Are morphs endless??

I've been sitting here looking at pictures of some of my favorite morphs (toffees, bananas, pieds...the list goes on!) and I started thinking about where the natural ball python morphs will end. I'm not talking about all the different morph combinations that can be made in captivity... I'm asking what are everyone's thoughts on the new morphs that are made in the wild in Africa and shipped over here in wholesale lots or other ways?

How many more years do you think natural morphs produced in the wild will continue to hatch and be brought over to the US? Will different mutations continue to arise forever??


I guess I'm just having one of the awestruck moments where I just can't believe how amazing some of these Ball Python morphs are and I wanted to get anyone else's views...

it basicly could never end. its nature at anytime anything can cause a genetic change in a few bps.

Snakes in the wild and snakes bred in captivity will probably always be making new morphs. I think it wouldn't stop since many breeders are trying to come up with more and more different morphs each year. Some of the extraordinary morphs produced in captivity are banana clowns and panda pieds. Panda pieds are worth.. maybe 20k at the most (that's what I was told..)? And banana clowns are worth a good 40k. Just image how many more morphs will be created and how much the value of that morph will be. One day, I know there will be some amazing morph costing AT LEAST 100k.

A morph is essentially a genetic quirk. So basically, yes, morphs are endless. However subtle, there are differences between ball pythons, and each one of those subtle differences could lead to an even more dramatic difference.

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

Snakes in the wild and snakes bred in captivity will probably always be making new morphs. I think it wouldn't stop since many breeders are trying to come up with more and more different morphs each year. Some of the extraordinary morphs produced in captivity are banana clowns and panda pieds. Panda pieds are worth.. maybe 20k at the most (that's what I was told..)? And banana clowns are worth a good 40k. Just image how many more morphs will be created and how much the value of that morph will be. One day, I know there will be some amazing morph costing AT LEAST 100k.

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Dreamsicle?

i dont get morphs... well i do..

Im not sure how the whole breeding thing works becuase people pay a bunch for a morph then when you breed them and make more technically it should make them less valuable since they arent as rare anymore. Seriously who can honestly say that ANY snake should be worth or cost $40,000
or even 20,000.

:dead:

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Originally Posted by I<3Dreamsicles

Dreamsicle?

i dont get morphs... well i do..

Im not sure how the whole breeding thing works becuase people pay a bunch for a morph then when you breed them and make more technically it should make them less valuable since they arent as rare anymore. Seriously who can honestly say that ANY snake should be worth or cost $40,000
or even 20,000.

:dead:

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Why is art so expensive? Why is a big piece of cloth stretched over a wooden frame with random splotches of pigmentation slapped onto it sold for a million dollars or more at auction? We do not put a price on beauty which reflects some sort of physical need or desire which it may fulfil; we do not wish to surround ourselves with things which are beautiful because they serve some purpose, or have some practical function. We desire beautiful things, even things which have no purpose or practical function, because they enrich our lives and give meaning to those plain, practical, functional things we must have. They have great value for that quality; the quality which enriches us in some way not physical.

No, maybe a snake isn't, practically speaking, worth $20,000, but then, is a box with thousands of tiny lights which serves no purpose other than to entertain us worth several thousand dollars? Is a movie, which serves no practical purpose, worth the money we spend--is Harry Potter 6 worth the $79.5 million dollars it earned in the opening weekend?

Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't, but there's always a reason that things are priced the way they are. Maybe to you that snake isn't worth $20,000, but certainly, to someone else it is.


To address the OP, I have no clue! I love to think about it, and always look forward to seeing what new genetic mutation we'll see from Africa each year. It's fun to see what else there is out there; almost as fun as it is to speculate.

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

Snakes in the wild and snakes bred in captivity will probably always be making new morphs. I think it wouldn't stop since many breeders are trying to come up with more and more different morphs each year. Some of the extraordinary morphs produced in captivity are banana clowns and panda pieds. Panda pieds are worth.. maybe 20k at the most (that's what I was told..)? And banana clowns are worth a good 40k. Just image how many more morphs will be created and how much the value of that morph will be. One day, I know there will be some amazing morph costing AT LEAST 100k.

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Op wasn't referring to designer morphs. He meant morphs occurring naturally. Such as the first of every base morph we have. No one made a spider, cinny, or an albino, They were found in nature and shipped over here where someone took them and tried reproducing them. As for whether its unlimited I say yes. As long as Ball pythons are around in nature there will be genetic defects which someone will find and exploit.

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Originally Posted by Seneschal

Why is art so expensive? Why is a big piece of cloth stretched over a wooden frame with random splotches of pigmentation slapped onto it sold for a million dollars or more at auction? We do not put a price on beauty which reflects some sort of physical need or desire which it may fulfil; we do not wish to surround ourselves with things which are beautiful because they serve some purpose, or have some practical function. We desire beautiful things, even things which have no purpose or practical function, because they enrich our lives and give meaning to those plain, practical, functional things we must have. They have great value for that quality; the quality which enriches us in some way not physical.

No, maybe a snake isn't, practically speaking, worth $20,000, but then, is a box with thousands of tiny lights which serves no purpose other than to entertain us worth several thousand dollars? Is a movie, which serves no practical purpose, worth the money we spend--is Harry Potter 6 worth the $79.5 million dollars it earned in the opening weekend?

Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't, but there's always a reason that things are priced the way they are. Maybe to you that snake isn't worth $20,000, but certainly, to someone else it is.


To address the OP, I have no clue! I love to think about it, and always look forward to seeing what new genetic mutation we'll see from Africa each year. It's fun to see what else there is out there; almost as fun as it is to speculate.

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Very well put. Its a buyers market. A banana clown isn't worth a dime if no one wants to buy it. But I wish I could lol. And this is for Tiffany prices always drop. 10 years ago a pastel could have cost you thousands but theres soo many of them now that supply has far surpassed demand so the price has dropped. The more rare an item is the more expensive it is. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Seneschal

Why is art so expensive? Why is a big piece of cloth stretched over a wooden frame with random splotches of pigmentation slapped onto it sold for a million dollars or more at auction? We do not put a price on beauty which reflects some sort of physical need or desire which it may fulfil; we do not wish to surround ourselves with things which are beautiful because they serve some purpose, or have some practical function. We desire beautiful things, even things which have no purpose or practical function, because they enrich our lives and give meaning to those plain, practical, functional things we must have. They have great value for that quality; the quality which enriches us in some way not physical.

No, maybe a snake isn't, practically speaking, worth $20,000, but then, is a box with thousands of tiny lights which serves no purpose other than to entertain us worth several thousand dollars? Is a movie, which serves no practical purpose, worth the money we spend--is Harry Potter 6 worth the $79.5 million dollars it earned in the opening weekend?

Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't, but there's always a reason that things are priced the way they are. Maybe to you that snake isn't worth $20,000, but certainly, to someone else it is.

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Well harry potter 6 doesnt cost 79.5 million$$$ to watch. Thats a total world wide. If your trying to compair like that think of all the ball pythons sold world wide morphs included.
That snake is only worth $20,000 because the breeder knows someone else wants to buy it and make their own to sell.

No a box with lights isnt worth several thousand dollars. BUT thoes boxes decrease in value as they become less common. Im saying morphs should too.

also ART isnt sold for millions of dollars unless its by some famous artist, and who every buys it is most likley rich or obsessed with art. Or a museum.
idk about you but im not gonna spend a bunch of money on something just because it looks good. Especially a peice of canvas.

Technically no, as long as nature continues to like to throw curve balls we'll always have a nice repository for morphs.

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Originally Posted by I<3Dreamsicles

No a box with lights isnt worth several thousand dollars. BUT thoes boxes decrease in value as they become less common. Im saying morphs should too.

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Common is a relative term, why is that I see Pastels selling for $75, the same price as a Normal BP @ Petco when Pastels, compared to normals, are still comparatively uncommon.

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Originally Posted by I<3Dreamsicles

No a box with lights isnt worth several thousand dollars. BUT thoes boxes decrease in value as they become less common. Im saying morphs should too.

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I am confused? So the more rare an item the less its worth? I think you meant they decrease in value as they become more common. Which is true of everything.

With the way nature is, the bp natural morphs coming out of africa will probebly never end. things are always in motion, wether it takes a day or a hundred years things have to change and evolve. I no people that will pay millions for things that may be pointless to you and me, but from there point of view its worth it. Then again when you can spend a million on a painting then you def. have no wry's about money, and can blow it anyway they want. (wish I could do that)

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

Snakes in the wild and snakes bred in captivity will probably always be making new morphs. I think it wouldn't stop since many breeders are trying to come up with more and more different morphs each year. Some of the extraordinary morphs produced in captivity are banana clowns and panda pieds. Panda pieds are worth.. maybe 20k at the most (that's what I was told..)? And banana clowns are worth a good 40k. Just image how many more morphs will be created and how much the value of that morph will be. One day, I know there will be some amazing morph costing AT LEAST 100k.

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$100k has been topped for a bp a long time ago. ive heard prices up as far as 250k

When thinking about cost of a new morph, one needs to think about the years it took to get to that stage, the expensive morphs are ones not common in numbers and ones that took a breeder years to get to the point where they could have adult bp's with the genetics they have bred to be ready to produce offspring.

If a clown which has het animals available can go for 1500 and above then it is not hard to see how animals can creep up the scale when you think about the years of getting one genetic animal and then raising that animal up, successfully breeding it, hitting the odds, no failure in incubation etc etc...when you get up into bp's that have several dominant or several recessive qualities it can take an eternity to get that animals to come out of an egg.

Well I am going to buck what everyone is saying and give a totally different answer.

There will most definitely be an end to wild base morphs at some point.

Granted, nature is prone to making little mistakes in the DNA from time to time but not every single one of those mistakes will result in a morph. Just because a gene can be changed does not mean that it will absolutely change the phenotype. In fact, most mutations on the DNA level are silent.

Additionally, there are some genes that are essential. That is, they cannot be mutated because if they are the animal dies. Period.

So, when you consider silent mutations and essential genes, you get a limed number of locations that can be mutated to bring about a phenotype. And any time there is a limited number it will eventually be tapped out.

Nothing can stop it, other than the number of possibilities to modify the number of gene possible.

But all of them are not a phenotype either (some can't be seen). While others cause death and other weird stuff.

Well, if you do all the mutation you can on an ADN you will get another animal. Isn't it the way the life evolved ?

Otherwise, I would believe we are near the end. If it fallow the market and management idea.

AT the start, only a few new innovation comes up (albino, piedbald were the first, with may be the ghost).
Then the increase in innovation (spider, pinstripe, mojave, lesser, etc...), we see more and more to appear.
Then it's a sort of stability, we only see a few innovation coming in (banana, mystic, yb, etc...)
Then it's the decrease, there is nearly no new innovation.

I would believe we are in the stability part. In the wild, people are trying to find new stuff since they can make lot of money if they do, but they nearly don't find any more.

If we had the combos to it. I would say we still have lot of time before we see a decrease and less interest from the people. Like it happenned with the corns.


But the snake stuff, is a bit different than anything else. Do you know any other product that can produce other product like himself ?

What would the world be if you could buy a dishwasher and reproduce another dishwasher a few years later and sell it ? :)

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Well I am going to buck what everyone is saying and give a totally different answer.

There will most definitely be an end to wild base morphs at some point.

Granted, nature is prone to making little mistakes in the DNA from time to time but not every single one of those mistakes will result in a morph. Just because a gene can be changed does not mean that it will absolutely change the phenotype. In fact, most mutations on the DNA level are silent.

Additionally, there are some genes that are essential. That is, they cannot be mutated because if they are the animal dies. Period.

So, when you consider silent mutations and essential genes, you get a limed number of locations that can be mutated to bring about a phenotype. And any time there is a limited number it will eventually be tapped out.

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I understand what you're saying and how it makes sense but i respectfully disagree :) i feel that with the genome of the BP as it is now, there are an infinite number of possibilitiles. TRUE most mutations are detrimental or non compatible with life, but we do end up seeing many. New morphs pop up all the time. Sure color/pattern variations (what we refer to as morphs) can be connected to other issues (such as in spiders). I feel that it is possible that we may see an increase in color/pattern variations being connected with other "things", (example: in humans, eyecolor is connected to at LEAST 3 genes, i have no idea of the locii or the number of genes but i know it is at least 3). So maybe color could also be connected to...scale counts or head size, or maybe a snake could end up with 13 kidneys or something and we'd never know all because its "blurple".

given what we know, there is a finite number of possibilities in the colors alone that we see because the pigmentation itself has limits (ie we have yet to see blue hued ball pythons because they lack blue pigmentation). Is it possible the pigment could change and we could see blue BPs? I can't say no with 100% certainty.

Yes, morphs are endless! Well, designermorphs are..

Ever tried to get all recessive morphs in one snake? :rofl:

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

I understand what you're saying and how it makes sense but i respectfully disagree :) i feel that with the genome of the BP as it is now, there are an infinite number of possibilitiles.

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I do not mind if you disagree, makes for good debate :)

Your refutation of my post only supports what I have said. The genome of the ball python is limited. That is a fact. There are only a very specific number of bases in that genome. IDK what that exact number is, not sure anyone has actually gone about finding that information out. But for arguments sake, let us say it is 2 gigabases. Only so many of those bases can be mutated to bring about a definite phenotype. That gives you a limiting number. And when you have a defined, limiting number it is not possible to reach "infinity" with it. Eventually you come to the end.


Your note on eye colour is correct (it is polygenetic) but in this case it does not so much apply because you are talking there about a situation that is less about morphs and more about population variability. After all, every normal ball python is a normal ball python even if their patterns are slightly different from one another.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

I do not mind if you disagree, makes for good debate :)

Your refutation of my post only supports what I have said. The genome of the ball python is limited. That is a fact. There are only a very specific number of bases in that genome. IDK what that exact number is, not sure anyone has actually gone about finding that information out. But for arguments sake, let us say it is 2 gigabases. Only so many of those bases can be mutated to bring about a definite phenotype. That gives you a limiting number. And when you have a defined, limiting number it is not possible to reach "infinity" with it. Eventually you come to the end.


Your note on eye colour is correct (it is polygenetic) but in this case it does not so much apply because you are talking there about a situation that is less about morphs and more about population variability. After all, every normal ball python is a normal ball python even if their patterns are slightly different from one another.

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I loves me a good civil debate :)

I was saying that color is finite, other things such as pattern are infinite. Each snake is its own special snowflake. I dont think i know enough about BP genome to really go on though :\

Where can i learn more?

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

I was saying that color is finite, other things such as pattern are infinite.

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I can accept that, to an extent. I more look at it that subtleties in pattern are "infinite". However gross pattern differences (i.e. pin, spider, woma, clown) are finite.

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Each snake is its own special snowflake.

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Absolutely. However, each snake, on being a snowflake, is not a morph.

And that is what I was getting at. While there will always be "infinite" variability between snakes, the actual number of base morphs possible (albino, spider, pastel, hypo, etc) are absolutely finite.

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I dont think i know enough about BP genome to really go on though :\

Where can i learn more?

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Depends on the detail level you want. A more advanced genetics course might cover some levels of what you are looking for in as much as ball pythons are subject to the same genetic rules other eukaryotes are.

But if you want ball python genetics specifically there is nothing. The BP genome has not been sequenced to any extent that I know of. Wish I had the time and funds to change that but right now my projects are in a decidedly different field.