Do YOU think there's anything wrong with this set-up?

I've heard a lot of contradictory information regarding what a good set-up for a ball python is like. Now, I've been keeping snakes for about five years or so, and I've never had any significant problems except for one escapee when the snake was not in my care (I got her back), and one 4-week fast during the winter by a female. I would like to know if YOU, personally, have ever had any first-hand experience or have been told by anybody you personally know about health problems resulting from the following things:

- Keeping ball pythons on calci-sand substrate
- Using heat lamps rather than under tank heaters
- Feeding a ball python mice it's entire life (this one has to do with me personally. The pet shop I used to get feeder rats from recently went out of business and now I can only get mice, and one of my BP's will NOT take frozen/thawed, only pre-killed at best).
- Not using a thermostat, only a thermometer, to monitor and (manually) control temperature.

I have heard that heat lamps suck the humidity out of the air, but I have also heard that the only thing bp's need humidity for is for shedding, and that REALLY low humidity can caused RI's (I heard that happened to one guy who's top drawer in a rack system was right near a heat vent). I use heat lamps, have never had RI's, and my animals shed in whole pieces every time. I up the humidity when they start hazing up by putting a damp towel over the screen top.

I don't have a thermostat, I can't afford one (and because I have 2 seperate tanks and no rack system, I would need 2 of them, one for each animal). I was told by the breeder who sold me my first snake 5 years ago that they are hardy animals that can tolerate moderate temperature fluccuations (being that they're wild animals, I wouldn't be surprised). In california during the day, the temperature in my room is a static 92 degrees, and at night it's 78 at the coolest. During the winter, the heat lamps keep the temperatures between 87 and 91, with very mild dips and spikes. Have you ever heard of serious medical conditions resulting from the lack of a thermostat?

I like the way sand looks. I read in a magazine recently that it can irritate the scales of non-desert snakes and cause scale rot. Since reading that, I switched them both to paper towels, but I'm quite fond of the aesthetics of my enclosures and I miss the sand. Would it be really terrible to switch back? Is the risk of scale rot from sand alone very high?

thank you for any and all feedback.

If what you are doing is meeting the husbandry requirements, then everything is fine.
-Your Humidity is is 50%-60%
-Temp Gradient 80% on cool side 92% on the warm side
-Identicle hides

Honestly, I don't think the need for a T-stat is nearly as great with a heatlamp as it is with a UTH. Especially if you're using a lower wattage bulb. The chances of your temp going too high because of your lamp are pretty small as long as you don't have it on all day during the summer.

I personally prefer a UTH though. I don't have to worry about the humidity in my tank at all. My humidity is perfect with the size of the water bowl I have in my enclosure and my substrate. Also, having belly heat helps the snake with digestion.

As for the sand, I would really avoid it. The sand substrat is for your pleasure and it can harm the snake. If I were you I'd find a different substrat that looks nice and use that instead. Coconut husk, reptibark, aspen are all decent choices. Just steer clear of pine and cedar. They will kill your snake.

I'm not so sure about the sand thing either but if you arent satisfied with the paper towels you could try Aspen bedding.., Repti Bark, or that Eco Earth Compressed coconut fiber stuff, usually sold like a brick that you'd put in hot water to expand but need to let it dry after.


Not having a thermostat 'can' lead to some serious medical problems if left unattended in the case of UTH the snake could be burned from the pad becomming far to hot, but you said your using heat lamps I'm not fully sure about how the thermostat works with heat lamps but if you found the right wattage of bulb I would -think- a thermostat wouldnt be be needed as if it got too warm the snake would just move, but if it always stays on the cool side perhaps it is too warm...but Dont quote me on that. In getting a thermostat you wouldnt have to get two assuming both of the snakes are ball pythons they would both have the same heat requirements and such a lot of thermostats have at least 2 outlets to plug stuff into them.

For the the topic of feeding mice all its life, thats just prefrence..if your snake eats it then its good to go, some people just perfer rats over mice cause they are bigger and they possibly have breeding plans down the road and feeding rats usualy helps the snakes put on a little more wieght over time vs. mice feedings

Use aspen or cypress, no cedar. If no themostats, use a dimmer switch(HD,lowes $10) hooked to a UTH on warm side and pick up an accurite from stores mentioned, $10(probe under warm side hide and unit in cool side).

Place a hand towel on top and wet it as needed. This wil give you a 20% pump in humidity if neccesary. You can use a lamp on the cool side with a dimmer to maintain the 80deg but it has has to be adjustable. Better to have all you heat sources adjustable. And you only need one bulb,red,rumor is they can't see it. Tanks are a little more work than tubs, but thats the price to display your animals.

No sand, it can be ingested, get in under scales and cause trouble, a whole number of things. Use Aspen or Cypress instead.

Thermostats do not always mean $100 expenditures. There are those you can get for $20 or so, the ZooMed ReptiTemp 500R being the best of them, that work just fine until you can save up the $80 for a Johnson or Ranco.

To help the tanks work their best, be sure to cover the back and both sides with background, and then with an insulating material like cork or foam board. Also, towels can harbor mold and bacteria, so covering your screens with foil or plexiglass is the best way to keep the humidity stable. :)

No offense, but if you can't afford a thermostat you probably shouldn't be keeping pets. Any animal can get sick and require a visit to the vet. At the low end you are look at $50+ and in some cases several hundred dollars. Maybe you should think about putting some money into a savings account a little at a time in case one day something does happen.

As far as heating, you can get a decent thermostat for less than $30 or so and a section of flexwatt already wired for about $10. At the very least you can buy a $10 rheostat(light dimmer) from walmart that will be acceptable if your room temperature doesn't fluctuate more than 5-8 degrees. On my tank I use a UTH I bought before I knew about flexwatt and it doesn't provide enough heat for night. The tstat controls it during the day to regulate the temps, but at night I turn on a night heat lamp(low wattage purple) to compensate.

As for humidity you can cover about 2/3 of the screen top in foil and adjust your water bowl size. This works for me to keep around 55% humidity all the time. During shed I mist once every day or 2 to keep it at 70%.

For substrate aspen is cheap, dust free, and looks decent.

Keep in mind, without a way to regulate your temps you could bake your snake. If your A/C decides to quit during the summer while no one is around your lamp could easily reach into the 100s. All it takes is one time to kill your snakes. So maybe party a little less, hold out on those new clothes, or whatever you can get by without to save a little cash for your living animals. It's not a large monthy investment, just once unless something breaks.

Calcium sand is irritating and drying--not good for ball pythons. It could lead to skin problems and bad sheds.

Heat lamps may burn the animal if not set up correctly, but the primary issue is that they make it more difficult to keep humidity up--which can lead to stuck sheds, which lead to skin problems or even blindness if not addressed. If you can keep the humidity at 60% with a heat lamp, and the lamp is the right distance from the animal and the animal can't access it and be burned, it is fine, but you should use a red or blue heat light so you don't disturb the animal at night.

Get a thermostat. Ball pythons aren't that hardy when it comes to bouncing temps, and they come from equatorial regions where they hide out underground when the temperature fluctuates. A thermostat is really not optional if you want to keep the animal healthy. Even with ideal conditions, these guys can be prone to respiratory infections and mouth infections if stressed, so don't risk it further by providing less than ideal conditions.

The mice are fine, as long as the snake will eat a few at a time, rather than just one at a time. Monitor the snake's weight carefully. Snakes grow very slowly after they are about 3 or 4 years old, but they do keep growing. Weight should maintain and rise slowly over a year once they are grown. If the snake is losing weight, you need to feed it more--either more mice, or feed more often. The total weight of the feeders is what is important, rather than their species.

Another thing about calcium sand is that it clumps when moist. I don't know if there is a big concern about snakes ingesting sand when they stick out their tongue, but it is a big concern with bearded dragons. If ingested, the sand clumps like cement in their intestines and stomach, which can cause severe and even fatal impactions.

I've seen autopsy photos and x-rays of a BD that had calcium sand blocking up the inner works...pretty nasty stuff.

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Originally Posted by Nasubi77

Another thing about calcium sand is that it clumps when moist. I don't know if there is a big concern about snakes ingesting sand when they stick out their tongue, but it is a big concern with bearded dragons. If ingested, the sand clumps like cement in their intestines and stomach, which can cause severe and even fatal impactions.

I've seen autopsy photos and x-rays of a BD that had calcium sand blocking up the inner works...pretty nasty stuff.

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I'm unsure if this would pose a problem for a BP as long as it makes it to the BPs stomach. Their acid is strong enough to dissolve bone and teeth, so I dunno if a little sand would be a problem for acid like that.

Okay, thanks everybody. I wont be switching back to the sand because I was noticing it getting under his scales. The reason I was reluctant to switch to wood chips or anything like that is because i've heard that they house mites and infect the snakes. He's on paper towel for the time-being. Also I wasn't sure about the heat tape because I'd rather not risk them burning themselves. (I own one, but I don't trust it :/ )

And that thing about me being too poor to keep the snakes, you needn't worry. I take them to the vet regularly and I know for a fact the temps don't get dangerous in there. (I dont even use the heat lamps in the summer because we're cheap and don't use the A/C. No danger of the AC turning off and frying them.) Technically, I could afford a thermostat, but I felt it's an unneccisary expenditure, which I still think it is. I could see how they would be important for people with rack systems containing 10 or up snakes, but being that I don't have a huge collection like that, I can stay focused on my two babies and be completely sure they're alright. I think I'm pretty attentive and I would notice, and change things if I thought something was seriously wrong.

Also there's one last thing I'm wondering: How come it seems people are so insistant that ball pythons NEED two identical hides, until they're in rack systems? I've never heard of somebody having two hides for each snake in a rack system, sometimes not even one (i.e. ralph davis).

I am not so sure about the sand thing, but what i use for substrate is crushed walnut.... same kind of set up like sand, but I knwo that the BP can digest it and it will pass all the way through. Also it seems to stop odors.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Okay, thanks everybody. I wont be switching back to the sand because I was noticing it getting under his scales. The reason I was reluctant to switch to wood chips or anything like that is because i've heard that they house mites and infect the snakes. He's on paper towel for the time-being. Also I wasn't sure about the heat tape because I'd rather not risk them burning themselves. (I own one, but I don't trust it :/ )

And that thing about me being too poor to keep the snakes, you needn't worry. I take them to the vet regularly and I know for a fact the temps don't get dangerous in there. (I dont even use the heat lamps in the summer because we're cheap and don't use the A/C. No danger of the AC turning off and frying them.) Technically, I could afford a thermostat, but I felt it's an unneccisary expenditure, which I still think it is. I could see how they would be important for people with rack systems containing 10 or up snakes, but being that I don't have a huge collection like that, I can stay focused on my two babies and be completely sure they're alright. I think I'm pretty attentive and I would notice, and change things if I thought something was seriously wrong.

Also there's one last thing I'm wondering: How come it seems people are so insistant that ball pythons NEED two identical hides, until they're in rack systems? I've never heard of somebody having two hides for each snake in a rack system, sometimes not even one (i.e. ralph davis).

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Identicle hides?? what are those?... seriously, I am on the same level on that one.... there are six hides in my tank, and then three bushes also... I think ....lets see there are two rock hides, two gerbail hides, and two bowls that are upside down... :rolleyes:

The reason we recommend two, identical hides is because a bp will often choose saftey over temperature. You don't want them going into a 100 degree hide just because it feels safer. With identical hides, you are controlling the bp's environment so the temp difference is the only variable.

Yes, yes, I know the reason we have them in tanks. It's just one of the silly, quirky things I've noticed about ball python husbandry. The double hides is of utmost importance, unless of course they're in a rack system. Then for some reason it doesn't seem to matter at all anymore and is never mentioned. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Ash

Yes, yes, I know the reason we have them in tanks. It's just one of the silly, quirky things I've noticed about ball python husbandry. The double hides is of utmost importance, unless of course they're in a rack system. Then for some reason it doesn't seem to matter at all anymore and is never mentioned. :rolleyes:

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Because racks are much darker than a tank so there really isn't a need for 2 hides.

In a rack, the entire back of the bin is dark and hides often aren't necessary at all. I only use hides in my racks with young snakes, or with extremely shy individuals that won't eat without having one.

The thermostat is the most important piece of equipment you can have, second to the heat source itself. I stand by that statement. It keeps the temperature perfectly stable, and as a result, it puts the least amount of stress on the animal. The animal always knows where to go to reach a certain temperature in its body. As a result, the animal's health is optimized. No more worrying that temperatures may spike or fall if you aren't around to watch. No more guessing, or estimating. It's the right thing to do. I would not sell an animal to someone who did not have at LEAST a rheostat and thermometer in a home with stable temperatures--otherwise, I would insist they have a thermostat first. Everything I have learned since I began keeping reptiles has underscored how vitally important stable temperatures are.

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Originally Posted by Ash

- Keeping ball pythons on calci-sand substrate
- Using heat lamps rather than under tank heaters
- Feeding a ball python mice it's entire life (this one has to do with me personally. The pet shop I used to get feeder rats from recently went out of business and now I can only get mice, and one of my BP's will NOT take frozen/thawed, only pre-killed at best).
- Not using a thermostat, only a thermometer, to monitor and (manually) control temperature.

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1- Keeping BPs on Calci-Sand will cause impaction. It also does not hold humidity in at all. Paper towels is best to use and cheap. If you don't want to use them no more, I would suggest Aspen Bedding, Sani Chips, or Cypress Mulch. Never use sand. It's too dry for a BP and BPs need the humidity. They live in the jungle in Africa, and it is humid and hot there. Their humidity level needs to be between 50%-60%, and 70% when shedding.

2- I use heat lamps, and no longer have a problem with them. Temps stay between 90F-93F on the hot side. It's best to use UTHs because BPs need the belly heat to properly digest their meals. I will soon be switching over to UTHs, and most likely be using dimmers.

3- Rats are larger than mice, and will fill up an adult BP. You don't have to feed a BP rats, but it would be best because they get pretty thick and will need something about the size of the middle part of their body to fill them up. I'm switching my female BP to probably f/t rat crawlers, as well as my King snake. My Dumeril's boa is already eating rat crawlers and isn't as thick as my BP.

4- Of course I have a thermometer, and every snake/reptile/amphibian owner should. It's to tell you the temperatures of the enclosure, which is very important because your tank could be too cold (the BP could get RI from being too cold) or it could get too warm (cooking your snake under the heat lamp/UTH). So having a thermometer is a must. Also, having a thermostat is a must. It's to control your temps so they stay right where you want them to. Using a dimmer wouldn't be bad, it would control how hot and how cold you want your enclosure by dimming the light. For my light, I use an infrared heat bulb. You can leave it on 24 hours, but always make sure it is not too hot in the enclosure.

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

4- Of course I have a thermometer, and every snake/reptile/amphibian owner should. It's to tell you the temperatures of the enclosure, .

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did you really think that the op didnt know what a thermometer was for?

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

3- Rats are larger than mice, and will fill up an adult BP. You don't have to feed a BP rats, but it would be best because they get pretty thick and will need something about the size of the middle part of their body to fill them up.

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This isn't entirely accurate. Once your bp is an adult, you don't need to feed them something the same width as their body. They generally never need anything larger than a small-medium rat. Consider that they eat ASF's in the wild and they don't get anywhere near as large as a norway rat. My largest females are all over 2000g and still only get ~100-150gms of rat/mice/asf per week.

OP, multiple mice are perfectly fine to feed. It is just more time consuming for the keeper than feeding one larger prey item.

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Originally Posted by Ash

- Keeping ball pythons on calci-sand substrate

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This I haven't tried, since I find newspaper or paper towels easier & cheaper (plus I'm allergic to anything wood-based). But the only thing I've heard about sand is that a BP can accidentally ingest it... :confused:

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- Using heat lamps rather than under tank heaters

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My pastel has always lived in a wooden/glass enclosure with a heat lamp, since the base is too thick for a UTH... so far it hasn't been a problem, except that it's a little tough to keep the humidity at 70+ during a shed. But otherwise my temps & humidity are always perfect, and he's a very healthy guy. :)

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- Feeding a ball python mice it's entire life (this one has to do with me personally. The pet shop I used to get feeder rats from recently went out of business and now I can only get mice, and one of my BP's will NOT take frozen/thawed, only pre-killed at best).

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My Delilah is a mouse-only girl, and will reject rats of any size, frozen or live. We tried, but she just hates them! So for now she gets 2 adult mice per week, and I guess we'll add more as she grows. I asked once if that was healthy, and got responses that it's fine for them to live on mice - as long as the size & amount are appropriate.

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- Not using a thermostat, only a thermometer, to monitor and (manually) control temperature.

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I can't afford thermostats at this time, so I only use dimmers to control the heat (and Acu-rite digital units to monitor). If your inside temperatures are fairly stable, as mine are, this shouldn't cause a major problem. I think thermostats are only necessary if you have major fluctuations, like somebody who lives in a seasonal climate without A/C or central heat.

Bottom line - Not everyone will use the same exact methods, and as long as the snake's needs are being met, that should be alright. We all probably adjust things to suit our lifestyles/preferences, and there's nothing wrong with that! I'm sure everything you listed is the BEST way to care for them, but it's certainly not the ONLY way. ;)

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Originally Posted by k2l3d4

I am not so sure about the sand thing, but what i use for substrate is crushed walnut.... same kind of set up like sand, but I knwo that the BP can digest it and it will pass all the way through. Also it seems to stop odors.

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Crushed walnut shells cut your snakes intestines on the way down.

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Originally Posted by DustinB

No offense, but if you can't afford a thermostat you probably shouldn't be keeping pets. Any animal can get sick and require a visit to the vet. At the low end you are look at $50+ and in some cases several hundred dollars. Maybe you should think about putting some money into a savings account a little at a time in case one day something does happen.

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I can't speak for the original poster, but as for myself... it's not that I don't have money, it's just that I can't justify spending extra when something cheaper works fine. If one of my pets - of any species - needs veterinary care, that is a completely different situation. I have emergency credit cards, savings, and even parents as a last resort... hate to admit it, but my mother paid the $800 bill when my dog ate a poisonous plant. :oops:

My point is that just because someone says "I can't afford this-or-that," don't assume they aren't prepared for an emergency. Some people have different budgets/resources for separate things, and can usually come up with money for the important stuff. Otherwise, I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying. ;)

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

My point is that just because someone says "I can't afford this-or-that," don't assume they aren't prepared for an emergency. Some people have different budgets/resources for separate things, and can usually come up with money for the important stuff. Otherwise, I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying. ;)

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How am I not supposed to assume? If someone says they can't "afford" a $40 thermostat then that generally means there's no money for vet bills. If they said can't "justify" paying that, then that's different. I don't see a problem with a rheostat over a t-stat if someone chooses and it works. Just me personally, I prefer to use both at the same time. Rheostat set slight higher incase the tstat fails one day. I don't have alot of money, but I make sure my animals have the absolute best care possible.

As for backup sources to go to a vet, what if the parents or friends don't have the cash or your cards are filled with the unexpected car repairs you had to pay? I feel that since "you" are caring for a live animal, "you" should have the ability to take care of it at any time.

Just my opinion...

Thanks lolo76. That is exactly what I meant. Yes, I have the money for it available. But nobody that I know would spend $40 - $100 on something that they didn't think was absolutely necessary.

And to Dustin - We have a big enough 'buffer zone' of cash to cover a $50 vet visit, regardless of what happens. Anybody who can't come up with $50 after unexpected car repairs shouldn't have any animal depending on them, I agree with you there. However, I don't appreciate being told I shouldn't have my snakes just because I'm not prepared to invest in a thermostat. I spend plenty of time, energy and money on them as is. I do appreciate your input, though. I know you're only concerned for the animals. :)

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Originally Posted by Ash

Thanks lolo76. That is exactly what I meant. Yes, I have the money for it available. But nobody that I know would spend $40 - $100 on something that they didn't think was absolutely necessary.

And to Dustin - We have a big enough 'buffer zone' of cash to cover a $50 vet visit, regardless of what happens. Anybody who can't come up with $50 after unexpected car repairs shouldn't have any animal depending on them, I agree with you there. However, I don't appreciate being told I shouldn't have my snakes just because I'm not prepared to invest in a thermostat. I spend plenty of time, energy and money on them as is. I do appreciate your input, though. I know you're only concerned for the animals. :)

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I mean everybody is different. I have those fluker thermometer/hydrometer to measure, but I don't have it on a T-stat with a probe. I have $5 dimmer switchs from lowes, with a UTH on the bottom that stays on, and a heat lamp that I control the temp with. I had a BAH-1000 system but I honestly didn't like it, and I sold it on here. It fluxuated -3/+3 degrees of what you set it to, and the snake constantly would knock it down.

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Originally Posted by Neal

I mean everybody is different. I have those fluker thermometer/hydrometer to measure, but I don't have it on a T-stat with a probe.

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yupyup, I have one of those too.

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Originally Posted by Ash

yupyup, I have one of those too.

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They work great, and I even borrowed a friends temp gun, the temps are accurate. Just be careful not to spill water on them, you can mist them but water kills them(I thought they were waterproof at first). You don't need an expensive setup, as long as you monitor everything and know when to make changes/adjustments.

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Originally Posted by DustinB

How am I not supposed to assume? If someone says they can't "afford" a $40 thermostat then that generally means there's no money for vet bills. If they said can't "justify" paying that, then that's different. I don't see a problem with a rheostat over a t-stat if someone chooses and it works. Just me personally, I prefer to use both at the same time. Rheostat set slight higher incase the tstat fails one day. I don't have alot of money, but I make sure my animals have the absolute best care possible.

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Bad choice of words, I guess... but either way, I think anyone responsible would have a back-up plan for emergencies.

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As for backup sources to go to a vet, what if the parents or friends don't have the cash or your cards are filled with the unexpected car repairs you had to pay? I feel that since "you" are caring for a live animal, "you" should have the ability to take care of it at any time.

Just my opinion...

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Well, I personally won't have that problem, for reasons there's no need to explain on here. But I do agree, if there's ANY chance you won't be able to cover an emergency, you shouldn't have a pet. Although most vets are willing to work with their clients, and will do a payment plan in dire situations. Pet insurance is great too! :gj:

about overall husbandry of a ball python.. MANY things are simply HIGHLY recommended. i did very little research b4 i bought my first bp, and i had it in a 40 g tank, no t stat (didnt kno wut they were), 2 half logs as hides (not identical), a heat lamp as WELL as a heat pad, and it was just a bare tank, so no covering of the sides... my bp didnt eat bc of stuck eye caps so i got rid of the heat lamp (to assist in shed), and soaked my bp, and it was NEVER like that again. it ate, it shed PERFECTLY.

with nothing but messups in my husbandry, aside from the heat lamp sucking out my moisture (didnt think about that at ALL), as soon as i got rid of that, everything was great. actually, a comment i got on one of my posts wondering about how my husbandry was:
"Well if she is eating for you and shedding ok I wouldn't say there was a massive pressure to change anything."

although he offered some suggestions, its true.. it was eating for me, and shedding properly, hiding all day, only at night she would swap hides (idk y LOL), and everything was fine.

so i would just pass that quote to u, but i would also re-consider the t-stat thing. if u got one, u wouldnt rly think about the dangers of a heat pad bc it's regulated.

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Originally Posted by Ash

However, I don't appreciate being told I shouldn't have my snakes just because I'm not prepared to invest in a thermostat. I spend plenty of time, energy and money on them as is. I do appreciate your input, though. I know you're only concerned for the animals. :)

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I never stated you shouldn't have snakes because you weren't "prepared" to invest in a t-stat. I only stated that because you said you couldn't "afford" one in your first post. As I said in my previous post, even a $10 light dimmer is ok with me if it works, as long as there was some way to regulate the heat. I just personally opt to go all out. Your posts are going from not being able to afford one to not being able to justify the cost... 2 very different things.

There's lot of ways to go about caring for animals, expensive ways and cheap ways. As long as the animal has proper care then thats just fine.