Now What's Wrong?

This is our little BP's 6th week with us. The first 5 seemed fine. He was very thin and ate 5 mice with no problem during that time. One came only 2 days after the prior mouse because he seemed hungry, which he devoured. However, he's rejected food 3 times this past week, his last meal being about 10 days ago.

~Weighed 120g when we got him, currently 150g, which is 4g more than yesterday!

~We handle him only 2 or 3 times a week.

~Started intent daytime cruising 2 days ago and doing so again today, constantly looking upward at the screen cover and trying to get out. Today I had him in a paper grocery bag with the f/t mouse, with the tip folded down, and the little bugger came out! (The bag was inside his tank, with the screen on.) All he wants to do is escape.

~Other than sleeping in a hide, he's hardly ever on the ground these past 2 weeks, spending most of his time draped over the AcuRite, prior stuck-on thermometer, and on the tree.

~Has been in the warm hide only once in the past 3 or 4 days. Is that normal? Temps are 92-94 warm and 70-73 cool, humidity 60-70%. Those haven't changed the entire time we've had him. (Didn't even have a cool hide for the first 4 weeks with us, and so spent all its time in the warm tree hide.)

~ReptiBark substrate for all but 3 or 4 days of paper towels (I went back to the bark in case it was the paper towels bothering him).

~I've alternated between his regular tree hide and new plastic bowl over in the warm part in case it's the hide itself bothering him.

Nothing is making any difference. He's just constantly looking up at the screen. The only thing I haven't done yet is cover up the sides of the tank, but they've never been covered and he's been fine till now.

Any ideas?

How often do you offer him food? 3 times in one week seems too often

Is he star gazing? Or somewhat twisting his body in odd ways? Or both at the same time?
Well, what I was thinking that he may be wanting to mate, since males will refuse meals during breeding seasons which is coming up very soon. Some BPs can be finicky eaters, and a lot of the time the will go off feed for no reason at all. Your husbandry seems just fine, and I don't think anything is wrong with it at all. BPs can be easily stressed for a numerous amount of reasons, but it seems that your BP has no reason to be stressed. Also, when snakes are fed small meals, they will roam around the enclosure looking for more to eat. If you are feeding him a rodent about the same size as the middle part of his body, I dont see how he could possibly be searching for food.

Offering food too often can cause stress. If he refuses to eat don't offer again until his next feeding schedule.

Well, a baby snake will not be looking for a girlfriend so you can rule that out.

I would wait 5 days to offer him food and see if that makes a difference. Changing hides will cause a bit of stress. It would be better to just get two identical hides and stick to them.

Yes, I've offered food twice since the first refusal, thinking the daytime roaming was hunger. I'll hold off now for a week. Because it came to us so thin, I thought it would eat till finally reaching it's proper size (for whatever age it is.. 6-7 months?). I guess it's "full" now.

I read that males will go off food during breeding season if there's a female around; however, this is the only snake here, and we don't know if it's male or female. (I alternate between calling it "him" or "her".)

And since my last post, I've covered up the back and 2 sides of the tank.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Well, a baby snake will not be looking for a girlfriend so you can rule that out.

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Lol, well it was just a guess :P :)

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Originally Posted by Patricia

Yes, I've offered food twice since the first refusal, thinking the daytime roaming was hunger. I'll hold off now for a week. Because it came to us so thin, I thought it would eat till finally reaching it's proper size (for whatever age it is.. 6-7 months?). I guess it's "full" now.

I read that males will go off food during breeding season if there's a female around; however, this is the only snake here, and we don't know if it's male or female. (I alternate between calling it "him" or "her".)

And since my last post, I've covered up the back and 2 sides of the tank.

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Sounds like you are on the right track. Daytime roaming is usually a sign of stress. Just give him some space and see if that makes a difference. If he still doesn't eat in a week, you could try filling the tank with crumpled newspaper.

Is it possible he's going into shed? Two of my snakes reject food during shed, sometimes before I can even notice the signs. Look for a pink belly or cloudy eyes - otherwise I agree it could just be stress, and you should wait 7-10 days to offer again. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

Is it possible he's going into shed? Two of my snakes reject food during shed, sometimes before I can even notice the signs.

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Could be. It's been hard to tell these past few days if the belly is pink. The one time it's shed here, it ate with a pink belly and later when completely blue, probably because it was simply so hungry.

Perhaps it feels caught up with food intake. It's hard to tell why it's now behaving this way after a month of normal BP behavior of eating and hiding. This sounds contrary to everything I've read, but it seems like (a) it's become comfy with us to the point of not feeling the need to hide all the time, and (b) it knows there's a world beyond its 4 walls and wants to explore it. :confused:

How large is your tank? The cool side needs to be 80-82 degrees, the lower end of the 70's is far too cool. At 150 grams, he doesn't need to be in an enclosure any larger than 10 gallons at this point.

All his behaviors sound like stress related behaviors, including the refusal of food. A hatchling ball python, up to at least a year generally doesn't refuse food when not stressed, as it's in their best interest to grow as quickly as possible so as not to be prey themselves.

Have you reviewed the "Why won't my snake eat" portion of our ball python care sheet to rule out each reason one by one yet?

In order to settle him for now, I would recommend filling his tank with loosely crumpled newspaper, all the way to the brim. Not pretty, but it helps to settle a stressed out snake, especially a baby, by allowing him to feel something touching him on all sides. Don't handle for at least a week, and after a week, drop in a live small mouse (in his enclosure, with the newspaper still in there). Walk away, check back in 30 minutes. The mouse should be gone.

At that point, you can begin to "wean" him of the newspaper, by removing a piece or two, every 5th day or so.

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Originally Posted by Patricia

(a) it's become comfy with us to the point of not feeling the need to hide all the time, and (b) it knows there's a world beyond its 4 walls and wants to explore it. :confused:

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Constant roaming isn't curiosity about its environment or its comfort level with its keepers, it's a clear stress related indicator. A content ball python is one that is rarely seen outside of its hide during day light hours, only coming out to casually cruise its enclosure during the evenings.

The behaviors that you have described are of a ball python that's looking for weaknesses in its enclosure in order to try to escape (the constant climbing up the walls).

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Originally Posted by rabernet

How large is your tank? The cool side needs to be 80-82 degrees, the lower end of the 70's is far too cool. At 150 grams, he doesn't need to be in an enclosure any larger than 10 gallons at this point.

All his behaviors sound like stress related behaviors, including the refusal of food. A hatchling ball python, up to at least a year generally doesn't refuse food when not stressed, as it's in their best interest to grow as quickly as possible so as not to be prey themselves.

Have you reviewed the "Why won't my snake eat" portion of our ball python care sheet to rule out each reason one by one yet?

In order to settle him for now, I would recommend filling his tank with loosely crumpled newspaper, all the way to the brim. Not pretty, but it helps to settle a stressed out snake, especially a baby, by allowing him to feel something touching him on all sides. Don't handle for at least a week, and after a week, drop in a live small mouse (in his enclosure, with the newspaper still in there). Walk away, check back in 30 minutes. The mouse should be gone.

At that point, you can begin to "wean" him of the newspaper, by removing a piece or two, every 5th day or so.

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That seems like a really effective way. Always gotta take things slow, especially with a BP since most stress easily. I find my BP stressing out the most when outside. For some reason, she hates being outside. Maybe it's because of the low humidity and dry air as well as hot temps (though I NEVER EVER take her out if it's over 95F outside, the Arizona sun would cook her alive right in my hands).

Sounds like stress to me, and that he is trying to escape from it. You could try either moving him into a smaller enclosure or covering the sides and back of the tank to make him feel more secure.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

How large is your tank? The cool side needs to be 80-82 degrees, the lower end of the 70's is far too cool. At 150 grams, he doesn't need to be in an enclosure any larger than 10 gallons at this point. Have you reviewed the "Why won't my snake eat" portion of our ball python care sheet to rule out each reason one by one yet?

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The tank is 10 gallons. Yes, I've read through that care sheet and we seem to OK on all the points, except for the cool temp. That is a problem because if we use the overhead heating lamp, the humidity drops from 70ish% to about 40ish%. How else can we raise that end to 80 degrees?

HOWEVAH... our snake has been in the cool hide for nearly a week now. I'll start a separate thread to ask about that.

The belly is definitely pink, so perhaps that's the reason for not eating. However, it's been devouring its food up till this past week during its prior shed, with the low temp in the 70s, and with everything as it's been. These stress symptoms seemed to have come from out of nowhere. :(

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The behaviors that you have described are of a ball python that's looking for weaknesses in its enclosure in order to try to escape (the constant climbing up the walls).

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That's exactly what it looks like. I'll try your suggestion of crumpled newspapers. Thanks!

Hmm well not sure if my info will help but here it goes.

My 2 babies (normal and pastel) are just under 3 months. They weight 240~ as of now. empty stomach and one has pooped recently. They eat every 5 days. They havent refused a meal.

My snakes are on 28qt tubs with 11inch heat tape. Tstat is set to 97, 93~ inside hide. Cool side is around 80~ usualy. Humidity is high always, around 70% I live in florida, I have a hard time trying to keep it down.

The babies are not fat. But they seem to have grown long in a short time. I feel bad when you say yours weight 150 :(.

What are you feeding it? and what size?

I hope this helps. :please:

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Originally Posted by Danounet

I feel bad when you say yours weight 150 :(.
What are you feeding it? and what size?

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Don't feel bad, it came to us around 120g (or less, since that was after its first meal here), so thin it was shaped more like an eel than a BP. It's filled out nicely and has shed since we've had it. That's why I'm surprised it's stopped eating, unless it's "full" from catching up quickly.

We're feeding f/t mice from Petsmart. I weigh each one and write the weight on its baggie. Hoppers were too small, and medium mice seemed much better. The last one it ate was the biggest, at 18g. I've since bought a pack of bigger mice, with the smallest being 18g. It has crossed my mind that this current mouse being rejected might appear too big. (That last one it ate, 18g, took nearly 1¾ hours to position and swallow.)

Thats what they were eating when mine were that small. Sometimes a little bigger. I dont know what to say, Maybe he is just full. But that doesnt explain the roaming.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

In order to settle him for now, I would recommend filling his tank with loosely crumpled newspaper, all the way to the brim.

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I went only as high as the AcuRite so we can keep an eye on temps. This picture was taken a few minutes ago (1:20pm) and there's Patriot, out already, on top of the newspapers and climbing to his usual corner. :::sigh:::

(How do you keep the newspapers out of the water dish? Our dish is a low, shallow one.)
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z...m/100_3393.jpg

I sort of placed it around the dish. Fill it all the way to the top with the newspaper - I know - it's ugly, but it really does work - it's a Kevin McCurley trick that's been passed on from keeper to keeper!

Try a tub maybe? Sometimes they can get bp's to calm down since they aren't nearly as high. Worked for my bp.

By no means am I an experienced herper, but I think the first thing you need to do is get the temperature gradient right. Temps in the low 70s aren't really what you want. I used a reptile lamp with my girl for a while (in a tub though) and never had an issue with humidity. I had the lamp positioned about 8-16" above the top of the tub, which I think prevented some of the moisture from being sucked out. Also, you could try covering a portion of the screen with aluminum foil to trap some of that humidity in there. Once you have husbandry nailed, I'd leave the little squirt alone for 5-7 days. The newspaper trick sounds pretty neat and is apparently tried and true. Good luck with the little guy/girl and keep us posted. Hopefully it'll be back to normal in no time.
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Thanks, folks. I'll find a way to raise the cool temp while maintaining humidity. (Most of the top screen is covered by a towel to help with humidity.)

I've now draped a towel over the entire top and front, which aren't already covered up, so that it has total seclusion.

:(

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Originally Posted by rabernet

it's ugly, but it really does work - it's a Kevin McCurley trick that's been passed on from keeper to keeper!

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Robin, THANK YOU!!! I don't know if it's the newspaper, having the entire tank covered like a bird cage, or a combination of the two, but it's WORKING!!!

When I peeked around 6 hours ago, and now at midnight removing the covering, there's no BP climbing the walls. Patriot is not only in his hide, but he's in the WARM one, which he hasn't been in in days!

A question: How do you manage to fill the tank with newspapers while keeping them out of the water? When I looked both earlier and again now, those pieces around it were dripping wet, which I replaced. If this is an effort to keep him left alone with no disturbance so as to calm down, having to lift the cover off to replace newspaper several times a day is backfiring.

Oh, and with the entire screen being covered for a few hours, the humidity is at 78% now!

That is awesome! You could just leave the part where the water dish is empty, and fill it up all around. Next feeding day, drop in an appropriately sized live mouse (or rat, if that's what you're feeding), walk away and check back in 1/2 an hour. It should be gone!

I'm glad to hear that the paper has helped to settle him down (I knew it would though! ;) )

Please keep us posted!

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Originally Posted by Danounet

I feel bad when you say yours weight 150 :(.

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Woohoo, Patriot has finally reached 200g!!! (Which is nearly double the size of when he came to us.) He's gained around 4" in length too (26"), but his girth now seems sooooooo much bigger. And especially since he shed a couple of days ago (90% intact, long "stocking), the new brightness combined with the new size is just "WOW!" We can hardly take our eyes off him! :banana:

And oh, those crumpled newspapers are still in there. He's been perfectly content ever since they were added and becomes very uneasy when exposed (e.g. when being held), so they just might be permanent!

Here's our growing, glowing one:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z...100_4463Cr.jpg

Congratulations! :gj:

Have you considered moving him to an opaque tube? I mean you cant even see him anymore with the newspaper in there now anyways lol. :P

He would probably be less stressed in a tub. I use 28qt sterilite for all mine, but being as he has open space issues, maybe a 15-16qt? unless he is too big for those, hard to tell. Anyways, just an idea. :)

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Originally Posted by Danounet

I mean you cant even see him anymore with the newspaper in there now anyways lol.

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We can still see him in the hides, or at least which hide he's in! For pictures, I just remove a piece or two of newspaper, click-click-click, then put the newspaper back. Yesterday I posted the video I took of him shedding, where you can see the newspapers around him. The clear gap where he was visible to the camera was where a piece had been removed just during filming.

Thanks... I'm so happy about how he's growing. At first it took him forever to position and swallow a mouse, and his first shed with us left several pieces stuck on. Now he seems to have become more efficient at both eating and shedding. Filling out nicely, hiding contentedly... all is well in his little world. :)

They can be really funny when they don't like something, and it can be really hard to guess what it is, sometimes.

I had a hatchling last year that roamed constantly and wouldn't feed. I tried newspapers, and other tricks, and finally, I decided to play a hunch.
I moved him into a LARGER container. He stopped roaming and went into his hide, and ate the next day. <lol>