Sellers, take care Kristy1277

Kristy1277, also known as Kris, bought many things from me recently. Nearly everything I sold her, she asked for some kind of discount. Five bucks here, free stuff there. She bought my nicest snakes for steep discounts, then asked for more. She asked if i had more free water bottles to give her when she bought my rat cages and I said 'no', because i thought I gave them all to her. She came over with her friend to buy more stuff and spotted some spares I'd recently found in the closet. She asked me if she could have them all for free, I said yes if she gave one to her friend who was buying a cage. She proceeded to fight with the friend who picked one that she liked, even though she had just gotten a whole bag for free.

Enter the conflict: one of my females was gravid. Turns out she took when she was put together with my fire, who is now deceased. According to Kris, she laid some slugs and a possibly good egg, which looks not-that-great. I was devastated at the loss of my fire, and asked her if she would please give me the maybe-good egg. I didn't expect her to, because I've observed how stingy and selfish she has been with me and with her friend, and of course she said "no".

I know she is well within her rights to decline me this courtesy. I asked politely, I explained that it was a sentimental issue, that my fire departed suddenly and, I thought, left nothing of himself behind when he went. I don't care if the snake in this egg is a normal male, it's still important to me, and I explained that. I offered to trade something if that would help convince her, but it didn't. She told me that I should have kept the snake and she is sorry. That's fine, but it lacks empathy, especially considering how many things I gave into her about, regarding discounts and free items.

Did she hold up her end of the bargain? Yes, and for that reason she is a good trader. What makes her trade practices questionable is the constant talk-downs, and now, a complete lack of empathy for my situation after I had shown her a lot of good-will. She's not sketchy, just stingy and very selfish. If you're a nice person, be aware that she may well take advantage of that, and offer nothing in return if you request it, regardless of how personally important it is that she offer you some empathy.

Wow sounds cold..

Question: why did you sell the gravid female if the offspring meant so much to you?

Probably didnt know. I bought a snake that had laid the day before I showed up to pick it up, owner just didnt pay attention to ovulations and wasnt expecting a clutch. Stuff happens I suppose.

That's really slimy of her considering your offer. People are greedy, and since you said it was a fire that bred her, you can bet she is hoping for a fire out of the egg. I wouldn't have told her what was bred to it before I sold. She likely would have never known what a fire bp looks like, and could have easily sold it back to you.

That's all speculation of course, this person may feel entitled to tell you no for good reason, sorry for the bum luck.

Well that's just awful, mean people suck

Well I guess I'll play the devil's advocate here but Morphie I don't see where you got taken advantage of at all.

If you decide as a seller to discount anything or give it away outright free, whether that is a living creature or a supply item, why is it the buyer's fault you made this decision? You have every right to say no to anything a buyer asks. You said yes, yet you come back later and want to blame another for your decisions?

As far as the gravid female, unless I'm mistaken you sold her not knowing if she was gravid or not. You did, however, pair this snake so the chance she was gravid was there. You made the decision not to wait out the time to find out if in fact a clutch sired by your now deceased fire was brewing.

As much as I feel bad for you regarding your fire, from a fair business standpoint I don't think you have a leg to stand on. If you had agreed to a sale wherein any resultant offspring where yours or split 50/50 but you didn't - you sold a possibly gravid female and now want to complain because your buyer didn't hand over a "bonus" type of offspring. Business is business Morphie and emotions like empathy do not have a place there nor can be demanded from someone.

I don't think you should be referring to someone else's "talksdowns" after you are publically calling another person out with some pretty negative terms yourself.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Well I guess I'll play the devil's advocate here but Morphie I don't see where you got taken advantage of at all.

If you decide as a seller to discount anything or give it away outright free, whether that is a living creature or a supply item, why is it the buyer's fault you made this decision? You have every right to say no to anything a buyer asks. You said yes, yet you come back later and want to blame another for your decisions?

As far as the gravid female, unless I'm mistaken you sold her not knowing if she was gravid or not. You did, however, pair this snake so the chance she was gravid was there and you must have decided not to wait out the time to find out if in fact a clutch sired by your now deceased fire was brewing.

As much as I feel bad for you regarding your fire, from a fair business standpoint I don't think you have a leg to stand on. If you had agreed to a sale wherein any resultant offspring where yours or split 50/50 but you didn't - you sold a possibly gravid female and now want to complain because your buyer didn't hand over a "bonus" type of offspring. Business is business Morphie and emotions like empathy do not have a place there nor can be demanded from a seller.

I don't think you should be referring to someone else's "talksdowns" after you are publically calling another person out with some pretty negative terms yourself.

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I completely agree with you Jo, but he isn't here preaching about bad business. He gave her a bunch of extra stuff out of the goodness of his heart, not as a "seller" and is just upset that kindness is not reciprocated. I dont disagree with the way he feels. In the business sense, it was a fair deal and he added bonuses. But if you factor in the fact that we are humans, capable of emotion, then you can see where he is upset that she wasnt willing to be as kind as he was. If what he says is true, she is absolutely a selfish chick with a sense of entitlement based on her greed for water bottles.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

I completely agree with you Jo, but he isn't here preaching about bad business. He gave her a bunch of extra stuff out of the goodness of his heart, not as a "seller" and is just upset that kindness is not reciprocated. I dont disagree with the way he feels. In the business sense, it was a fair deal and he added bonuses. But if you factor in the fact that we are humans, capable of emotion, then you can see where he is upset that she wasnt willing to be as kind as he was. If what he says is true, she is absolutely a selfish chick with a sense of entitlement based on her greed for water bottles.

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Morphie is a she, actually.

When I give things to people out of the kindness of my heart, I don't require that they reciprocate, nor do I call them selfish when they don't. We're hearing one side of the story. I'd like to hear Kristy's side as well before I pass any judgement.

This post was made based on emotion, and has nothing to do with the transaction and whether Kristy is a good or bad person to do business with. I don't see how the emotional side of it is relevant to someone else doing business with her.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Wow sounds cold..

Question: why did you sell the gravid female if the offspring meant so much to you?

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Had no idea she'd taken. No observed ovulation or swelling of any kind.

I made it clear that I am not denouncing her as a business person, because she did everything right on that account.

That said, we are all human. I helped her out when she was short 10 bucks for the herpstat she was buying and let her have it anyway. I gave her the water bottles. This stuff came from me because I am a kind and helpful person, and I want to help people when I can.

Does she have to give me the egg? No. Should she? Yes, because even if it's a boring male normal, it would mean infinitely more to me to hatch and keep him than it would for her. She chooses not to, and that's fine, but it's really lame of her considering the kindness I offered when she needed it.

Yes, it's emotional, and that is what this thread is about. The business end of everything is fine, but don't let your emotions get involved with this girl, because she will not reciprocate or take care of yours, should you be the one in need.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I don't think you should be referring to someone else's "talksdowns" after you are publically calling another person out with some pretty negative terms yourself.

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By talk-downs, i mean that almost every time she bought something from me, she asked me to take 5, 10 dollars off the price, even if it was already priced well below resale value. She bought thermostats, racks, snakes, and cages from me.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

Does she have to give me the egg? No. Should she? Yes, because even if it's a boring male normal, it would mean infinitely more to me to hatch and keep him than it would for her. She chooses not to, and that's fine, but it's really lame of her considering the kindness I offered when she needed it.

Yes, it's emotional, and that is what this thread is about. The business end of everything is fine, but don't let your emotions get involved with this girl, because she will not reciprocate or take care of yours, should you be the one in need.

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I don't agree that she "should" give you the egg either though. Again, your opinion is driven by emotion. You posted this as a warning to other sellers. A warning not to get emotionally invested in Kristy? A business transaction should have nothing to do with hurt feelings. You were under no obligation to give her breaks, and if those breaks came with conditions, you should have made those conditions clear at the time of making the deal.

Would it be a nice thing to do? Sure. But she doesn't have to, nor "should" she.

The more I think about it, I can't imagine any breeder selling an animal, then contacting the buyer at a later date and saying "I bred the female you bought to a snake that just died, so now I think you should send me the egg/offspring".

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I don't agree that she "should" give you the egg either though. Again, your opinion is driven by emotion. You posted this as a warning to other sellers. A warning not to get emotionally invested in Kristy? A business transaction should have nothing to do with hurt feelings. You were under no obligation to give her breaks, and if those breaks came with conditions, you should have made those conditions clear at the time of making the deal.

Would it be a nice thing to do? Sure. But she doesn't have to, nor "should" she.

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Morphie is just trying to warn anyone that does business with her not to expect any sympathy back if you give her some.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The more I think about it, I can't imagine any breeder selling an animal, then contacting the buyer at a later date and saying "I bred the female you bought to a snake that just died, so now I think you should send me the egg/offspring".

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she contacted me, to tell me a clutch had been laid and ask what had the snake been bred to. She told me she was unprepared for it, and that she didn't think it would survive. I wrote back and gave her the requested info, and then asked for the unexpected egg, as it would mean a lot to me.

I understand what you're saying, and right now I regret that I ever cut her any slack. I guess i should change the warning to : sellers, never do anything nice for someone, because if you ever need anything nice back from them, it will hurt all the worse when they inevitably decline, and you will feel very taken-for-granted.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The more I think about it, I can't imagine any breeder selling an animal, then contacting the buyer at a later date and saying "I bred the female you bought to a snake that just died, so now I think you should send me the egg/offspring".

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This was also not as formal of a transaction as you are probably used to, since you tend to buy from the bigger guys. This is small-hobbyist to small-hobbyist, and the relationships tend to be a bit more casual and personal when these transactions take place.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

she contacted me, to tell me a clutch had been laid and ask what had the snake been bred to. She told me she was unprepared for it, and that she didn't think it would survive. I wrote back and gave her the requested info, and then asked for the unexpected egg, as it would mean a lot to me.

I understand what you're saying, and right now I regret that I ever cut her any slack. I guess i should change the warning to : sellers, never do anything nice for someone, because if you ever need anything nice back from them, it will hurt all the worse when they inevitably decline, and you will feel very taken-for-granted.

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Now I have to say something. You appear to be a very generous person. Stay that way. There aren't enough nice people left in the world already.
The only mistake you made was in assuming every one else should think the way you do. They don't, sorry

I have a suggestion. If the animal means that much to you why not call her up and offer to buy her a replacement animal. If it hatches out fire, offer her a fire for fire swap. If it is a normal offer to buy it from her.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

This was also not as formal of a transaction as you are probably used to, since you tend to buy from the bigger guys. This is small-hobbyist to small-hobbyist, and the relationships tend to be a bit more casual and personal when these transactions take place.

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I'm a small hobbyist - I've done business with other small hobbiests. I've even done breeding loans with other small hobbiest FRIENDS, and our personal relationships are very casual - however, we have 2 and 3 page long contracts that spells out EVERYTHING so that nothing is mis-understood about our agreement and expectations are clearly laid out.

If you did things for her out of the goodness of your heart, then true altruism does not ever measure the level of "goodness" given back to them, nor keep score.

Does it suck? Sure it does. Does it warrant a warning to others not to do business with her? Absolutely not.

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Originally Posted by tonkatoyman

Now I have to say something. You appear to be a very generous person. Stay that way.

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I couldn't help it if i wanted. I might as well just go get my SUCKER tattoo right now.

What do you think? Forehead so they can read it when they meet me? Chest so they can read it when I give them my shirt? Or back, so they can read it when they stab me?

(i know that's a little extreme - i feel incredibly crappy and cynical right now. Sorry.)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Does it suck? Sure it does. Does it warrant a warning to others not to do business with her? Absolutely not.

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I never issued such a warning, Robin. I only said that she does not reciprocate special kindnesses, so folks should be wary of offering them to her.

I stated, twice now, that as a strictly-business sort of person, she's fine. This is not a warning against deals, only a warning against niceties.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

This was also not as formal of a transaction as you are probably used to, since you tend to buy from the bigger guys. This is small-hobbyist to small-hobbyist, and the relationships tend to be a bit more casual and personal when these transactions take place.

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I have to disagree with this. Business is business. Whether you're dealing with thousands of dollars per transaction...or a handful of single dollar bills. Part of the problem with this "industry" that we all want to be a part of, is so many people who refuse to take the business end of it seriously and treat other people like crap because "it's just a hobby"..."it's just a few dollars"....or "that's just the way I am." And anyone who can't treat the business part of the hobby as it should be treated, WILL feel it come back and bite them in the butt.

I'm very sorry you lost your fire. But I'm even more sorry that you feel you're owed something special just because you treated someone kindly. Kindness not offered freely and without expectations is not a kindness at all...but merely an attempt at manipulation.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

I couldn't help it if i wanted. I might as well just go get my SUCKER tattoo right now.

What do you think? Forehead so they can read it when they meet me? Chest so they can read it when I give them my shirt? Or back, so they can read it when they stab me?

(i know that's a little extreme - i feel incredibly crappy and cynical right now. Sorry.)

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It goes with the territory. My wife generously gave a "Firend" money to help with the rent. This person promptly called someone and said "lets go out to eat"...does that mean my wife will stop being generous. No, just more careful

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Originally Posted by JLC

I have to disagree with this. Business is business. Whether you're dealing with thousands of dollars per transaction...or a handful of single dollar bills. Part of the problem with this "industry" that we all want to be a part of, is so many people who refuse to take the business end of it seriously and treat other people like crap because "it's just a hobby"..."it's just a few dollars"....or "that's just the way I am." And anyone who can't treat the business part of the hobby as it should be treated, WILL feel it come back and bite them in the butt.

I'm very sorry you lost your fire. But I'm even more sorry that you feel you're owed something special just because you treated someone kindly. Kindness not offered freely and without expectations is not a kindness at all...but merely an attempt at manipulation.

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:bow::bow::bow::bow::bow: Yes Yes Yes !!!!!!! You said it!!!

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Originally Posted by JLC

Kindness not offered freely and without expectations is not a kindness at all...but merely an attempt at manipulation.

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I expected nothing when I gave it. When I needed it back, and it was not received, I could not help but remember how nice I had been to her, and feel awful that it was one-sided.

All I'm doing is telling people that kindness spent towards forming relationships with this girl will be one-sided, based on my experience. This is not why I do things for people, but it is why it hurts when they don't remember or reciprocate what I did.

Just one more nail in the coffin, i guess.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

I expected nothing when I gave it. When I needed it back, and it was not received, I could not help but remember how nice I had been to her, and feel awful that it was one-sided.

All I'm doing is telling people that kindness spent towards forming relationships with this girl will be one-sided, based on my experience. This is not why I do things for people, but it is why it hurts when they don't remember or reciprocate what I did.

Just one more nail in the coffin, i guess.

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Sure it can hurt. And when it hurts, most folks will go, "wow, that sucked"...and move on. But when someone feels compelled to call another person out publicly and throw their faults into the face of everyone else in their circle.....that, to me, is far more than being disappointed. It's continuing to try and manipulate the situation to get what you want. You've said over and over again that you're not trying to make her look like a bad business person....AND YET you post this "feedback" in the BUSINESS section of the site with a subject line intended to make sellers beware of this person. :confuzd:

This is a trader feedback forum, yes? Does that exclude any part of the trading experience? What if she had kicked my dog while she was over at my house buying snakes? That's not terribly relevant to the business part of the transaction - would I be allowed to warn people about that? Where do you draw the line?

I would gladly consent to a better-worded, appropriate title for this thread, but I think it's still fair to have posted, as I have included, in detail, the nature of the conflict, and what, specifically, I am warning other traders away from doing (particularly because she ASKS you for it - she says "give this" or "discount that" and is obviously not willing to do much in return).

I, in particular, as a buyer AND a seller, would appreciate being warned about people like that. For someone who is a pushover like me, this stuff gets pretty painful.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

This is a trader feedback forum, yes? Does that exclude any part of the trading experience? What if she had kicked my dog while she was over at my house buying snakes? Would I be allowed to warn people about that? Where do you draw the line?

I would gladly consent to a better-worded, appropriate title for this thread, but I think it's still fair to have posted, as I have included, in detail, the nature of the conflict, and what, specifically, I am warning other traders away from doing (particularly because she ASKS you for it - she says "give this" or "discount that" and is obviously not willing to do much in return).

I, in particular, as a buyer, would appreciate being warned about people like that. For someone who is a pushover like me, this stuff gets pretty painful.

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Nobody is pulling your post or drawing any lines in the sand. Just challenging your reasoning, which is going to happen if you feel you must share something like this in a public venue. And if it hurts THIS bad...then I simply want to challenge you again, to reconsider WHY you bother being kind to others in the first place. I'm not asking you to justify it HERE....just suggesting a little soul searching in the privacy of your own heart.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

I expected nothing when I gave it. When I needed it back, and it was not received, I could not help but remember how nice I had been to her, and feel awful that it was one-sided.

All I'm doing is telling people that kindness spent towards forming relationships with this girl will be one-sided, based on my experience. This is not why I do things for people, but it is why it hurts when they don't remember or reciprocate what I did.

Just one more nail in the coffin, i guess.

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So then this post was your way to "give back" to her, so to speak? It sounds like a personal problem, that deals with your hurt feelings, and really has no business as "feedback" on the buyer, nor do I think anyone needs to be warned about her.

Would you (or have you) post this on the BOI to issue this "warning"? The intent seems to be to damage her ability to purchase from other sellers. If someone were to ask me for a discount, if I didn't feel good about it, I'd say no. If I didn't have a problem with it, I'd offer something, expecting nothing in return.

correct me if im wrong but it sounds like your saying its a bad thing to be a good person. There needs to be more people in the world like that, she just needs to learn to say no, only give discounts to return customers or friends.

As a recovering pushover, I appreciate threads like this. I think it was worded fine, and I know that Kristy will likely make good on pre-agreed upon terms, but I'd like to know these kinds of things, so I can be prepared for people like this before I invite them to my house to make me any offers. Morphie was probably kicking herself after she agreed to each lowball or free offer, which isn't Kristy's fault, but then to not see any of the kindness returned when asked is just another blow. I know Kristy didn't rip anybody off, but it's still a situation that I'm glad to see spelled out here so sellers can be prepared to stick to their predetermined, already low prices, knowing that she's going to be in your face asking you to give her huge discounts.

Why are all you admin trying to put her down so much?





If this were all of YOU in this situation.....you would be pulling the same cards.

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Originally Posted by matt71915

correct me if im wrong but it sounds like your saying its a bad thing to be a good person. There needs to be more people in the world like that, she just needs to learn to say no, only give discounts to return customers or friends.

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There's nothing wrong with being a good person. Nothing at all. I've given away snakes to several people to give them a hand up, or replace an animal that they've lost. I've done this privately, with no need to be publically acknowledged for it. Only the people who I gave those snakes to, and I know about it, and the details. I expect absolutely NOTHING in return from any of the people who received these animals (and kindness) from me.

It becomes less an issue of being a good person and more of an issue of being self-serving when you use that kindess as a sort of "blackmail" because someone didn't return the kindness to your satisfaction and then run to a forum to "report" just how your kindness wasn't reciprocated. It makes one question the genuineness of the original kindness.

I wonder if Kristy had known that the kindnessess would be thrown back up in her face at a later date, if she would have gone through with the transaction. She hasn't presented her side of the story, so who knows?

Morphie, did you send Kristy a link to this thread so that she can respond?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

So then this post was your way to "give back" to her, so to speak?

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No, and I'm not sure how you got that out of what I said.

She didn't seriously low-ball me either, for the record. She nickel-and-dimed me on already painfully low prices after I lowered them again already, at what felt like was every opportunity. It was almost insulting, but like I said, I'm a sucker, and it's important to me to be helpful when I can.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

If this were all of YOU in this situation.....you would be pulling the same cards.

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I absolutely would not Patrick. What makes you come to that conclusion?

There is 100% nothing wrong with being a "Nice" person to do business with. There are loads of people out there that can do both. I think there is a little bit of a preconception about buyer seller/relationship. The items you gave her had nothing to do with her purchase. She purchased the snake and was able to talk you out of some free-bees in the process. She paid the price you were willing to except for a snake who's reproductive condition is your responsiablity to verify (if its that important to you). You were satisfied with both the price and the condition of the snake you sold. Had she gotten a male instead of a female when she paid for a female then that's a mistake that you need to fix. But not knowing if a snakes is gravid when your the one thats been breeding her isn't grounds for requesting the offspring. It's a mistake like mis-sexing, or shipping the wrong animal, as the seller these are mistakes that you have to bare the result of not the buyer.

All the free-bees and discounts were given out of the goodness of your heart however, once her transaction is complete with you she no long is obligated to further your business relationship. You owe her nothing she owes you nothing. The fact that the egg laid is the only offspring from your fire while sentimental to you has nothing to do with her purchase.

Is it sad that you lost your fire? Yes………………..Are you entitled to anything once the transaction is completed and both parties are satisfied * with the said transaction? No

*And you were both satisfied until a clutch was laid.

Now if you have had a contract stipulating that the female was sold as gravid and that once eggs had hatched the clutch should be split that would be a whole other story.

A business deal is business deal whether dealing with big guys or small time breeders, and an act of kindness is an act of kindness which means nothing should be expected in return.

____:popcorn:____

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Morphie, did you send Kristy a link to this thread so that she can respond?

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No. Please feel free.

Scenario, Robin. A person you gave a snake to, to be nice to them: Turns out you gave them the wrong one. Happens to be your very first snake ever, one that you really really cared for and was your ultimate treasure. Maybe it's just a normal, but it was sentimentally very special to you.

You write to that person: Hi, i accidentally put my snakes in the wrong drawer and you got my special one. Would you be willing to swap me?

They write back: no. Sorry, you should have thought about that.

Would you not feel slighted? Hurt? Like people should perhaps be warned not to extend special favors to this person, so that no one else has to feel as awful as you do?

I think a lot of people are being a little harsh on Morphie. She used the forum appropriately to air out something she is hurt about. She has every right to feel hurt. Unfortunately, a lot of the time, people suck. I'm a bit jaded so I generally believe that in business people are out to screw you and I hope in the end I am proven wrong. I do agree though that just because you do something for someone doesn't mean the good deed needs to be reciprocated. Be wary of people who continually nickel and dime you. Nothing will ever be enough for them and in the end you may end up feeling taken.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

Why are all you admin trying to put her down so much?

If this were all of YOU in this situation.....you would be pulling the same cards.

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So admins and mods are not members capable of giving their opinion on a situation anymore……………….well excuse me.

My opinion is the same whether I am a member or on the staff and would be exactly the same if posted on another forum.

As for being in the same situation, once a transaction is completed a transaction is completed, if I sell a female and later found out she is gravid I would not expect to get anything from that clutch.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

No. Please feel free.

Scenario, Robin. A person you gave a snake to, to be nice to them: Turns out you gave them the wrong one. Happens to be your very first snake ever, one that you really really cared for and was your ultimate treasure. Maybe it's just a normal, but it was sentimentally very special to you.

You write to that person: Hi, i accidentally put my snakes in the wrong drawer and you got my special one. Would you be willing to swap me?

They write back: no. Sorry, you should have thought about that.

Would you not feel slighted? Hurt? Like people should perhaps be warned not to extend special favors to this person, so that no one else has to feel as awful as you do?

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Difference. the animal was a gift and not a purchase by the other person.

Had she refused to give back the free-bees Ok sure I could see getting hurt.. But you made a mistake in not verifying the gravid state of the animal you SOLD. As a result the buyer got a surprise clutch.

Does it hurt sure it blows!!! Does it warrant coming here and claiming their a slimy person for not giving you something you didn't even know existed.. No.

I bet you a lawyer out there somewhere would stipulate that you sold her the snake, not the sperm that fertilized the eggs, or even the eggs themselves. I could totally see that on Judge Joe Brown someday. :8:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I bet you a lawyer out there somewhere would stipulate that you sold her the snake, not the sperm that fertilized the eggs, or even the eggs themselves. I could totally see that on Judge Joe Brown someday. :8:

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Have fun with that :gj:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I think a lot of people are being a little harsh on Morphie. She used the forum appropriately to air out something she is hurt about. She has every right to feel hurt. Unfortunately, a lot of the time, people suck. I'm a bit jaded so I generally believe that in business people are out to screw you and I hope in the end I am proven wrong. I do agree though that just because you do something for someone doesn't mean the good deed needs to be reciprocated. Be wary of people who continually nickel and dime you. Nothing will ever be enough for them and in the end you may end up feeling taken.

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this is what i think morphie is trying to say. Its in the business forum and this is how she does business.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

No. Please feel free.

Scenario, Robin. A person you gave a snake to, to be nice to them: Turns out you gave them the wrong one. Happens to be your very first snake ever, one that you really really cared for and was your ultimate treasure. Maybe it's just a normal, but it was sentimentally very special to you.

You write to that person: Hi, i accidentally put my snakes in the wrong drawer and you got my special one. Would you be willing to swap me?

They write back: no. Sorry, you should have thought about that.

Would you not feel slighted? Hurt? Like people should perhaps be warned not to extend special favors to this person, so that no one else has to feel as awful as you do?

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Yes, I would be very hurt. No, I wouldn't feel that I needed to warn people about the person.

And yes, I gave a female to a person instead of a male locally last year.

I called them up as soon as I got home, to tell them of the mistake (the snakes were in the baby rack next to each other). They chose to keep the female that I had intended to hold back and were not willing to switch with me. So, it has happened to me. I moved on. It didn't stop me from helping others at a later time.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

an act of kindness is an act of kindness which means nothing should be expected in return.

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This is an idealized theory. Fact of the matter is that altruism comes from a subconscious expectation of reciprocation. It evolved because people who stick together are generally more successful at life than people who betray each other. When you are nice to someone, you are saying "i accept you into my social circle, and I will offer you the benefits of friendship." Whether or not you care to admit it, this is an investment. "If I am nice to people, then they will be nice to me".

Otherwise, everyone would just eat everyone else's babies. :8:

Seriously though when someone breaks the cycle, everyone who has invested in them in the past feels slighted, and are less likely to extend the hand of friendship again in the future (documented studies show this also occurs in squirrel communities).

You may not expect something right then, but you do expect your kindness to be remembered, and it is offensive when it is not.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Difference. the animal was a gift and not a purchase by the other person.

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I don't think that matters, personally. I don't feel I would be right in asking her to give me that 10 bucks she was missing for the stat, or to pay me for the water bottles.

I gave that stuff away because it mattered to her more than it did to me at the time, and I'm a nice person like that.

What's different about the egg is it's non-reproducible (she has the only one), and I am asking for a favor in much the same way she asked several of me (and succeeded at getting) because the egg, if hatched, would be more sentimentally important to me than to her, and to her, *that* does not matter (when something as stupid as a few dollars was enough to make me feel like she deserved my altruism not even a month ago - I can't even imagine ending up with the only progeny of someone's cherished and deceased snake and not giving them any means by which to recover it if they told me it was a big deal to them).

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Originally Posted by Morphie

I don't think that matters, personally. I don't feel I would be right in asking her to give me that 10 bucks she was missing for the stat, or to pay me for the water bottles.

I gave that stuff away because it mattered to her more than it did to me at the time, and I'm a nice person like that.

What's different about the egg is it's non-reproducible (she has the only one), and I am asking for a favor in much the same way she asked several of me (and succeeded at getting) because the egg, if hatched, would be more sentimentally important to me than to her, and to her, *that* does not matter (when something as stupid as a few dollars was enough to make me feel like she deserved my altruism not even a month ago - I can't even imagine ending up with the only progeny of someone's cherished and deceased snake and not giving them any means by which to recover it if they told me it was a big deal to them).

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It does matter because. When you took money for the snake you sold every part of it from head to tail thats what she was paying for. She got what she was paying for and you got the money for what you were selling. You just didn't know what you were selling. Thats not her fault or her responsibility to make right.

I can see your point but you have to understand lets say its a fire..Are you going to give her a fire when you hatch them as repayment for giving up that baby?

Its tough when your so attached but please understand you got rid of the animal. And now once you found out theres more to it than you once though your asking for the offspring. It's unheard of. I just don't understand if there was even a possibility that the snake was gravid why sell it?!?!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I just don't understand if there was even a possibility that the snake was gravid why sell it?!?!

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It was stupid. I've been liquidating my entire collection because we're moving somewhere 1/3 as big. I didn't want to sell off everything, but I've been convinced to do it by my partner. The place is really tiny.

It has been incredibly painful, but my heart was just crushed when I found my darling Kayoubi belly-up, and wasn't sure I needed to keep going and trying. I am keeping a mojave that nearly died on me (he survived because i decided to break down and do assist feeding and got him going again) and my darling spider girl because she's such an adorable odd-ball. I was hoping against hope that someone had taken with the fire, but they were all acting odd and not taking food, but there was no indication of swelling or any of that stuff either, so the possibility seemed remote.

Hope (the snake she bought) is a big, beautiful girl. Kris bought two of my favorites that day, and I cried when she left. I had since mostly gotten over it, but then she writes to tell me she has my beloved Kayoubi's only possibly-good egg...