Permetherine Poisoning - Some Qs

This is a little complicated so please bear with me but I'd like some advice.

A friend of mine who runs a shop was able to get me a deal on a piebald ball python from a local breeder - because he bought so many snakes he was able to get the pied's price knocked down. Nothing that's unbelievable, but a good deal. He was going to keep the snake in the back of his shop in QT until I had paid it off.

So, I made the first payment, two weeks passed, everything is good. Then it was time for me to make the second payment last Friday. But the guy called me on... Tuesday I think and said there was a problem. The snake had a head wobble and it's tongue was lolling from it's mouth. He'd already rushed it to the vet and he said the vet said it was likely a bad/unusual reaction to permetherine in the QT tank, which was left over from a previous snake being in the enclosure and having it as a preventative treatment two months ago. Still with me? So the vet gave the snake some type of syrum to counteract the permetherine and it's apparently doing better, but hasn't 100% recovered when I last asked on Saturday.

I'm not making anymore payments on the snake for now because of this issue. My questions are these: Could those neuro problems be permanent? If they are, would you still buy the snake as a breeder or no? Do you think it may have other lasting issues from this incident? What would you do, if you were me, and this was your friend?

I have no clue what permethrin poisioning is, but if the snake has had any kind of neuro problem, no matter how good the deal is, I wouldnt even think about buying it. I want all my snakes to have clean bills of health even more so if i plan on breeding them.

friend or no friend I wouldnt purchase a snake that has had those kind of problems.

See... that's where I'm leaning too. But at the same time I don't want to just come off and sound like I'm being ****ish, especially if the snake can and will make a full recovery (I just don't know if it will).

I would be worried about the long term implications, shortened life span or something.

I am too, which is why I'm asking to see if anyone knows anything. I'll also call my own vet tomorrow and ask her the same types of questions.

I a little confused here, the snake was put in a tub that was used to treat another snake 2 months prior (I'm assuming for mites). and still had enough Permetherine residue to cause the pied neuro damages?

1. was the first snake bathed in the stuff?
2. doesn't this guy sanitize his equipment?
3. as wilomn would put it "I smell tuna"

Sorry, it is kind of confusing. From what I was told the permetherin was used as a preventative on the previous snake only, it didn't actually have mites. He told me the snake had a very unusual reaction to the permetherin becasue allegedly the syrum worked some.

1. The pied was not supposed to have been treated. As for the previous snake I have no idea.
2. ...I dunno. Maybe not since he thought the other snake was healthy.
3. I definately see where you're coming from. Makes me a little... more leery too.

On the paperwork that comes with Provent-a-mite (which contains permethrin as the active ingredient) it states that once dry, it will remain effective for "up to 30 days or longer" and also that you should re-treat every 30 days as a preventative. For the product to last 60 days, in a high enough concentration to cause a severe reaction seems extreme. Not to mention the fact that the enclosure should have been fully sterilized prior to introducing a different snake.

I personally would not buy the snake. It has suffered neurological distress, some or most of which could be permanent. It doesn't sound as if it is being kept in the cleanest/best environment and there could possibly be more to the story than you are being told. I'd steer clear and save my money to buy from a reputable breeder where you can get the snake into your hands with it having to go through a middle man first.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

On the paperwork that comes with Provent-a-mite (which contains permethrin as the active ingredient) it states that once dry, it will remain effective for "up to 30 days or longer" and also that you should re-treat every 30 days as a preventative. For the product to last 60 days, in a high enough concentration to cause a severe reaction seems extreme. Not to mention the fact that the enclosure should have been fully sterilized prior to introducing a different snake.

I personally would not buy the snake. It has suffered neurological distress, some or most of which could be permanent. It doesn't sound as if it is being kept in the cleanest/best environment and there could possibly be more to the story than you are being told. I'd steer clear and save my money to buy from a reputable breeder where you can get the snake into your hands with it having to go through a middle man first.

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I agree - I also wonder if he may have actually had a temp spike with the animal as well - which would describe some of the neurological problems the snake is displaying.

At this point, I'd say thanks, but no thanks. Whatever happened to the pied appears to be the result of the care it received from your friend. Your friend should not expect you to bail him out by completing the purchase.

yes this sounds like a temp spike more than a chemical issues ( unless he sprayed the snake and does not wanto own up to the fact. I know this chemical is dangerous to cats, as mom got one that getting over the issuesfrom getting the fles treatment on it that was 55%permethine. I would not purchase the snake as the nero issues can prevent it from eating and other things. but i am leaning more ot a heat spike issue .. I can only see this being chemical from direct contact and or it was sprayed andtherew was no air holes.

i agree with everyone else. neuro issues are serious and it may effect the animal in the long run. i think there is a lot this guy isn't telling you about the incident. i would not purchase the animal and try to get my money back.

I kind of wonder if this snake had issues before your friend got it which was why it was tossed in at a discount...
I'm not too sure what morphs make a pied, as I do not follow breeding and genetics much, but is it possible for pieds to get the "wobble" like spiders are known for?...


Rob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mlededee

On the paperwork that comes with Provent-a-mite (which contains permethrin as the active ingredient) it states that once dry, it will remain effective for "up to 30 days or longer" and also that you should re-treat every 30 days as a preventative. For the product to last 60 days, in a high enough concentration to cause a severe reaction seems extreme. Not to mention the fact that the enclosure should have been fully sterilized prior to introducing a different snake.

I personally would not buy the snake. It has suffered neurological distress, some or most of which could be permanent. It doesn't sound as if it is being kept in the cleanest/best environment and there could possibly be more to the story than you are being told. I'd steer clear and save my money to buy from a reputable breeder where you can get the snake into your hands with it having to go through a middle man first.

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Excellent analysis. You actually saved me from having to type what you said. I almost would have said it exactly the same. Stay away from this deal. Especially if your intention is to breed, why not buy the best (even if the price is a bit higher).

I hope you got a written document saying that you have payed this guy two times, that way you can get your money back.

I see the general consensus is to not buy the snake. Is this from a pure breeder point of view? What if he wanted to buy the snake as a non breeder, would he still risk the chance of this snake could cost more in the long run?

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Originally Posted by Elise.m

I hope you got a written document saying that you have payed this guy two times, that way you can get your money back.

I see the general consensus is to not buy the snake. Is this from a pure breeder point of view? What if he wanted to buy the snake as a non breeder, would he still risk the chance of this snake could cost more in the long run?

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Even as a pet, I would want to be purchasing a healthy animal, not one that now has neurological damage, especially one as pricey as a pied (discount or not).

Pet or future breeder I'd have two major issues with this purchase.

One is long term damage to the snake from this exposure and in fact was it this exposure or was the snake fully healthy in the first place. I'd want to know where this snake came from and speak with that person.

The other would be trusting the person I'm buying this snake from. There is something very wrong with a snake going into QT in an enclosure that was never disinfected from the previous snake. That shows a serious lack of basic husbandry skills. Also I really question what was sprayed in that enclosure. For it to be deadly still after all that time, well either something is not being said truthfully to you or the product used was never reptile safe in the first place.

I'd like to know what this syrum, read magical elixir, is. I know of nothing that will stop neurological problems simply by being injected. I'm not talking about opioids, which don't cure but do make for a mellow time, but an actual making better by the injection of.

It's not Tuna, more along the lines of Spanish Mackerel to this old and worn out nose.

Thanks everyone. I think I am going to have to let him know that I'd not like to pick up that animal. It may put us on bad terms, I dunno (people are people and people aren't always reasonable when it comes to money, you know what I mean?) but I agree I don't think I want this snake in my collection anymore. I wanted a high white to begin with anyway and this isn't a high white.

Elise.m, I did at least have the forsight to do that. I almost didn't, because I fail like that a little bit.

wilomn, you know, I haven't the faintest idea.