I just got a breeding colony... A Momma Rat Question

I see that alot of people on here separate the moms when they give birth & for raising...

The person I got my breeding group from told me to keep all the moms together because they all act as nannys to the whole group of babies...

I have 3 females in one container... one has (11) 2 day old babies... they are all fine together it seems. The other 2 females have not birthed yet.

Figured I would get input.

I have enough tubs for them all to be individual, and had originally planned on them being that way... but when she said she kept them together, I just did that for now.

Thanks!

... you wont find many people telling you to seperate. Rats are great in small groups as moms. Take the male out once they are all prego though.

At least this worked flawlessly for me and many others I know


Shawn

I have seen large scale breeders do it successfully both ways. I separate the moms when they give birth, sometimes putting them back together about a week later or so if I am short on space. The reason I do this is because if several mommas drop babies at once, I find that they fight over the babies...essentially a big game of tug-of-war with a rat pink. Lots of them get killed in the process.

If you separate them to give birth, or there are no other birthing moms in the tubs, I don't see this fighting happen. After the babies are established, mom's tend to nanny each other's babies pretty well with minimal scuffling.

It's really an issue of what your goal is: fewer tubs, then use colonial breeding. Or, if you prefer to have the highest per momma output, then you will do well to separate birthing moms. Just my $.02.

JonV

Awesome thanks a million!!

Ya I have the male separated and the 3 females together.

I used to keep the moms together, but had a lot of issues with infant deaths. Some of the moms were eating the other mom's babies. I have much less of an issue now that I separate my females once they become gravid.

Hope this helps.

I guess I will see how it goes and if separation is necessary, then it can definitely be done :D

My friend and I have raised rats for both food and pets, I have kept everybody together, a lot of time we don't even take the father out unless the moms need a break. About the only time I separate the mom is if the cage I have them in won't work for babies, some of my pets are in chinchilla cages that babies can escape from. If the moms do fight over the babies I would separate but other than that leaving them together should be fine, I only really had a problem once but the other mom had lost her own litter. Every rat is different so once you know how they act,you will know how to proceed in the future.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I used to keep the moms together, but had a lot of issues with infant deaths. Some of the moms were eating the other mom's babies. I have much less of an issue now that I separate my females once they become gravid.

Hope this helps.

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Ditto. Also, I think it's "pregnant" rather than "gravid". :)

JonV

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Originally Posted by OFRD_GRL

I guess I will see how it goes and if separation is necessary, then it can definitely be done :D

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That's what I did. I tried colonial at first, then when I had pairs of mom's only coming out with 3-10 babies total due to deaths, I decided it was time to separate.

JonV

Thanks for all the input :D

I will get pictures tonight of all of them for you guys. Supposedly one of the moms puts out rex babys.. I dunno tho.. genetics in rats are not high point? :D

Rex is co-dom, look at the whiskers. I have seen some that look almost normal but the whiskers are still curly. The 'super' version is an animal that ends up half naked, making the single copy rex more appealing from a pet standpoint though the snake doesn't seem to care from a food standpoint.

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

That's what I did. I tried colonial at first, then when I had pairs of mom's only coming out with 3-10 babies total due to deaths, I decided it was time to separate.

JonV

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Interesting, I wonder if it is something to do with the differences in husbandry between pets and feeders, our breeders are kept in pretty much the same setup as our pets and we have had most of our babies survive.Some are both pets and breeders. We had trouble with the babies from one male but I think that was a genetics problem, because not a single baby ever survived from him. It is actually cheaper for me to buy feeders because mine eat a diet based on suebee's rat diet and are kept on tech-fresh with toys and hammocks and such. There were a couple times with one colony that had about 4 females that I had to take the excess to the reptile lab cause we just had an enormous amount born at once and neither as pets or feeders did I need that many. Usually they would have staggerred births but everybody had them at once.

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

That's what I did. I tried colonial at first, then when I had pairs of mom's only coming out with 3-10 babies total due to deaths, I decided it was time to separate.

JonV

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When you separated them how much did your production go up?

I keep mine together full time right now but have pondered pulling the females. The thing is, the difference between 10 babies and 13 is not significant given the extra time and space needed to house the moms individually.

Now if litter size went up to 15 or more, that may make a difference.

thanks in advance

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Originally Posted by wilomn

When you separated them how much did your production go up?

I keep mine together full time right now but have pondered pulling the females. The thing is, the difference between 10 babies and 13 is not significant given the extra time and space needed to house the moms individually.

Now if litter size went up to 15 or more, that may make a difference.

thanks in advance

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I didn't keep any quantitative data, but I noted that I was pulling significantly fewer dead babies out of the tubs. It could be interesting to keep track of this.

I also did note some females were worse about this than others, perhaps keeping siblings/related females together would help.

JonV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

I didn't keep any quantitative data, but I noted that I was pulling significantly fewer dead babies out of the tubs. It could be interesting to keep track of this.

I also did note some females were worse about this than others, perhaps keeping siblings/related females together would help.

JonV

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Dead as in died, or dead as in partly eaten?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Dead as in died, or dead as in partly eaten?

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Some were torn/partially eaten, some were just dead. I wonder on the dead ones if they were trampled in the scuffle though.

JonV

One more thing that I think is worth point out is the longevity of your breeders. In a colonial setup the females will be chaining litters back to back (if the male is not pulled out), and will be need to be replaced faster.

If you use momma tubs or pull out the male, your females will last longer.

JonV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

One more thing that I think is worth point out is the longevity of your breeders. In a colonial setup the females will be chaining litters back to back (if the male is not pulled out), and will be need to be replaced faster.

If you use momma tubs or pull out the male, your females will last longer.

JonV

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I've wondered about breeding life as well but I generally replace all the adults at 12 to 14 months anyway.

Interesting stuff.

I find deadfornoreason babies from time to time as well. It's usually from a first time mother, I think, or the heat spikes. Even with A/C we still get some hot days here.

I've also noticed in the last 6 months or so, that's all I've been keeping records for, that in groups of 1.6 I get tons of pinks but as they get older the moms get skinny. So, if you need pinks are are pulling regularly, this is a good ratio.

At 1.5 I get lots of babies and not so skinny moms IF I leave all the babies in and nice average moms if I pull a few every week.

Lower than 1.5, 1.4 or 1.3 I get a fair amount of babies, not as many as in higher male to female ratios, as is to be expected, and everyone does just fine even if I leave all babies until weaning.

I shoot for 1.5 because I do pull some almost every week. What may be over crowded at birthing will consistently be lessened as the weeks go by but I do keep some at 1.6 just for the extra pinkies.

Moms that kill or tubs that don't produce the way I think they should are "recycled" as soon as I determine they are not up to snuff.

Ya I won't be breeding them past 12months of age anyways. And when the time comes I will just switch out to a non related male

However I did pull the male. But will be breeding somewhat consecutively with these 3 females. Once I get babies (grown) to breed I will be spacing it out, and more females. In order to give them all a vaca.

Reasons to separate:
http://www.ratbehavior.org/CommunalNesting.htm

1. Studies show females in the wild prefer separate nesting chambers.

2.If one female eats her young/doesn't nurse/etc, you know who is cannibalizing/lazy without too much investigation.

3.If the litters are not sync'd within days, the older pups decrease the survival of the younger pups. "...in mixed-age nests the younger animals must compete with older, larger animals for milk, which puts them at a disadvantage. In rats in particular, the younger animals may be unable to nurse from their own mother because the older litter has rendered her teats unusable (Sachs and Rosenblatt 1974)."

4.One mother can monopolize both litters, which decreases survival of the litters because each animal gets less milk and of poorer quality.

5. (4. cont) Females produce more milk, but not on a linear scale. "...The more young a female has to nurse, the more milk she produces. However, this increase is not linear, so in large litters each infant gets less milk per head, and the quality of the milk decreases as well. König et al. (1988)"

6. Studies show that litters raised separately are more likely to survive to weaning. "In general, captive females who raise their litters alone rear almost all of their young to weaning age (89%). Communal nesting does not enhance litter survival in captivity, and in some cases communal nesting leads to higher litter mortality (infanticide of the first litter, high mortality of the second litter)."

7. Unrelated females are less likely to share a nest. "Pairs of sisters who have grown up together are more likely to pool their offspring and to share parenting than females who have only known each other for a few weeks. Unfamiliar females tend not to pool their offspring, and when they do, one female tends to monopolize the litter. Familiar pairs of sisters are more successful than unfamiliar pairs: overall they produce more weaned offspring and are less likely to commit infanticide than unfamiliar pairs."

8. Stress plays a large role in health, stressed females are more susceptible to illness.


Obviously, people will tell you to do it. If you feel comfortable with the reasons stated above, no one is going to stop you. ;)

I prefer to have complete control and insight into every female in my colony. This way I know when one female isn't producing large litters, what females are poor mothers, what her age is vs. production output, if I should hold females back from her line etc...

WOW, awesome, just awesome. That is some great info, I totally appreciate it :D

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Reasons to separate:
http://www.ratbehavior.org/CommunalNesting.htm

1. Studies show females in the wild prefer separate nesting chambers.

2.If one female eats her young/doesn't nurse/etc, you know who is cannibalizing/lazy without too much investigation.

3.If the litters are not sync'd within days, the older pups decrease the survival of the younger pups. "...in mixed-age nests the younger animals must compete with older, larger animals for milk, which puts them at a disadvantage. In rats in particular, the younger animals may be unable to nurse from their own mother because the older litter has rendered her teats unusable (Sachs and Rosenblatt 1974)."

4.One mother can monopolize both litters, which decreases survival of the litters because each animal gets less milk and of poorer quality.

5. (4. cont) Females produce more milk, but not on a linear scale. "...The more young a female has to nurse, the more milk she produces. However, this increase is not linear, so in large litters each infant gets less milk per head, and the quality of the milk decreases as well. König et al. (1988)"

6. Studies show that litters raised separately are more likely to survive to weaning. "In general, captive females who raise their litters alone rear almost all of their young to weaning age (89%). Communal nesting does not enhance litter survival in captivity, and in some cases communal nesting leads to higher litter mortality (infanticide of the first litter, high mortality of the second litter)."

7. Unrelated females are less likely to share a nest. "Pairs of sisters who have grown up together are more likely to pool their offspring and to share parenting than females who have only known each other for a few weeks. Unfamiliar females tend not to pool their offspring, and when they do, one female tends to monopolize the litter. Familiar pairs of sisters are more successful than unfamiliar pairs: overall they produce more weaned offspring and are less likely to commit infanticide than unfamiliar pairs."

8. Stress plays a large role in health, stressed females are more susceptible to illness.


Obviously, people will tell you to do it. If you feel comfortable with the reasons stated above, no one is going to stop you. ;)

I prefer to have complete control and insight into every female in my colony. This way I know when one female isn't producing large litters, what females are poor mothers, what her age is vs. production output, if I should hold females back from her line etc...

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Yeah, that Connie, she really knows her rat sh...er stuff.

Seriously though, she is a wealth of information on breeding and keeping rats.