My First Project... a little understanding.

So starting this season I've decided to try and lay the groundwork for my first "Project". In my previous post I mentioned I kept balls for about 8 years and I've always had a thing for albinos and Pied. The more time that I spent looking around the more seduced I found myself becoming with other morphs. After doing some thinking and (dollar counting) I've decided that I'm gonna stick to my original Idea and stay with albino and pied. I plan on going to Northern Berks on the first and see what I can find there and looking around on line. I plan on picking up a albino and if at all posible a pair of pied hets.

My "Goal" would be an ALBINO PIED down the road but before I go out and start spending I want to make sure I understand the "Theory" behind
what I'm taking on.


If I started with a Albino and a pair of Pied Hets and I pred the hets I'd have a 25% shot @ getting a Pied and 50% pied hets and 25% normal...

Now If I got lucky and got the pied...and bred a pied does to an albino I would get 50% het Pied 50% het albino. Correct so far?


No let me pretend that by some divine intervention I got it right and then bred the het pied to an albino and a pied to an albino het (this is where things get a little murkey for me) would the previous odds hold for me getting a double het?

as in pied x albino het = 25% of getting a double Het?
or albino x pied het + 25% of getting a double het?

and then if I go het pied/het Albino x het pied/ het Albino = 25% chance of albino Pied????

I pretty sure I'm screwing this up somewhere but I'm not sure. Before I go out and start spending I want to make sure I understand what I'm up against.

I'm not even 100% sure that thats how you get to albino pied. I'd be greatful to anyone who can point me in the right direction or somthing I can read to .

Thanks

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Now If I got lucky and got the pied...and bred a pied does to an albino I would get 50% het Pied 50% het albino. Correct so far?

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Pied X Albino = DH Albino Pieds (Normal looking offspring double het Albino Pied)

Breed your DH together and you will get 1/16 chance to produce an Albino Pied

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as in pied x albino het = 25% of getting a double Het?
or albino x pied het + 25% of getting a double het?

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pied x het albino het = 100% Het pied that are 50% possible het albino

albino x het pied = 100% Het Albino that are 50% possible Het pied

Many thanks I was sure I wasn't getting it right.... can you explain the one in sixteen odds?

I get the odds at the other stages but I feel like I missing the obvious when it comes to the oddds of the albino pied.

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Originally Posted by PaseQB

Many thanks I was sure I wasn't getting it right.... can you explain the one in sixteen odds?

I get the odds at the other stages but I feel like I missing the obvious when it comes to the oddds of the albino pied.

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The odds of breeding DH Albino Pied X DH Albino Pied get a little tricky but it would go like this

Double Het Albino Pied 25%
Albino Het Pied 12.5%
Pied Het Albino 12.5%
Albino Pied 6.25%
Het Albino 12.5%
Het Pied 12.5%
Albino 6.25%
Pied 6.25%
Normal 6.25%

I think I get it... with two recessives that could present visual the odds reduced by the number of variables

Here is what I would do if I where starting today (I've already started with possible hets some time ago). This all assumes that you (like me) can't afford a female double het much less an albino and pied pair.

Buy a 100% double het albino pied male (very reasonable now) and as many het albino and het pied females as you can afford. Well, at least one of each. But a few more improves your chances of getting one up to breeding weight quicker (assuming you have enough feeders). But if you only have one het pied female and she turns out to be a poor eater might take a while. Also, the more females in general the more eggs and the more eggs the better your chances of hitting the 1 in 4 chance per egg of being either albino (from a het albino female) or pied (from a het pied female). In theory, you could have both albinos and pieds in two years. In practice don't count on getting eggs from a female in 18 months and hitting the odds the first time.

Depending on what you produce and when is where the interesting choices come in. Do you breed any daughter albino possible het pieds or daughter pied possible het albino back to dad since you know he carries both genes and you only want the question mark on the mom's side? Maybe at least you buy an unrelated double het male to avoid inbreeding. But I'd be tempted to use any keeper albino possible het piebald male or piebald possible het albino male to the females of the other morph. At least then the worst you can produce is 100% double hets after minimum of 4 years and you are finally at the start (lol). But if your possible hets hit on both sides (i.e. if your albino male that you produced is also het piebald and your piebald female is also het albino, or vice versa) you could produce a clutch of 25% chance albino piebalds and only 25% chance double hets with the remaining 50% chance visible morphs.

On second thought, why the heck would you be listening to me, I spent the last 15 years just to produce my first albino and I still haven't produced a pied yet. lol

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Originally Posted by PaseQB

I think I get it... with two recessives that could present visual the odds reduced by the number of variables

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The odds of producing normals go down too. Some people freak out about the long odds of producing the ultimate combo and forget this part. For example, if you had a pair of quadruple hets (lets say someone breeds an axanthic piebald to an albino stripe) then sure, your odds of producing the snow stripe piebald is only 1 in 256 per egg. But your odds of producing a complete normal (not het for anything) are also 1 in 256. Even your odds of producing normal looking animals go down to 81/256 (less than 1 in 3). So rather than only expecting about 1 /4 of your clutch to me morphs as when breeding single hets with quadruple hets you now expect over 2/3rds of your clutch to be at least one visible morphs and you could breed the pair for the rest of your life and still perhaps not see all possible combinations.

another thought would be to look for a double het and then get a visual pied or albino so you can make something visual on your first pairing.

guess its all about how much you want to spend, the easist way would be to buy a 1.1 albino pied and then their offspring would be 100% albino pieds :-)

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

The odds of producing normals go down too. Some people freak out about the long odds of producing the ultimate combo and forget this part. For example, if you had a pair of quadruple hets (lets say someone breeds an axanthic piebald to an albino stripe) then sure, your odds of producing the snow stripe piebald is only 1 in 256 per egg. But your odds of producing a complete normal (not het for anything) are also 1 in 256. Even your odds of producing normal looking animals go down to 81/256 (less than 1 in 3). So rather than only expecting about 1 /4 of your clutch to me morphs as when breeding single hets with quadruple hets you now expect over 2/3rds of your clutch to be at least one visible morphs and you could breed the pair for the rest of your life and still perhaps not see all possible combinations.

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Thanks for your input... It helps a lot in terms of helping me to understand the scope of what I'd like to do and some of the avenues I can take.

Logistically I understand that the odds are a little long but I'm not really trying to make a buck its just somthing I'd like to try accomplish. I've always wanted to breed my own morph. Hopefully it will catch my son's interest and we can do it together.

The longest odds are if you don't try! Some are so worried about the chance of failure they don't give themselves the possibility to succeed.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

The longest odds are if you don't try! Some are so worried about the chance of failure they don't give themselves the possibility to succeed.

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Yea I figure I may wind up with some albino's or pieds that I can trade and maybe slowly work my way to that albino pied... Even If I don't in the long run somthing good can still come out of it if nothing else but being able to own two of my favorite morph.

Was trying to read all the post but I am on my iPhone gets hard to read after while so I'll check back later but hears my peice...

I read double het males are easy to come b. And agree but imma just go off you plans...

If u do decide to get all three at the same time get the albino as a female so u have less time to wait growing up ur pied hoping it's a male. Plus people will be willing to trade a female hatcheling for a male maybe a year older. With that u could be producing ur double gets the next year keep 1 male and atleast 2 females but the more females the better ur chances then u'll be waiting for ur females to be up to weight the male won't take but 2 years... Then it's 1/16 pray to the odd gods. Let's call it a 6 year project minus how many years ur het piers have on them an ur luck with the odds.

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Originally Posted by aff19802

Was trying to read all the post but I am on my iPhone gets hard to read after while so I'll check back later but hears my peice...

I read double het males are easy to come b. And agree but imma just go off you plans...

If u do decide to get all three at the same time get the albino as a female so u have less time to wait growing up ur pied hoping it's a male. Plus people will be willing to trade a female hatcheling for a male maybe a year older. With that u could be producing ur double gets the next year keep 1 male and atleast 2 females but the more females the better ur chances then u'll be waiting for ur females to be up to weight the male won't take but 2 years... Then it's 1/16 pray to the odd gods. Let's call it a 6 year project minus how many years ur het piers have on them an ur luck with the odds.

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I thought that deciding what kind of project I wanted to do was going to be the hard part but actually figuring out my initial purchases is driving me crazy. I'm going to see what a double het will cost me but I'm pretty sure my wallet is going to be the deciding factor... I had guessed I was looking @ about five years on the optomistic side of things.

What would you (collective you) do in my shoes?

I have a male 100% double het albino pied who could breed fairly soon. I have an adult breeder male pied and an adult breeder male albino. I have an adult het albino female, and I have an 08 pied female and an 08 het pied female. What would the quickest way for me to get albino pieds?

I know I should buy a double het female, but I can't find one available, spare one $5000 proven female, and that's too much!

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

another thought would be to look for a double het and then get a visual pied or albino so you can make something visual on your first pairing.

guess its all about how much you want to spend, the easist way would be to buy a 1.1 albino pied and then their offspring would be 100% albino pieds :-)

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This is what I would do.

If I were you, I would purchase a 1. Pied and a .1 Albino.

You can get an 08' 1. Pied for $1200.-$2k. and an 07' .1 Albino for $800.-$1200. and breed them together. Hold back all of your females for the next two seasons.

By that time you will probably be able to purchase an unrelated 1. Albino Pied for a reasonable price.

Breed him to all of the DH Albino/Pieds that you held back and you have yourself an Albino Pied project.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

If I were you, I would purchase a 1. Pied and a .1 Albino.

You can get an 08' 1. Pied for $1200.-$2k. and an 07' .1 Albino for $800.-$1200. and breed them together. Hold back all of your females for the next two seasons.

By that time you will probably be able to purchase an unrelated 1. Albino Pied for a reasonable price.

Breed him to all of the DH Albino/Pieds that you held back and you have yourself an Albino Pied project.

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Well, of course I'd like the Albino pied sooner than later but at the same time I'm not expecting "Instant Albino Pied". Most of the Pieds I've liked have been over 1200 and right now I don't have two plus thousand to kick out to get started. I think if I'm lucky I can work out on visual (albino) and some variety of het this summer but this is going to be a kinda "build as I go" project.

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Originally Posted by PaseQB

Well, of course I'd like the Albino pied sooner than later but at the same time I'm not expecting "Instant Albino Pied". Most of the Pieds I've liked have been over 1200 and right now I don't have two plus thousand to kick out to get started. I think if I'm lucky I can work out on visual (albino) and some variety of het this summer but this is going to be a kinda "build as I go" project.

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in the classifieds right now someone has 4 DH males for 150 each just so you know.

tho i still think it be better to have the double het be a female so you can breed back her offspring and see if they prove out.

tho it might not be a bad idea to have a DH male. so many ways to go about this, guess it just depends what you get. mayb just get a DH male and as many DH females as you can afford? i donno what would be the most cost effective way vs chance of producing them.

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Originally Posted by TheOtherLeadingBrand

What would you (collective you) do in my shoes?

I have a male 100% double het albino pied who could breed fairly soon. I have an adult breeder male pied and an adult breeder male albino. I have an adult het albino female, and I have an 08 pied female and an 08 het pied female. What would the quickest way for me to get albino pieds?

I know I should buy a double het female, but I can't find one available, spare one $5000 proven female, and that's too much!

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I'd breed the double het male to the het albino female next year and hold back any albino possible het pied females and any possible double hets with the pied belly marker. Then as soon as possible breed the double het male (or maybe pick up an unrelated one for $150) to the het pied girl (and/or the pied if she grows as quick). If you get a male pied possible het albino then you have to decide if you want to use him against the possible double het (or hopefully albino possible het pied) girls out of your adult het albino girl or if you want to go with the more sure double het male. The advantage of using a pied possible het albino male would be the chance to cut the odds as low as 1 in 4 on albino pied best case and also worst case everything you produce after all that is double het. But using the double het male at least you know your male wouldn't be preventing any chance of albino pied. Absolute best case at least 2012 and of course more likely longer, maybe much longer.

here is a double het selling now...

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=96578