Python Rope A Dope

The reptile community has been suckered. We are falling for a very clever ruse and it is happening at this very moment.

What trick, you say? S373 and HR2811, of course. The clever nature of the trickery behind these bills has caused the reptile community to lose its perspective and react in a most unexpected way. We are now working for the other side. We are unintentionally supporting a ban. Allow me to explain.

Both S373 and HR2811 propose to add the entire genus PYTHON to the injurious species list of the current Lacey Act. If passed this will ban the importation of AND interstate transport of all pythons. This will effectively end the trade in every species of python there is. This is, of course, a horrifying proposition to python lovers everywhere. At first I laughed at the silliness of it and shook my head at how uneducated the people were who penned such legislation. But as I continued to think about it I came to realise that it may actually be brilliant wording on their part. It's brilliance lies their anticipation of our reaction. As a community we have played directly into the hands of those who wish ban the ownership of exotic animals. And leading the packed on being tricked is one of our most active voices, the United States Association of Reptile Keepers, USARK.

In my opinion USARK has officially thrown the Burmese Python under the proverbial bus. I have long feared it would one day happen but did not expect it to come so soon. On July 25th, 2009 USARK actively solicited the reptile community to contact members of the House Judiciary Committee to amend the wording of HR2811 to specifically address Burmese pythons rather than the entire python genera. In doing so they have become unintentional participants in the initiative to ban large constrictors in the United States. And I suggest that this is partially what the authors of S373 and HR2811 wanted to happen. I believe these bills are INTENTIONALLY vague (by using only the term 'python') in order to get us to say, "Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Don't ban all pythons! Just ban Burmse pythons! " Wait. Did we, the reptile community, really just say that? Yeah, we did.

The last I heard USARK's position was that they did not support legislation that was not based on a legitimate scientific analysis of the ability of the Burmese python to expand beyond the Florida Everglades. Has such evidence surfaced? No, it has not. But their position appears to have changed. USARK wants to be the voice of the reptile community and they appear to be suggesting that we offer up the Burmese python as a sacrifice to protect all the other pythons.

Please don't take my words to think that I am coming down on USARK as a whole. I do not intend to do so. I firmly believe that USARK has, at its foundations, nothing but the absolute best intentions for the reptile community. They are a group of people who have stood up to fill a void; a voice to represent reptile owners throughout the United States. But I do not agree with their reaction to this particular issue. And part of me thinks that they, like the rest of us, have been tricked into a position that supports the desired result of those who wish to ban the ownership of exotic animals. We have played into their hands. Just a few short months ago we were all screaming, "No. You may not ban pythons without scientific evidence to support their ability to be invasive beyond the Florida Everglades." Now, in a tiny amount of time, we seem to have changed our voice to say, "Please, please, please! Just ban Burmese pythons." The only way we could have changed our tune so quickly is if we were tricked into doing so. And tricked we have been.

If you are going to make a call on Monday to a member of the House Judiciary Committee regarding the wording of HR2811 (as the USARK suggests) you need to make a choice about what you are going to say. Are you going to advocate a change in the wording that says it's OK to ban the Burmese python or are you going to tell them that the Lacey Act should not be amended until proof can be found that pythons are a national problem rather than just an isolated problem in the south of Florida?

And by the way, there is already a bill floating around that will fund efforts to hunt Burmese pythons in the Everglades (as well as multiple dozens of other non-native creatures that get no publicity). If Burmese pythons cannot expand beyond the Everglades and we are going to hunt them down and remove them, why do we need a law banning them throughout the entire United States? In short, we don't.

Once the exotic animal banning gates are open we cannot close them. More and more reptiles and other exotics will find themselves legally unavailable for ownership.

P.S. - Where are the big shipping companies? Delta (via Delta Dash), FedEx and UPS all stand to lose a considerable amount of money if these bans are actually put into effect. They should want to lobby on behalf of the responsible reptile owning community and ensure the future of a large revenue stream.

Final note: It is not lost on me that USARK's position may be one of minimization. They may be taking a precautionary stance by seeking to amend the wording to minimize damage if the unthinkable should happen. But even if that is true it doesn't change the fact that there has been a shift in tone toward a willingness to let Burmese python ownership become a thing of the past.

I never thought of it this way. I definitely didn't want them to ban ANY pythons, because I know how many, many people love to care for Burmese pythons. Burmese pythons should not be sacrificed to save all of the other pythons. Burmese pythons are a part of the hobby, and I know that many people love to have them as pets. Many people take wonderful care of their Burmese pythons and give them the correct care, while few others do not achieve that. That is why the pythons are all over Florida. Many people who purchased Burmese pythons when they were babies thought, "Hey, this snake will only get a little bit bigger." but instead the snakes ended up growing well over 10 feet making the owners think, "I don't want to care for this snake any more, I'll just release it somewhere." If people actually did their research before purchasing any snake would not have problems like that happen. If the people who purchased the Burmese pythons did their research, there would barely be any Burmese pythons in Florida and possibly wouldn't have purchase the snake in the first place. I think people should actually be informed about the snake BEFORE they make the purchase so they know what their dealing with.

USARK wants the ban of importation of burmese pythons, they aren't saying "ok just ban burms all together". Usark still wants captive breeding and interstate sale and transfer to remain legal.
Exerpt straight from the email from USARK- "Please amend the bill to address only the IMPORT of the Burmese Python." I think you may have misunderstood their goal.

You are dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

I do not agree with a complete ban on the burmese python! Although I have always thought there should be a permit system for keeping these large snakes(Not like the crappy one they got down in Florida) just so they have a better chance of staying out of the wrong hands. I've also thought the same thing for venomous snakes and crocodilians.

The only ban being talked about is the importation of Burmese. That is, importing them from outside the US.

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Originally Posted by Hulihzack

USARK wants the ban of importation of burmese pythons, they aren't saying "ok just ban burms all together". Usark still wants captive breeding and interstate sale and transfer to remain legal.
Exerpt straight from the email from USARK- "Please amend the bill to address only the IMPORT of the Burmese Python." I think you may have misunderstood their goal.

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If the Burmese python is added to Section 3371(g) of the Lacey Act they are effectively banned in the United States because the Lacey Act prevents buying, selling and interstate transport. There is no captive-bred provision for listed animals. Section 3372(2) of the Lacey Act makes it a crime for someone to "to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce" any animal on the list. Notice how it doesn't provide for banning ONLY importation. The Act does not provide for exceptions for any animal currently on the list.

HR2811 does not seek to amend the wording of the Lacey Act in any other way than to add "pythons" to Section 3371(g). USARK is suggesting the wording be amended to say 'python molurus bivittatus', rather than just 'python'. No other species (or subspecies) is so specifically listed in the Lacey Act and even if the wording is changed it does not prevent Burmese pythons from being captured in the umbrella statement of section 3372(2).

So no, I wouldn't say I'm confused about things.

For the most part I tend to stay away from topics like this, but I am going to make an exception this time. First off incidents like the recent one in Florida SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED :mad: And I don't think any responsible snake keeper would disagree with me. What the answer is as how to fix it I don't know. But something needs to be done so that every John Doe with a couple hundred bucks can't just walk into a pet store and get a large snake, just because they think it makes them look cool!!!!! Maybe some sort of permit system where prospective snake owners can prove they know what they are getting into with large snakes. Something similar to they use for firearms where there is a seven day waiting period before you can get your firearm. Or in one city near to where I live you have to have a permit to own a pit bull dog. Sure we do not need more government intervention in our hobby, but maybe if there had been rules and regulations in place it MIGHT have saved the little girl in Florida!!!!!!!!! I have seen posts on this forum where someone asks if they are ready for a large snake...Well if you have to ask, then my guess would be that NO you are not ready!!!!!!

The thing is Colin, that these politicians believe that a problem exists and that something must be done. They are ignorant of the facts and they haven't done their homework, but, you would gamble the whole python species in an all or nothing one shot vote. You can challenge them to prove the ability of the Burmese Python to migrate out of Florida but that would just be beating a dead horse. They don't need to prove anything. They have the power to institute these laws. They will pass a law. We can only hope to mitigate the damage at this point in my opinion. I respect your idealism, but life has beat much of the idealism out of me and I view compromise as better than defeat. I have used the provided script today in my contacts.

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Originally Posted by dsirkle

.... They will pass a law. We can only hope to mitigate the damage at this point in my opinion. I respect your idealism, but life has beat much of the idealism out of me and I view compromise as better than defeat. I have used the provided script today in my contacts.

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Call me a gambling man. What do you think is more likely:
1) A nationwide and massive reaction by the reptile community as a vote goes to the actual floor of the House to ban ALL pythons or;
2) A nationwide and massive reaction by the reptile community as a vote goes to the actual floor of the House to ban BURMESE pythons?

If a bill goes to the floor of the House of Representatives (HR2811) worded to ban all pythons there will be a tidal wave unleashed against the House. I myself will be standing on the steps of Congress, cell phone in hand and a portable fax machine on my hip. And I won't be alone. A monsoon of constituents will rain down on their House delegates in a way that makes the response to HR669 look tiny. You can expect NO such reaction from the reptile community for a bill on the floor banning Burmese pythons by themselves.

Call it realism if you want. I call it quitting. Scapegoating. If the battle cry has changed to, "We have to give them something", then I'm ashamed to be part of the community. There are zero reasons why the Burmese pythons should be made the scapegoat to save the rest of the python genera. If anyone believes they are protecting their ball pythons by allowing them to ban Burmese pythons instead they are in for a very rude awakening.

This is not just about Burmese pythons today. This is about all pythons tomorrow. If you give the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) and other organizations with political power the satisfaction of this victory I assure you that a direct assault on ball pythons and other constrictors is in the very near future. These organizations are vigilant, persistent and methodical. And it appears that in a very short time they are proving they have the patience to wait us out. By going after the whole python genus they have tricked us into offering what we have been fighting against the whole time.

And I must be a heartless and horrible person because I have grown weary of hearing about the little girl who lost her life to a Burmese python. Tragedy? Absolutely. Earth shattering kaboom? Not by a long shot. I won't bore with the usual rhetoric about how many small children have been killed by dogs in the days since the Florida incident. But really? Seriously? Is that you ammunition? Twelve deaths in 20 years attributed to large constrictors? More people than that have tripped over their own shoe laces and died from the injuries in the past 20 years. Please stop offering large constrictor-related deaths as a reason why we should support a ban. It carries no real weight with the informed.

I have to agree that there can be no exception to which species is banned. When i called i registered a vote of no and just no without a change to include import of just burmese pythons.

Colin, I think that you give these politicians more credit then they are due. These Democrats just give knee jerk reactions to issues that grab headlines. They aren't going to invest their time in doing any research on this issue. The newspapers and National Public Radio and televised media love the evil Python drama. I heard NPR hang up on Dave Barker and summarily dismiss him as a weirdo. I have seen the attitude of these Congressmen on a Newscast, gleefully contemplating action against the Python menace. The Reptile community is not a major voting block. In fact when I have called the office of these Congressmen today, the Florida Congressmen's offices seemed to be downright gleeful about my Michigan zip code.These same Congressmen mindlessly oppose gun ownership also. However they have the Constitution blocking their way on that issue. In this particular case you have no big stick. In fact you have no stick at all. I applaud your enthusiasm and have no wish to discourage you in your efforts. I just disagree wit your assessment of the situation and posted to explain why I endorse the USARK position.

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Originally Posted by dsirkle

... In this particular case you have no big stick. In fact you have no stick at all. I applaud your enthusiasm and have no wish to discourage you in your efforts. I just disagree wit your assessment of the situation and posted to explain why I endorse the USARK position.

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If USARK is not going to be my stick why should I or any other reptile enthusiast ever join and give them money? Today we are tossing Burmese onto the sacrificial altar. What will we offer next time Congress demands a sacrifice?

Ball python people are so quick to dog pile on a Burmese ban because it doesn't appear to impact them. "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a cheeseburger today.". Sooner or later you have to pay.

I wonder how the rest of the reptile community will treat us when we're on the block...

Keep calling and faxing a personal letter with your personal info to every number! Make sure you get every number! Keep going all day if you have to! I was told by one rep that they have recieved more calls on this than any other issue in the house right now! Here are all the numbers. Keep at it. If you get a busy line move to the next one!

Time is critical, so please take the time to contact the following Congresspeople and ask them -- POLITELY -- to send this bill back to be amended to use the scientific names of the specific animals they're seeking to restrict, and not include common housepets along with animals of concern.

Chair:

John Conyers, Jr., (D) Michigan, 14th, email: john.conyers@mail.house.gov, phone: 202-225-5126, fax: 202-225-0072

Ranking member:

Lamar Smith, (R) Texas, 21st: phone: 202-225-4236, fax: 202-225-8628

Key members for this bill:


Tom Rooney, (R) Florida, 16th: phone: 202-225-5792, fax: 202-225-3132 (co-sponsor)

Debbie Wasserman Schultz, (D) Florida, 20th: Phone: 202-225-7931, fax: 202-226-2052

Robert Wexler, (D) Florida, 19th: phone: phone: 202-225-3001, fax: 202-225-5974 (co-sponsor)
The bill's author; he is not on this committee, but contact his office also:

Congressman Kendrick Meek (D) Florida; phone 202-225-4506; fax 202-226-0777

Below, you'll find the remaining members of the Judiciary Committee. If you have time to contact them as well, that would be helpful, but at the very least scan the list and see if your represenative is there, and contact him or her.

Other members – if your representative is on this list, contact him or her and mention that you are a constituent:

* Tammy Baldwin, (D) Wisconsin, 2nd: phone: 202-225-2906, fax: 202-225-6942

* Howard Berman, (D) California, 28th: phone: 202-225-4695, fax: 202-225-3196

* Rick Boucher, (D) Virginia, 9th: phone: 202-225-3861, fax: 202-225-0442

* Jason Chaffetz, (R) Utah, 3rd: phone: 202-225-7751, fax: (202) 225-5629

* Howard Coble, (R) North Carolina, 6th: howard.coble@mail.house.gov, 202-225-3065, fax: 202-225-8611

* Steve Cohen, (D) Tennessee, 9th: phone: 202-225-3265, fax: 202-225-5663

* Bill Delahunt, (D) Massachusetts, 10th: William.Delahunt@mail.house.gov, 202-225-3111, fax: 202-225-5658

* Randy Forbes, (R) Virginia, 4th: Phone: 202-225-6365, fax: 202-226-1170

* Trent Franks, (R) Arizona, 2nd: phone: 202-225-4576, fax: 202-225-6328

* Elton Gallegly, (R) California, 24th: Phone: 202-225-5811, fax: 202-225-1100

* Louie Gohmert, (R) Texas, 1st: phone: 202-225-3035, 202-226-1230 fax

* Charles Gonzalez, (D) Texas, 20th: phone: 202-225-3236, fax: 202-225-1915

* Bob Goodlatte, (R) Virginia, 6th: phone: 202-225-5431, fax: 202-225-9681

* Luis Gutierrez, (D) Illinois, 4th: phone: 202-225-8203, fax: 202-225-7810

* Gregg Harper, (R) Mississippi, 3rd: phone: 202-225-5031, fax: 202-225-5797

* Darrell Issa, (R) California, 49th: phone: 202-225-3906, fax: 202-225-3303

* Henry "Hank" Johnson, Jr., (D) Georgia, 4th: phone: 202-225-1605, fax: 202-226-0691

* Jim Jordan, (R) Ohio, 4th: phone: 202-225-2676, fax: 202-226-0577

* Steve King, (R) Iowa, 5th: phone: 202-225-4426, fax: 202-225-3193

* Sheila Jackson Lee, (D) Texas, 18th: phone: 202-225-3816, fax: 202-225-3317

* Zoe Lofgren, (D) California, 16th: phone: 202-225-3072

* Dan Lungren, (R) California, 3rd: phone: 202-225-5716, fax: 202-226-1298

* Dan Maffei, (D) New York, 25th: phone: 202-225-3701, fax: 202-225-4042

* Jerrold Nadler, (D) New York, 8th: phone: 202-225-5635, fax: 202-225-6923

* Pedro Pierluisi, (D) Puerto Rico, Resident Commissioner: phone: (202) 225-2615

* Ted Poe, (R) Texas, 2nd: phone: 202-225-6565, fax: 202-225-5547

* Linda Sanchez, (D) California, 39th: The Hill form 202-225-6676, fax: 202-226-1012

* Adam B. Schiff, (D) California, 29th: e-mail form 202-225-4176, fax: 202-225-5828

* Bobby Scott, Virginia, 3rd: Phone: 202-225-8351, fax:202-225-8354

* F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., (R) Wisconsin, 5th: phone: 202-225-5101, fax: (202) 225-3190

* Brad Sherman, (D) California, 27: phone: 202-225-5911, fax:202-225-5879

* Maxine Waters, (D) California, 35th: phone: 202-225-2201, fax: 202-225-7854

* Melvin L. Watt ("Mel"), (D) North Carolina, 12th: phone: 202-225-1510, fax: 202-25-1512

* Anthony D. Weiner, (D) New York, 9th: phone: 202-225-6616, fax: 202-226-7253

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Originally Posted by BiggBaddWolf

For the most part I tend to stay away from topics like this, but I am going to make an exception this time. First off incidents like the recent one in Florida SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED :mad: And I don't think any responsible snake keeper would disagree with me. What the answer is as how to fix it I don't know. But something needs to be done so that every John Doe with a couple hundred bucks can't just walk into a pet store and get a large snake, just because they think it makes them look cool!!!!! Maybe some sort of permit system where prospective snake owners can prove they know what they are getting into with large snakes. Something similar to they use for firearms where there is a seven day waiting period before you can get your firearm. Or in one city near to where I live you have to have a permit to own a pit bull dog. Sure we do not need more government intervention in our hobby, but maybe if there had been rules and regulations in place it MIGHT have saved the little girl in Florida!!!!!!!!! I have seen posts on this forum where someone asks if they are ready for a large snake...Well if you have to ask, then my guess would be that NO you are not ready!!!!!!

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Excuse me? There ARE rules and regulations in place! The owner did NOT have the required permit and did NOT have the required caging, and did NOT have a LOCKED cage! There's already regulations and permits required in the state of Florida!

And look at what USARK said! "AMEND TO RESTRICT THE IMPORT OF BURMESE". It does not say to amend it to add burmese to the Lacey Act. It does not say to amend it to only say burmese banned. It says specifically to ask to amend to ban only the import of burmese.

Yes, you misunderstood what USARK said in the emails. No, you have not misunderstood the lawmakers goal. The lawmakers are not stupid, they are merely against snake keeping in many instances. That does not mean they are stupid, although some are misinformed, and some deliberately twist things to make it sound worse.

IM confused

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

If USARK is not going to be my stick why should I or any other reptile enthusiast ever join and give them money? Today we are tossing Burmese onto the sacrificial altar. What will we offer next time Congress demands a sacrifice?

Ball python people are so quick to dog pile on a Burmese ban because it doesn't appear to impact them. "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a cheeseburger today.". Sooner or later you have to pay.

I wonder how the rest of the reptile community will treat us when we're on the block...

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By "stick" I mean something that you can effectively hit them with such as the 2nd amendment can be used as a stick to beat the anti gun politicians in court. USARK is a lobbying group. They can talk. They can ask. But they have no stick. Demanding that they prove that Burmese Pythons can migrate is just shooting blanks. They do not have to provide any proof to you or anyone else but they do have the authority to enact legislation. As it stands the whole Python genus is on the chopping block. And there is no stick. I have made my calls today and I don't feel like a quitter. I am not happy with the proposed legislation. The American people wanted to vote Big Brother into power to protect them from themselves and take care of them. Well here it is.

For what it's worth here's my 2 cents...

We have to get them to pass sensible legislation not try to stop it altogether. That's a losing battle. The moment a 2 year old toddler got killed we knew something was going to happen. If it had been a 20 something that had been killed this would blow over, but because it was a 2 year old it is going to play out.

Having said that we should all be putting forth an effort to educate our representatives and explain to them that this is a state issue, not a national issue. That's why state's have legislative bodies to regulate their own selves. Basically what is happening here is that the entirety of the United States is going to be punished for the actions of a few citizens of one state.

I dont think we should throw Burms under the bus but we do need to help structure laws that serve everyones interests.

North Carolina has recently passed realistic laws that dont ban but enforce liability for owning potentially dangerous animals. This is legislation which allows the pets by setting security and housing standards which in turn also protects other citizens. This is legislation influenced by herpetologists not media hysteria.

Laws like HR2811 are based on irrational fears not logic. The herp community needs to educate lawmakers and what we are seeing is this process. Keep calling, sending letters and faxes. The squeaky wheel gets the grease!:salute:

Colin, I agree 100% with everything you've said so far in this thread. I couldn't believe it at first when I saw USARK was so willing to sacrifice Burmese pythons. I actually found a different sample letter, lengthened it to an entire page from a couple paragraphs, and faxed it to EVERY member of the committee, not just the list provided by USARK.

I don't even keep burms at the moment, and personally am not very happy that a lot of the snake breeders of other species seem so willing to throw burm breeders under the bus just because they don't think it will directly affect them. Even if they get this thing reduced to only include importation, that will still include dwarf burms (currently listed as Python molurus bivittatus - same as mainland burms), which I was keen to add to my collection within the next few years. It will also open the door to more restrictive legislation concerning other species. If the government feels it must pass something in regards to the problem in the Everglades, they should make a federal license or something else, not a ban. I know I'd rather pay for that every year than not even be allowed to do out of state sales at all. Just seems like an all around bad situation for us. I am truly worried about the future of our hobby after today.

I no longer support USARK. I no longer donate to their cause. And I have requested a reimbursement of all monies donated in the past. Why? Simple. They have sold me out.. sold out my beloved Python molurus bivittatus. And I doubt they will stop with my choice of reptile.. yours is next!

That very old adage, "Give 'em an inch.. they'll take a mile.. " comes to mind :colbert:

I was very happy when I heard of usark. I was glad that finally someone had rose up to fight for the reptile community and I stood behind them 100 percent until I got my email that gave me a copy and paste letter that agreed to ban the importing of burmese pythons. When I recieved that my thoughts about usark changed.

I agree with colin 100 percent. I do believe there need to be restrictions so not your everday joe can just decide to pick up a large snake or a hot or a croc. But I also do not believe in stoping the importing of them either. Just thank of what the reaction would be if that letter that usark sent out said they agree to ban the importing of ball pythons! There would mass hysteria. Usark would be no more. No one would support them. Just look at burms now they have been so inbred its not even funny. You see them with kinks and all kinds of problems. We need imported burms for new blood to mix with our blood that is already here. What if a new morph is discovered and we have no way of ever getting it here!
I called today I have wrote emails but I wrote my own letter supporting all herpers no matter what you keep from a frog to anaconda I support the entire community. And I will fight for everyone. I personally wrote andrew and asked him why and he sent me a copy and paste letter from kingsnake he had posted and I sent him a reply to that and never heard back from him.
We should all be fighting the laws together and not giving up any of our animals. We are all in the same hobby no matter what we keep be it a burm or a ball or a cobra we all share the same passion and should have everyones back. Not throw anyone under the bus

Well all I can say is thank god.
All I have heard for the last month or so since I voiced my opinion on U.S.A.R.K. was how I was a horrible person and when I told Burmese Python Keepers that may have supported U.S.A.R.K. to demand their money back I was told that I should support these guys and stop bashing them.

I am so glad to see a few people over here on a Ball Python forum that see them for what they are.

Thank you Colin for giving my wife and I faith in the people outside of the Burm world again...

By the way everyone I am Sam Bearden my wife and I Raise, Keep and Breed Burmese Pythons and we love everyone of them like a pet.

My wife is a member of this forum and I only joined up to post this thank you to Colin for his post.

My wife is Burmmamma(who'd a thunk it humm) anyway Colin Thanks.

You guys have a really nice forum but I will leave my wife to the posting over here we try to stay on seperate forums because we have our own and we see each other enough there.
Take care.

USARK doesn't WANT Burmese pythons banned, they want importation banned. That doesn't include captive breeding and sale. Simply banning the importation won't be the end of burm trade although yes, it will downsize it dramatically. But with a drop in supply usually comes an increase in value... USARK won't be happy with adding them to the Lacey act or outright banning them. I heard those words straight from Andrew Wyatts mouth on Reptile Radio just last night.

I don't think that equates to throwing burms under the bus. It's the polititions you need to be angry with not USARK. Think about this too, if USARK wasn't spreading the word, would we have even gotten a big enough response to have an impact?
:2cent:

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Originally Posted by Hulihzack

USARK doesn't WANT Burmese pythons banned, they want importation banned. That doesn't include captive breeding and sale. Simply banning the importation won't be the end of burm trade although yes, it will downsize it dramatically. But with a drop in supply usually comes an increase in value... USARK won't be happy with adding them to the Lacey act or outright banning them. I heard those words straight from Andrew Wyatts mouth on Reptile Radio just last night.

I don't think that equates to throwing burms under the bus. It's the polititions you need to be angry with not USARK. Think about this too, if USARK wasn't spreading the word, would we have even gotten a big enough response to have an impact?
:2cent:

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Usark shouldnt want anything banned import or captive breeding! They are suppose to be fighting for us. It would ruin the burm market. I know its not as profitable as other markets in the herp industry but once the morphs we have now are bred with the hypos and the blondes then that will be it.

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Originally Posted by Denial

Usark shouldnt want anything banned import or captive breeding! They are suppose to be fighting for us. It would ruin the burm market. I know its not as profitable as other markets in the herp industry but once the morphs we have now are bred with the hypos and the blondes then that will be it.

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The all or nothing approach is not wise.

They don't want anything banned. But given the amount of negative media already out there and their experience in their field, I trust him when he says "It's just not going to happen" in regards to getting -nothing- banned. You gotta remember that the polititians who will amend this are still going to do whatever will get Joe Blow and the rest of the brutally misinformed public to vote him back into office, and by this point, I think it's unreasonable to expect a complete revocation of a ban of any type. Trust me I'd love nothing more than to see them drop it entirely but let's be real here, it's not going to happen.

I urge everyone to go to Reptile Radio and listen to last night's show, at least the part with Andrew Wyatt. He's on our side and I think we would be truly screwed without him.

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Originally Posted by bsd13

The all or nothing approach is not wise.

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Yes. Thank you.

Do you really think if they ban importing burms it will stop at burms?

Until a poorly kept retic kills a toddler instead

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Originally Posted by Denial

Do you really think if they ban importing burms it will stop at burms?

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No, but I also know that even if they stopped allowing the import of all snakes we have no shortage of any species in the pet trade. We certainly wouldn't run out of burms or anything else.

once you give up one species, another one will be next.

no legislation. no permits. permits equal legislation that affects your freedoms and liberties as an US citizen.

I have said it for several months. I am rooting for the burmese python.

if the government is so concerned about invasive species, it can start by looking in the mirror.

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Originally Posted by redpython

once you give up one species, another one will be next.

no legislation. no permits. permits equal legislation that affects your freedoms and liberties as an US citizen.

I have said it for several months. I am rooting for the burmese python.

if the government is so concerned about invasive species, it can start by looking in the mirror.

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Technically burms aren't even considered invasive species by definition. The term is being misused by environmentalists because it sounds better for them. VPI's article does a good job at clearing up a lot of the misunderstandings from the media-driven campaign against burms in the Everglades. I suggest everyone read and spread it.

http://vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/O...compressed.pdf

I really hope and pray that this bill will be dropped , however I feel that would take a miracle. Realisticly, I feel atleast the import of burms will be banned. Now, regarding usark....there doing the best they can, and comprimising is the best strategy. To simply fight for nothing to be banned would be suicide for our cause becuse with politicians, if you dont meet them half way they will simply do as they please. Often you must sacrifice a little for a lot when it comes to practically everything in life. The import of burms will hurt the trade, but not kill it.

So, my overall thought is usark is being realistic with whats going on and they have more experince with politics then any of us. With that said, I hope the bill just dies.

p.s. the whole " if they ban burms they will eventually ban all pythons, and even otheir snakes" is nothing more then hersey. Where is the proof? thats like saying since california has practically banned pit bulls that all dogs will be banned. Honestly I think its just anger and fear coming together to make hysteria.

its not fear just anger of being sold out

You have to remember that these are politicians and the only "best interest" they have at heart is their own. This is how they keep their jobs. They know most of their voters don't keep reptiles, so they cause a small scale panic based on an over-inflated, media created problem, then they can pass a law and "save the day." Then during the next election they will brag and highlight how they defeated the dreaded Pythonzilla, yet they will say nothing about how they raised taxes on the middle class working American, unemplyment exceeded 20%, and how they spent several more trillions of dollars we don't have, and sent more companies packing and heading overseas. It's basically a smokescreen to hide the fact that they can't solve real problems and issues. And in closing, remember: There is no such thing as a honest politician, only those who haven't been caught yet. Politicians, by their very nature, are bovine feces artists who have bovine fecalled their way to the top...


Rob

I think there is a big issue on this forum about the lack of respect and concern for keepers of large snakes and the snakes themselves. Just because you do not keep a burm or a retic or a conda or something else does not mean that others don't keep and love them dearly. If this ban was on the importation of ball pythons, everyone here would be singing a much different tune. Do not throw other keepers and other species under the bus, because when you are in trouble and looking to others for support, what do you think will happen?

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Originally Posted by aaramire

I think there is a big issue on this forum about the lack of respect and concern for keepers of large snakes and the snakes themselves. Just because you do not keep a burm or a retic or a conda or something else does not mean that others don't keep and love them dearly. If this ban was on the importation of ball pythons, everyone here would be singing a much different tune. Do not throw other keepers and other species under the bus, because when you are in trouble and looking to others for support, what do you think will happen?

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I don't own a python of any species and I've called my rep. multiple times, I'd like to think I'm not the only one too, but maybe you're right. But then I wonder how much the burm industry relies on imported animals compared to captive bred animals. I know the pet store I work at very rarely gets them and they're never imported.

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Originally Posted by Hulihzack

I don't own a python of any species and I've called my rep. multiple times, I'd like to think I'm not the only one too, but maybe you're right. But then I wonder how much the burm industry relies on imported animals compared to captive bred animals. I know the pet store I work at very rarely gets them and they're never imported.

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I think that's actually the reason that USARK decided to support a ban on only the import of Burmese Pythons. This would mitigate the damage this bill would cause with minimal reprocussions for the reptile industry. However, the only way I would support a ban on the import of burms would be if it was only wild-caught Python molurus bivittatus, and excluded dwarf burmese pythons, and maybe possible new mutations (though it is unlikely there could be a provision for the new mutations). Captive bred burms from Europe and other countries with breeding projects should be fair game.

I admit that I don't know much about Burms, so I was doing a little research. According to National Geographic, the Burmese Python is listed as "Threatened". Now isn't this just one step above "endangered". So with these legal python hunts in florida, the politicians are technically pushing the species one step closer to extinction, which is not suprising. "Save the Whales" "Save the Panda" "Save the Tigers" but it's ok to eradicate a snake.:mad: why not try to eradicate mosquitos. They kill more people worldwide from Malaria than Burms do. I know, I know, I'm preaching to the choir. Just ranting, that's all...


Rob

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Originally Posted by Vypyrz

I admit that I don't know much about Burms, so I was doing a little research. According to National Geographic, the Burmese Python is listed as "Threatened". Now isn't this just one step above "endangered". So with these legal python hunts in florida, the politicians are technically pushing the species one step closer to extinction, which is not suprising. "Save the Whales" "Save the Panda" "Save the Tigers" but it's ok to eradicate a snake.:mad: why not try to eradicate mosquitos. They kill more people worldwide from Malaria than Burms do. I know, I know, I'm preaching to the choir. Just ranting, that's all...


Rob

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...and dogs? What about dogs? ..and cars? What about ..wait.. the car can't kill you unless there's an idiot behind the wheel, being wreckless... so what about idiots.. ?

NOW we're preachin' to the choir! :weirdface

When some of these foolish media and political type folks finally figure out that poorly kept Reticulated Pythons, Anacondas, larger than average Boa constrictors.. are all capable of the same things they claim Burms are... and that they aren't all one and the same...... THEN they'll start trying to ban them, too! And I can promise you, there will be some Burm enthusiasts that won't be "big enough" to come forward and fight for YOUR rights ..after you gladly sold us out ..or threw us under the bus. I know I will have to think it over a few times, before I will fight anymore.

Yeah, all us Ball python folks are selling the burm keepers out, that's why you see all these threads saying 'Please call and object to HR2811".

Apparently the massive effort of calling and faxing(which costs some of us money to do) doesn't matter, because we won't automatically bash USARK. If we can defeat the measure entirely, that would be the ideal. If we have to slide to banning importation of burms, that's better by FAR than a ban on all burms.

I'd prefer they leave all of them alone. Of all the giants, burmese are the best suited to be a pet, IMO. They seem more placid and tolerant than the others. I don't keep burms, or any giants, and I don't intend to. But I made all my calls and all that, to try to keep the legislation from passing.

I think a LOT of the people on here called too. I wouldn't call that "selling you out".

That said, I have not agreed with some of what USARK has done. When they got legislation done in carolina about regulating ROC there, I do not remember receiving any updates about "Here's what we're proposing", but only heard after the fact. I prefer to know what the organization I'm supporting is doing BEFORE they do it. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Yeah, all us Ball python folks are selling the burm keepers out, that's why you see all these threads saying 'Please call and object to HR2811".

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I just got a voice mail from a friend who happens to be a medium-sized ball python breeder. The gist of it: "Whew! Ball pythons are safe!" I was disappointed by his excitement. He is missing out on the big picture.

Not being able to hear what ball pythons keepers said when they made their phone calls I can still say with confidence that if they used the words scripted by USARK then they were serving their own interests as ball python folk, not the Burmese python community. There is no pride in that.

If you called and asked a House delegate to switch the terminology from "pythons" to "burmese pythons" then you should go to bed tonight knowing that you threw a colleague out of a lifeboat to make room for yourself.

A post on this forum that I read earlier today reflects the general feeling of the ball python community; that we will always prevail in this onslaught of legislation because our snakes are small, relatively harmless and, to the best of my knowledge, not crawling around in the Everglades. But rest assured, exotic animals are not safe. The biggest and easiest target is going on the block tomorrow.

Do you remember how you felt when HR669 was on the table (and it's not gone forever)? I was sick to my stomach. Imagine how Burmese python lovers feel right now. And also take a moment to imagine how they feel about the rest of the python owners calling to get their own names taken off the list. How can they be anything but furious with ball python owners right now?

Colin,

You seem to know a lot on this subject. I have a question. I assume Burms are under fire because of their prevalence in the Glades. Are other larger constrictors being found there as well? Afrocks, Retics, Anacondas, Boas? If so, why are Burms the sacrificial lambs?

Jamie

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

I just got a voice mail from a friend who happens to be a medium-sized ball python breeder. The gist of it: "Whew! Ball pythons are safe!" I was disappointed by his excitement. He is missing out on the big picture.

Not being able to hear what ball pythons keepers said when they made their phone calls I can still say with confidence that if they used the words scripted by USARK then they were serving their own interests as ball python folk, not the Burmese python community. There is no pride in that.

If you called and asked a House delegate to switch the terminology from "pythons" to "burmese pythons" then you should go to bed tonight knowing that you threw a colleague out of a lifeboat to make room for yourself.

A post on this forum that I read earlier today reflects the general feeling of the ball python community; that we will always prevail in this onslaught of legislation because our snakes are small, relatively harmless and, to the best of my knowledge, not crawling around in the Everglades. But rest assured, exotic animals are not safe. The biggest and easiest target is going on the block tomorrow.

Do you remember how you felt when HR669 was on the table (and it's not gone forever)? I was sick to my stomach. Imagine how Burmese python lovers feel right now. And also take a moment to imagine how they feel about the rest of the python owners calling to get their own names taken off the list. How can they be anything but furious with ball python owners right now?

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I can only speak for myself as a ball python breeder, but the letters I faxed were all my own, and requested for the bill to be thrown out all together. I know a lot of good guys who breed the big constrictors, and eventually plan to do so myself, if only with the dwarf varieties, and I would never do anything that would risk the future of their breeding projects. I can only hope we get this committee to take expert testimony before voting on this bill. For the sake of the future of the reptile industry as a whole...

Here is a link. Not sure if it has been posted yet but Hey if it has let's post it again. http://judiciary.house.gov/about/members.html
Here are all the members if you click the link under the members name you go to their page and can email them. Please help. I know right now everyone is safe except Burms and Rocks but please once our's are out of the way your pets may be next.

I am asking anyone and everyone to please do for the Burm guys and the Rock people what you would want us to do if it was your python with it's head on the block.

I would be there and I would do everything I have been doing for the Burms.

This thread makes me depressed. Not because of anything people here have said. But because it seems that we, as snake keepers, are up against people [politicians] who do not read, do not educate themselves on the facts, and do not even care about what they are doing, so long as it "sounds good" to voters. This whole debate about whether or not we compromise with them - the politicians! When really, everyone here knows that the compromise point is moot, that the whole bill is garbage, and that banning anything doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But truly, I don't think USARK is anti-burm owners, and I don't think they intend to throw burms on the chopping block. I think that they believe that, because of the little girl's death and the swarm of media attention given to the situation in the Everglades, that SOMETHING's gotta go, and that politicians won't be able to handle a lack of flashy legislation to boast about... so maybe a ban on the import of burms would be something we could withstand. I'm not even sure what I think anymore, just that, why oh WHY must we have to try and convince a proverbial brick wall of our ideas... :mad:



New idea... let's just have Greg Graziani run for Senator and replace Bill Nelson. I think that will solve everything!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Colin,

You seem to know a lot on this subject. I have a question. I assume Burms are under fire because of their prevalence in the Glades. Are other larger constrictors being found there as well? Afrocks, Retics, Anacondas, Boas? If so, why are Burms the sacrificial lambs?

Jamie

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Well as of now rocks are not safe either. And I assure you retics and anacondas will be sure to follow! And just wait until the hunters in the glades looking for giant pythons pull out some 6 foot redtails! Then they will be on the block also

Honestly. You lot are bickering like a bunch of children, and that's sad coming from me, since I know I'm younger than a lot of people here. Instead of sitting here arguing, you could be out spreading the word. Going to pet shops and places that carry snake supplies, putting up flyers, etc. Yes, I know it's a bit late for all that, but that's what you should have been doing instead of sitting and arguing.

Yes. Banning the importation is not something we want, but it's a hell of a lot better than them being banned outright. Life is unfortunately, full of compromises. You learn to either compromise or deal with the alternative which is usually a lot worse.

Before you jump me, yes, I called everyone on the list Monday, including my state reps (who weren't on the list, however, one of them is on the community, Jim Inhofe, fyi). No, I wasn't able to call the extended list today, due to having an extremely busy day, no I won't be able to call tomorrow morning due to how early it will be here (I doubt my attempts at being coherent would succeed).

Bottom line: arguing isn't going to help anyone, especially the species you don't want banned.