Florida: American Alligator Vs. Burmese Python?

:snake: This is about the hottest topic the herp community is faced with since legislation to remove all non-native species from the United States, and while we all feel as though this will endager our rights to keep exotic animals as pets there is one ecological question that has yet to be discussed.

Without human intervention which species will own the everglades in 10 years? And by how great a margin?

I'm suspecting that if the number of Burmese in the evergades is true (100,000 animals) then in 10 years Burmese will outnumber Alligators 3:2. However, because I know that both the Burmese Python and the American Alligator are threatend species to varying degrees (BP = Near Threatened; AA = Least Concern) I will suspect that without human interference the Alligators will outnumber Burmese in the Evergales by a close 1:1.

I voted Burmese python, if you have seen that picture of the burm that exploded after eating a alligator, you know why, not to mention, alligators have lived there for centuries, and they havnt taken over yet, but the burms are a HUGE impact after a few years. :(

i have strong feeling that the infamous photo of the exploded burm was totally sensationalized by the media.

i highly doubt the burmese python exploded because of that gator. i think some people didn't realize that the head of that burmese python was missing as well...in addition to that big puncture wound where the gator was hanging out of. did that missing head just blow up too?

i think another big ol gator came along and chomped down on that snake.

man will rule the everglades in ten years more so than he does now.

I think the alligator will dominate over the python.

Think about how easy it is to catch one your snakes off guard. Snakes are ambush hunters and don't excel much in any other strategies so they are more vulnerable in my opinion.

alligators 4tw. sry.

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Originally Posted by redpython

i have strong feeling that the infamous photo of the exploded burm was totally sensationalized by the media.

i highly doubt the burmese python exploded because of that gator. i think some people didn't realize that the head of that burmese python was missing as well...in addition to that big puncture wound where the gator was hanging out of. did that missing head just blow up too?

i think another big ol gator came along and chomped down on that snake.

man will rule the everglades in ten years more so than he does now.

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i agree that man will dominate the everglades, if now wild hogs.... but thats another story

It depends. A large adult BP will own an alligator. It takes years for them to get to that size though. If humans don't step in then I say BP, if we step in then, AA.

I voted Gator. Sure the one photo gave it fame. But for that one photo of a Burm owning a Gator, there are more (although hard to find) of Gators owning Burms.

http://rattlergator.typepad.com/.a/6...2caebcd8833-pi

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Originally Posted by redpython

i have strong feeling that the infamous photo of the exploded burm was totally sensationalized by the media.

i highly doubt the burmese python exploded because of that gator. i think some people didn't realize that the head of that burmese python was missing as well...in addition to that big puncture wound where the gator was hanging out of. did that missing head just blow up too?

i think another big ol gator came along and chomped down on that snake.

man will rule the everglades in ten years more so than he does now.

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NatGeo did a special on this a couple years back. It was determined that after the Burm ate the Gator, another Gator came along and bit the head off the snake. Then the natural process of decomp caused the snakes bellly to rupture and expose the Gator inside.

man will never own the everglades! there is currently great acts going on right now to improve the everglades and surround areas. there will be great changes to try and restore the everglades the best we can with what we know. i know of several projects that are aimed at native animal renurishment and improvements in water flow. all human impact is minimalized in the area and building will never take place. the FL government just bought half of a huge sugar farm which will be returned to its natural state.

i voted burm. all of you miss an important ecological point with this animal. who cares if they eat each other!! thats not the problem. the problem is you have two very large predators in a small area. both gators and burms will go after similar prey items. this will put a strain on an already bleek ecosystem thus leading to one of two things to happen. here is a graph for that:(http://www.scholarpedia.org/wiki/ima...nsteadt_pp.jpg)
its not rocket science!! if you increase predators, you decreas prey!
either the predators will have to move which will be somewhat harder for a specialist predator (the gator; it needs water to live in) compared to a generalist predator. the humidity through out florida could easily substain the burm. temps....well it really doesn't get that cold but i assume that some northern range would be established during winters.
the other possiblity is extinction. as you increase the number of new species, you decrease the niches that species can live. this can be due to loss of prey or loss of habitat. here is a simple curve to show just that (http://ipmworld.umn.edu/chapters/ecology/Slide7.GIF).

now all of this is fine and dandy in a bubble! what if we have a drought next year? this year is a wet year. we are having a great wet season and everything is looking up. but wet years are usually followed by droughts! (http://www.appinsys.com/GlobalWarmin...s/image001.jpg). dry years are hard on aquatic animals!

there are several factors that can play out for this. it is not cut and dry as many of you believe. its a very complicated system and we usually don't know exactly what happened until its too late.

Populations of wild animals tend to limit themselves and plateau once they reach a certain level so that they don't eat all of their prey and then the whole species starves. Honestly, I don't think its as big of a deal as people say it is. Sure, something should be done to get these snakes under control, but I'm not worried about the wild population of animals.

Both snakes and gaters are ambush preditors, whoever strikes first would be the winner in that scenario. A snake would be no match for a gator's teeth and massive jaw pressure, and a gator would be no match for a burm's squeeze. Both animals have the ability to sit still for long periods of time and wait for their next meal.

I honestly think that this one picture of a burm "eating" a gator proves only that its possible, not that it is a common occurrence.

Although I voted for the Burmese, I think the Alligators might win. But the problem is that there a lot of big alligators in the Everglades already, and since burms just started living in there about 20 years ago, there is not going to be a lot of those monster sized burms, they are usually in the 5-9 feet range. The only way a burmese could win against an alligator is that the alligator is young and the burm is really big or if attacks the alligator before the alligator attacks it, but is then most likely the alligator will win.

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Originally Posted by knott00

Populations of wild animals tend to limit themselves and plateau once they reach a certain level so that they don't eat all of their prey and then the whole species starves. Honestly, I don't think its as big of a deal as people say it is. Sure, something should be done to get these snakes under control, but I'm not worried about the wild population of animals.

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this only works with natural populations. not populations with a introduced predator.

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Originally Posted by knott00

Both snakes and gaters are ambush preditors, whoever strikes first would be the winner in that scenario. A snake would be no match for a gator's teeth and massive jaw pressure, and a gator would be no match for a burm's squeeze. Both animals have the ability to sit still for long periods of time and wait for their next meal.

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the poll is who will own the everglades. not who will eat who.

Yes, this is about domination by numbers not one off senarios. I suspect after being reminded of some information I learned in Biology 1013 that the winner will be what ever species can carve out its own niche that the other can not move in on. In this circumstance I would say the Burm Would win becuase it can climb into trees and hunt effectivly on land. Alligators, on the otherhand, can hang out on land and not be bothered but wont get fed that way either.

None of the above.

Burms eat mainly mammals and birds. Alligators eat mainly fish and turtles--a point people tend to forget. Burms do not hunt in the water, usually--Alligators do. While burms would probably take some gators, more gators will eat burms--they'll make a nice food source for the gators, because they're not very fast on land OR water.

The alligator is supremely adapted to the Everglades, and it already eats snakes, albeit smaller ones. Because they are not direct competitors, but are fully capable of preying on each other, I see no reason why they won't both 'win'.

Thats a very good point

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

None of the above.

Burms eat mainly mammals and birds. Alligators eat mainly fish and turtles--a point people tend to forget. Burms do not hunt in the water, usually--Alligators do. While burms would probably take some gators, more gators will eat burms--they'll make a nice food source for the gators, because they're not very fast on land OR water.

The alligator is supremely adapted to the Everglades, and it already eats snakes, albeit smaller ones. Because they are not direct competitors, but are fully capable of preying on each other, I see no reason why they won't both 'win'.

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most of the burm sightings have been burms at the edge of the water or within the water. i have no doubt that they are sharing the same habitat. both animals will eat ANYTHING smaller than them. both are opportunistic hunters.

again people do your research before you comment! here is a disdribution map of invsavies. scroll down to the bottom and look at the recent sightings. (http://www.evergladescisma.org/distribution)

if you look more into it, the scientist that are working on the burm problem are saying that they hoped they gators would be eating more burms but this is not the case.

I think something else people forget is that were burms come from there may not be any alligators but there are many mugger crocodiles(and even some salties). Yes they are larger and faster then alligators but the mugger probably has the most in common with alligators then any other crocodiles. And burms have not taken over and wiped out the crocs, not even close. What would make this any different? Especially considering a large snake may only each 8 times a year in the wild, it would a lot less damage then an introduced mammal predator of similar size and prey choice.

Also I see a lot of people saying stuff like a 20ft burm can eat alligator because its bigger. Well in the animal kingdom length means crap, its all about who weighs more. A 20ft python can weight 300 pounds, well so can and 8ft alligator. Larger alligators are known to weigh as much as half a ton(500+ is more common)! Even if the burms in the glades grow to monster sizes they will still only be able to prey on smaller alligators and they themselves would be fair game for a predator that can weigh twice as much as an adult tiger!

Thats why I vote Alligator!

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

if you look more into it, the scientist that are working on the burm problem are saying that they hoped they gators would be eating more burms but this is not the case.

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Well maybe if people stoped killing off all the large 10-15ft gators they would have more monster gators eating monster snakes! If people were to disapear I feel that the ecosystem would right it's self to some degree. There'd be more and larger gators, more florida panthers, red wolves, more monster american crocs, more black bears, and less burms because of all the competition and predaton.

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Originally Posted by Brewster320

Well maybe if people stoped killing off all the large 10-15ft gators they would have more monster gators eating monster snakes! If people were to disapear I feel that the ecosystem would right it's self to some degree. There'd be more and larger gators, more florida panthers, red wolves, more monster american crocs, more black bears, and less burms because of all the competition and predaton.

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the everglades national park is a strict no hunt, no take zone without speical permiting. most permits are for scientific research and usually those do not include killing alligators. get for facts straight!

alligator hunting season for the rest of florida is short and a special permit is required in limited numbers.

Neither. Man will get land hungry and eventually take over the glades.

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Originally Posted by xXxFluffyEmoxXx

Neither. Man will get land hungry and eventually take over the glades.

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is that why the florida government just bought 73,000 acres of land from sugar and orange farmers in the everglades to restore it back to what it was with an option to purchase another 107,000 acres when florida's economy boosts back up.

you guys really need to stop putting your feet in your mouths over this. this is an area that most of you have no clue of what is actually going on. if you are going to make outlandish claims, at least try and research them!!!

even if they restore it it will never be what it was. "restoring" and "upkeeping" will be at the hand of man.

that farm land has become another man managed land...not natural.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

is that why the florida government just bought 73,000 acres of land from sugar and orange farmers in the everglades to restore it back to what it was with an option to purchase another 107,000 acres when florida's economy boosts back up.

you guys really need to stop putting your feet in your mouths over this. this is an area that most of you have no clue of what is actually going on. if you are going to make outlandish claims, at least try and research them!!!

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Originally Posted by redpython

even if they restore it it will never be what it was. "restoring" and "upkeeping" will be at the hand of man.

that farm land has become another man managed land...not natural.

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there you go again talking about something you know nothing of!

restoration projects are extremly successful here in florida. i have personally seen many of these and they look and have the species composition of similar habitats from surrounding areas. there is no "upkeep" once they have been restored so i have no idea where you pulled that one out of....im pretty sure though!!