Why Are Snakes Considered Dumb?

I've seen mention of this more than once in my short time here, and it's being discussed in that "...disagree" thread.

Are snakes considered unable to learn anything? Or just BPs? If so, I have a story to tell that perhaps no one will believe re. slugs. Yes, slugs!

There's a little gap under our back door, enough for slugs to come inside. A few feet away from that back door are the dog and cat food bowls. (Slugs seem to prefer cat food over dog food.) I feed the cats very late at night, before I go to bed.

Eventually, a slug or two would appear late at night around the cat food bowls, and sometimes before the bowls were replenished. No other time of the day. Not even early evening or early night, but only late night, i.e. feeding time. They'd be gone by the morning. If I was extra late getting to the food bowls, the slug(s) would already be there, so it's not as if they smelled the food and then came in for chow time. They seem to have an internal clock and sense of direction to know exactly when to come in and where to go.

If slugs can learn that, and snakes seem higher up the scale of evolution, surely snakes are capable of learning.

Anyone who thinks all snakes are "dumb" have never spent any time around a big retic.
Cool slug story though:)

I don't think snakes are dumb.. or even un-intelligent you talk to any one that keeps any snake but I know for sure retics, cobra's, mamba's, even boas than they'll tell you that they learn and remember.

Food and feeding is more of a primal instinct, same as when fish in an aquarium look like they are happy to see you, they just know you=food but that is not a hard thing to learn so I would not necessarily say your slugs will be able to do trig, or even learn to jump (slow maybe) through any hoops.

I think snakes are a lot smarter than some think, or want to think compared tho their supreme beingness, but they are not going to play fetch with you either.

people consider snakes to be dumb because they are not self aware

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I know for sure retics, cobra's, mamba's, even boas than they'll tell you that they learn and remember.

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I'd love to hear stories about them. I find stuff like this fascinating, both the things we don't expect them to know that they do, and the things we do expect but they don't.

For example, what does not being "self aware" mean?

Snakes aren't dumb? I haven't heard one speak!:weirdface

No, really, If they are anything like us, I'm sure some are smarter than others and they all do stupid things from time to time. Also, most humans cannot do trig!

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Originally Posted by temec

people consider snakes to be dumb because they are not self aware

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It's impossible to know if an animal is self aware or not. We can't exactly ask them this. For all we know, they could be.

I suppose that people consider snakes dumb because they don't engage in the normal mammilian/bird behaviors. In that case, being social. When mammals and some birds meet another of their kind, chances are, they're going to have a dispute over territory. As far as I know, snakes don't do this. They kind of ignore each other. They also don't care for their young.

I really think it's because snakes are so..Alien. THey have no hair/feathers, the young don't have the large forehead/eyes that trigger the cuteness reaction (although, anyone with an affinity for reptiles will dispute this), and they make a very unpleasant noise when upset.

Snakes can definitely learn. I talked about this idea in some long lost thread a very long time ago. But I'll repeat. When I got my snake and began to feed her, I created a routine. I would take all hides, water, thermometer, etc. out of the tank, leaving the hide she was in for last (no biting!) After a few weeks, I noticed that as soon as I took that hide away, she would "glance around" and suddenly fall into a very obvious hunting attitude, if you will. I am 100% positive that she was able to notice the cause and effect of the furniture being removed. When the tank was empty, a rat entered. She learned that empty meant food. This has worked well for the both of us so far, seeing as I've had her for 2 1/2 years and no bites (knock on wood)!

Snakes can definitely learn, and I believe that if an organism can adapt in that manner, they really shouldn't be considered dumb. And one last point- how many times do we find that we have little Houdinis on our hands? ;)

If snakes never learned then they would never be able to be handled/get used to you.

I don't think the question was ever if they could learn or not, but how smart they are. Just like some breeds of dogs are smarter than others (their is always the exceptions) but for the most part I think snakes are smart within their ability to learn (good PC answer there I think ;) )

Snakes aren't really dumb but they arent the brightest creatures ever. they can learn basic stuff like when its feeding time, and tolerating being handled. Now, if they were dumb would they be able to adapt to living in captivity? They dont have the cereberal capacity to feel emotions such as love or anger and most of there actions are based on instinct (such as striking a keepers hand mistaking it for a prey item) but based on some reading I have done as of recent they can learn primitive feelings such as aggresion, fear, and pleasure. So they do have the capacity to learn and relate things to one another but not anything much further than that.

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Originally Posted by Christina

Snakes can definitely learn. I talked about this idea in some long lost thread a very long time ago. But I'll repeat. When I got my snake and began to feed her, I created a routine. I would take all hides, water, thermometer, etc. out of the tank, leaving the hide she was in for last (no biting!) After a few weeks, I noticed that as soon as I took that hide away, she would "glance around" and suddenly fall into a very obvious hunting attitude, if you will. I am 100% positive that she was able to notice the cause and effect of the furniture being removed. When the tank was empty, a rat entered. She learned that empty meant food. This has worked well for the both of us so far, seeing as I've had her for 2 1/2 years and no bites (knock on wood)!

Snakes can definitely learn, and I believe that if an organism can adapt in that manner, they really shouldn't be considered dumb. And one last point- how many times do we find that we have little Houdinis on our hands? ;)

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Interesting but I don't know that this is as much learning or training as it is conditioning...?

And there is a difference. All animals can be conditioned to react to stimulus, but not many can be trained. For example one of my kingsnake's will come to me if I tap on the floor. Have I trained him, or does he associate the tapping with the three times I fed him on the floor instead of his tank and now he's been conditioned? I'm betting on conditioning and not training.

I never thaought to see so many philosophical discussions on a BP forum!:D I truly believe that every animal species has its intelligent and less than intelligent members of its own respective species, but if you are comparing them to other animals, reptiles are significantly lower in brain capacity than birds or mammals. This should probably not be up for philosophical discussion, as much as biological. Biologically speaking, they are between amphibians and birds in cognitive ability.

Patricia, my take on it has always been the same. I do not think snakes are dumb. I think they are perfectly evolved to do exactly what they do and therefore have whatever instincts and "intelligence" (for wont of a better word) that they require to get by in life and to adjust to circumstances to their best advantage. No they don't do higher math, no they won't come running wagging their tail when we walk in the door but to judge a snake by a human or canine standard is silly. Apples to oranges stuff.

I think a lot of people tend to have an emotional response to thinking their snake is smart or dumb when it comes to their intractions with that snake. "oh it's too dumb to learn" "oh my snake loves me" "it bit me so it hates me" For me, I think human emotions can be messy things and it's awfully presumptious to impose them on a snake. They do just fine with whatever Mother Nature gave them as far as intelligence, instincts and emotions. The fact that we can't really understand them is just fine with me. I like a bit of mystery in my life. :)

"The Brain

The snake's brain (in structure) is very similar to a bird's brain but the snakes lacks the enlarged cerebral hemispheres found in birds and mammals. The cerebral is the part of the brain, which contains the learning. Sine the absence of the cerebral hemispheres, it is correct to say that snakes aren't very intelligent. But they can learn a fair amount. Some snakes have learnt when their feeding times are and often the owner will find them waiting." (The Snake Specialist, n.d.)

The Snake Specialist. (n.d.). The Anatomy Section. Retrieved July 21, 2009, from http://www.icon.co.za/~mvdmerwe/anatomy.htm

I think snakes are smarter than people... one word... Eve.

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Originally Posted by Vypyrz

I think snakes are smarter than people... one word... Eve.

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Ha ha! At least the most cunning/subtle creatures! (depending on translation):)

Great feedback! Whether it's called conditioning, training, or whatever, there's SOMETHING going on. I don't mean learning to perform tricks or using tools to their advantage, just brain function/capacity, showing preference, etc.

I still would like to know what not being "self aware" means. They aren't aware of themselves/their bodies? If that were the case, they'd constantly crash into things, or they wouldn't gravitate to the warm spot because they can't tell the difference. I must be misunderstanding "self aware".

Oh, another question somewhat related: Do you find that your snakes can tell the difference between who's holding them, or have a preference? We haven't had ours long enough to know, but from the few times I've held other people's snakes for a brief moment, those snakes knew they weren't with their regular person.

I believe they are aware of who is holding them and may react differently. It would be the height of stupidity for nature to design any animal that is so unaware of what's going on around them, especially a predator that has such highly developed senses. Mother Nature's no dumb broad. :)

Many animals react to humans that they "know" versus ones they have no experience with. Many animals react poorly to a nervous handler versus a confident handler. That reaction could be subtle or very obvious. It may be a reaction so subtle that an inexperienced person might not even notice but the animal's owner would see clearly. I know I've handled snakes that I was told were antsy for their new owners but for me they were fine or settled down quickly enough. I think snakes for instance do react to fear or unease in someone handling them. Makes sense to me since we humans excrete all sorts of signals we ourselves are quite blind to but are probably glaringly obvious to most of the animal kingdom.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

Anyone who thinks all snakes are "dumb" have never spent any time around a big retic.
Cool slug story though:)

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very true

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Originally Posted by Patricia

I still would like to know what not being "self aware" means. They aren't aware of themselves/their bodies? If that were the case, they'd constantly crash into things, or they wouldn't gravitate to the warm spot because they can't tell the difference. I must be misunderstanding "self aware".

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Self-awareness is nothing more than understanding your 'role' in the universe, or in a sense understanding that one day you will die. Being self-aware is a trait that AFAIK only humans have. And even the lowliest human contains the understanding that we are born then we die, it is for lack of a better word, the circle of life.

There are African Elephants that will hold 'ceremonies' for their dead, they will all gather around and trumpet into the air, in a sense paying their respects. Animals of all kinds do interesting things, but why they do these things nobody will ever truly know.

Snakes are not dumb/ignorant/dis-prepared by any means. Like was already stated they are perfectly designed for what they 'need' to do in their life. I know of a few people who have owned and currently own retics and they all have some quirky stories. One lady had a retic that was about 13ft or so and it 'learned' to open the door to the snake room by merely climbing up to the knob and back down the other side.

Snakes do exactly what they are supposed to in the wild, take care of small pests as well as large ones (depending on the snake.) The creator of this earth put them here to take care of an over abundance of unwanted creatures-works for me- those are just my thoughts!