dominant question

ive been researching but have failed to find what im looking for. first i was intrested to know what spider x spider produces. then i found out they are dominant and only co-doms produce "supers" and i know recessive x recessive produce the same morph 100%. but what does dom x dom produce?

Super Spider hasnt been proven yet. Dominant means the "het" looks the same as the "super". Sorry no very good with words sometimes :P

ohhh ok.
i think i got it.

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Originally Posted by Qetu

ive been researching but have failed to find what im looking for. first i was intrested to know what spider x spider produces. then i found out they are dominant and only co-doms produce "supers" and i know recessive x recessive produce the same morph 100%. but what does dom x dom produce?

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Dominant x dominant just produces dominant--the same phenotype--or normal depending on the gene distribution (like brown eyes x brown eyes = brown eyes in humans). Now, in the case of spiders, it's a little obscure. I think the lethal question may have been answered. I spoke with Kevin from NERD, the reported discoverer and largest producer of spider morphs, and they have not yet produced a spider that has two alleles for spider. In other words, they have not produced a spider that has only spider offspring. So, the evidence is leaning toward a homozygous spider lethality.

The way I came to understand this whole thing was that there are 3 types of genes like this;

Dominant: Het and Super look the same (dont give your self a head ache :P). There is a chance for the gene to be carried over or not.

Co-dom: Het and Super look different somewhat. 50% chance the co-dom will carry over and the Super will always carry it selfs over in the Co-dom form.

Recessive: Can only be "seen" in its super form. The super form will always carry over as "het". The het form has a 50% chance to carry over.

Oh man head ache!

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Originally Posted by Danounet

The way I came to understand this whole thing was that there are 3 types of genes like this;

Dominant: Het and Super look the same (dont give your self a head ache :P). There is a chance for the gene to be carried over or not.

Co-dom: Het and Super look different somewhat. 50% chance the co-dom will carry over and the Super will always carry it selfs over in the Co-dom form.

Recessive: Can only be "seen" in its super form. The super form will always carry over as "het". The het form has a 50% chance to carry over.

Oh man head ache!

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Yeah, you've got the right idea. Let me put it in different terms.

Gene pairs can be described as het (1) or homo (2).

In the case of dominance, and let's pretend that the spider gene is dominant, then whether or not a spider has one or two, it will still look like a regular spider. With spiders, we don't know because it looks like a homozygous spider does not exist. So, we can only assume it's dominant.

In the case of codominance, one allele (gene) produces one type of morph, and having two alleles for that trait produces something all amped up--like pastels and super pastels. This is the way it is understood in the herp world, but it doesn't translate perfectly into mainstream genetics. That's OK. We're talking about herp morphs.

Recessive genes work ONLY in tandem. That is, in order to see a morph, you must have both alleles.

Wouldn't a homozygous lethal mutation be classified as co-dominant because the hets are different than the homozygous, the hets are capable of reproducing? Which also touches on another small point, would woma be considered homozygous lethal even though the homozygous animals live for a while?

By the way, it sounds like pinstripe is the first proven dominant ball python mutation. Breed two pinstripes together and the pinstripe phenotype offspring are 33% chance homozygous pinstripes.

These guys are making it complicated, even though I understand, I'll summarize

Dominant: If you breed a dominant ball python to another dominant ball python, all the babies will be dominant, or have the same mutation as the parents. Super Pastels are dominant because if you breed one to another one, you all get super pastels, see what I am saying?

Co-Dominant: If you breed a Co-Dominant to a Normal, you get 2 Normals and 2 Co-Dominant Genes out of every 4 eggs. But if you breed a co-dominant to another one you get 2 co-dominants, 1 dominant, and 1 normal out of every 4 eggs.Think of Co-dominants to be a "visual het."

Recessive: It is hard to explain recessive, but I will try. When you breed a het recessive morph to another het recessive morph(of the same morph), you will get 1 dominant, 2 het recessives, and 1 normal out of every 4 eggs and the hets and normals would be considered 66% poss. het. If you breed a het recessive to a normal, you will get 2 het recessives and 2 normals out of every 4 eggs and the babies will be considered 50% het. And if you breed a recessive morph to a het recessive morph you will get 2 dominant and 2 hets that will be 100% hets.

Hope I didn't lose you there and that it was easier for you to understand.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Wouldn't a homozygous lethal mutation be classified as co-dominant because the hets are different than the homozygous, the hets are capable of reproducing?

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That would be take on it Randy. There is a super form, it is just lethal.

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Which also touches on another small point, would woma be considered homozygous lethal even though the homozygous animals live for a while?

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And we call the Woma a co-dom so by the same token we ought to call the Spider a co-dom.

I think the big wrinkle is that the Pearl is the result of Kevin breeding his Type I Woma (aka Hidden Gene Woma) together... And it has just been assumed that the Type II (typical Woma) also produce a lethal super, which may or may not be the case...

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Originally Posted by guambomb832

These guys are making it complicated, even though I understand, I'll summarize

Dominant: If you breed a dominant ball python to another dominant ball python, all the babies will be dominant, or have the same mutation as the parents. Super Pastels are dominant because if you breed one to another one, you all get super pastels, see what I am saying?...

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You are using "dominant" some places where you should use "homozygous". I think there are some web sites and maybe even books that started this.

Pastel is a co-dominant mutation by definition because the heterozygous pastels and homozygous pastels (aka super pastel) are both mutations but don't look the same. Pastel doesn't change from co-dominant to dominant if you are looking at a super pastel. The mutation is still co-dominant, what changes is the genotype from heterozygous (regular pastels) to homozygous (super pastel).

A super pastel produces all pastels bred to a normal because of the definition of homozygous; having a matched pair of the gene you are talking about. Because both of the super pastel's copies of the gene at the pastel locus are the versions with the pastel mutation it can only pass the pastel mutation to its offspring. It has no normal for pastel versions to give.

Now pinstripe is a dominant mutation because the heterozygous and homozygous mutant animals look the same, the mutant pinstripe appearance. The vast majority of the pinstripes produced so far are heterozygous pinstripe but the mutation type is still dominant regardless of if your individual pinstripe is het pinstripe or homozygous pinstripe. It’s the genotype (heterozygous, homozygous) that changes between individuals but the mutation type (recessive, co-dominant, dominant) is a property of the mutation and is constant (at least relative to normal).

I just have one question. Why do we always struggle to make this EASY. The easiest way to understand any of the understood genetics in Ball Pythons, for the most part is to understand the definition of Heterozygous and Homozygous. If you understand those two words (along with penotype and genotype), then all of this is as simple as pie.