Albino pricing

How much do you think the price of albinos will go down in the next couple of years?

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Originally Posted by nivek5225

How much do you think the price of albinos will go down in the next couple of years?

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I hope that they are already at rock bottom. There's no reason for a recessive morph to be any less than $500.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I hope that they are already at rock bottom. There's no reason for a recessive morph to be any less than $500.

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I agree with Robin... Though I don't think that will be the case, there are many animals being sold way under value in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I hope that they are already at rock bottom. There's no reason for a recessive morph to be any less than $500.

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QFT. People clearly don't have problems moving them at $500-$600, why go lower? In fact I don't understand why they're only $500-$600 because they sold out when they were $800-$1000.

I paid 525 for my female and 300 for my male

This is the only industry that the more popular the item the cheaper it is.

I can tell you this I pay top dollar of great looking animals and I breed to produce great looking animals.
I don't see my prices going lower than 600.00 for a male ever.

I may have to keep every one of them but I can think of loads of combos to produce with them. :D

Thanks everyone for the replies! :D

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

This is the only industry that the more popular the item the cheaper it is.

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This industry follows the same adoption curve as any other - a graph of the rate of adoption and prevalence of a particular morph is indistinguishable from that of Televisions, DVD players, or hybrid cars.

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

This industry follows the same adoption curve as any other - a graph of the rate of adoption and prevalence of a particular morph is indistinguishable from that of Televisions, DVD players, or hybrid cars.

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Not True. All the items you mentioned are manufactured goods. They become cheaper because they gradually become cheaper to make. Animals do not necessarily apply to this. Sure it may become cheaper to feed and house the animals, but not enough to encourage a 50% price drop.

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

This industry follows the same adoption curve as any other - a graph of the rate of adoption and prevalence of a particular morph is indistinguishable from that of Televisions, DVD players, or hybrid cars.

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And yet every year the new models of hybrid cars don't get any cheaper, a 2009 house is more expensive than a 1975 house. Things in this world get cheaper the less desirable they are not the more desirable. I mean the more desirable gas got the higher the price got, the more people desire a given brand of cloths the higher the price gets to be.

Yes everyday items that have become obsolete and no longer have a market do drop in price.

Look at diamonds you walk in to any Jeweler's and they will be wall to wall diamonds, guess what if they are selling .5ct diamond bracelets as fast as they can get them do you think next year their going to drop the price? Nope they'll sell them for the same this year as they did last.

There are some things that you see the new models being cheaper like computers.

Just my two cents.. Not sure why a breeder would say hey I sold 50 albino last year for 600.00. I this year I know what I'll do...I'll sell them for cheaper..I mean I like making less money every year for the same product..Sounds like great smart business to me.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

They become cheaper because they gradually become cheaper to make. Animals do not necessarily apply to this.

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I disagree - it's much cheaper to produce albinos now than it was ten or even five years ago because you can get a pair of animals capable of producing 100% albino offspring for around a grand.

In marketing terms, albinos are in the late adoption stage (like dvd players and televisions), meaning that the supply can easily outstrip demand because they're cheap to produce, which drives their overall price down.

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

I disagree - it's much cheaper to produce albinos now than it was ten or even five years ago because you can get a pair of animals capable of producing 100% albino offspring for around a grand.

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Who does it get cheaper for ???? I mean if I paid 1500 for my albino then the cost to produce them doesn't drop for me it cost me the same in 2009 as it did in 2008, My rat food stays the same, my power bill doesn't get cheaper, vermiculite doesn't get cheaper, so how is it cheaper to produce albinos this year than last. So why do I want to lower my prices if it doesn't get cheaper for me to produce them.

The whole ball of wax is that if breeder decided this season to not drop prices on any more morphs..period end of story. Then the cost to produce albinos for those breeders does what. It doesn't get cheaper it stays the same.

Your overhead doesn't go down with the price of the product..The price of the product drops with the cost of overhead thats how business work.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

And yet every year the new models of hybrid cars don't get any cheaper, a 2009 house is more expensive than a 1975 house.

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First, hybrid cars are still in early adoption, which means that the technology is maturing while the price of production is falling - they're just on an earlier part of the curve. Second, once you take the new taxes, technology and inflation out of the picture, a 2009 house itself is not actually more expensive than it's 1975 counterpart.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Things in this world get cheaper the less desirable they are not the more desirable.

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Things get cheaper for one of two reasons - decreased demand or an increase in supply. Supply increases with popularity, especially as production techniques mature, which is why you can purchase television sets for $200, DVD players for $30, and visual Albinos males for $300.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I mean the more desirable gas got the higher the price got, the more people desire a given brand of cloths the higher the price gets to be.

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That's actually not true at all - gas wasn't more desirable, it was less available, and desire isn't demand - demand is the number of people willing to purchase a good or service at a particular price point, not just aspire to being able to purchase. Sure, Calvin Klein jeans may be more desirable, but there is no debating that Lee Jeans, as sold at Wal-Mart everywhere, are more popular and cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Not sure why a breeder would say hey I sold 50 albino last year for 600.00. I this year I know what I'll do...I'll sell them for cheaper..I mean I like making less money every year for the same product.

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That's actually very simple - they understand that supply of that particular strain of animal can easily triple after the second year. Since the animals they're offering are ultimately indistinguishable from the rest of the supply, they have to continue to meet market rates for their animals, or eat the cost of retaining them.

Im sorry to say it but i think he's right. i dont have a albino but need a female. I was told by someone that at the Daytona breeder expo thay should be about 300-350..for 09 offspring.. i dont think it will be true but if it is...Mike from Ballroom reptiles sead he was going to buy all of them on friday and send them to europe...i would like to pay 350 for an 09 albino but we will see....

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Who does it get cheaper for ????

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Anyone who is acquiring visual stock for breeding. If you bought two visuals at 1500 each, and produced six visual offspring, they cost you 500 each in initial stock to produce. If I bought a pair of visuals at 1000, and produce six visual offspring, my per-unit cost is only around $165.

Now consider the cost of producing visual albinos fifteen years ago when a single visual would have run you 8k or so, and you had to produce multiple generations of hets and possible hets to produce those visual animals.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

if breeder decided this season to not drop prices on any more morphs..period end of story. Then the cost to produce albinos for those breeders does what. It doesn't get cheaper it stays the same.

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It's not "end of story", as it would become more expensive as the overhead (space, food, power) of maintaining unsold animals rose.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Your overhead doesn't go down with the price of the product.

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It does when the primary "overhead" cost is the price of the breeding stock.

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

I disagree - it's much cheaper to produce albinos now than it was ten or even five years ago because you can get a pair of animals capable of producing 100% albino offspring for around a grand.

In marketing terms, albinos are in the late adoption stage (like dvd players and televisions), meaning that the supply can easily outstrip demand because they're cheap to produce, which drives their overall price down.

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You don't buy a DVD Player to make another DVD Player. The cost of raising and taking care of the animal is no different. Pure Bred Dogs don't get cheaper year to year, more people may be breeding them but they don't get cheaper. Greater volume of animals being produced doesn't mean they should be cheaper. It's Supply and Demand, the higher the demand the higher the cost. The lower the demand the lower the cost. If you sell out of all your animals you're not going to lower your price just because.

People lower their prices just because they think the animal won't sell for the price they ask for it. We're destroying our own market. The sooner people realize that snakes are not a get rich quick scheme, the better.

Everyone also seems to forget what it cost to raise the animal to breedable size in the first place. It costs a hell of a lot more to raise up a Female Albino to breeding size than it does a Boy.

I'll be damned if I sell an albino for only twice the amount of a normal come 3 years from now.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

Pure Bred Dogs don't get cheaper year to year, more people may be breeding them but they don't get cheaper.

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This is actually a great point, but not one that supports your argument. The price of pure-breed dogs is only stabilized for those that have certification - those lacking certification can often be picked up in front of your local k-mart, pound, or from a rescue operation for very little or no money.

That said, I've been a proponent for years of a certifying body with published standards (al la AKC) for morphs as a stabilizing force in the industry.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

It's Supply and Demand, the higher the demand the higher the cost. The lower the demand the lower the cost.

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Yes, but you're missing the crucial point, which is that's only true if supply is stable - which it's not by any stretch of the imagination.

Think about it - you buy a pair visual morphs for $3000 (1500 ea) which cost $100 per year to maintain (food, water, shelter, heat). When the first clutch of 6 visual offspring pops out in two years, you now have 8 snakes that have cost you $3200 total (400 ea). The next year, you pop out another clutch of 6, and now have 14 snakes for a total investment of $3600 (258 ea)

The next year is the biggie though, because say you hit 50/50 on your m/f ratio in year two - you now have four females ready to go. Year four sees an equal number of clutches, so you've got 38 snakes for a total investment of $4300 (114 ea).

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Originally Posted by AaronP

People lower their prices just because they think the animal won't sell for the price they ask for it.

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People lower their prices because they have to undercut the people who make their livings on these animals, and those are the people who know for a fact their supply has outpaced the demand. Watch who lowers their prices first - for example the first Fire I was offered for under a grand was from Bob Clark who had an entire table full of them marked quite a bit higher.

So the over all question stand if they will sell for 600.00 why lower the price??? I think the answer is..

"Because thats what people expect"

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Who does it get cheaper for ???? I mean if I paid 1500 for my albino then the cost to produce them doesn't drop for me it cost me the same in 2009 as it did in 2008, My rat food stays the same, my power bill doesn't get cheaper, vermiculite doesn't get cheaper, so how is it cheaper to produce albinos this year than last. So why do I want to lower my prices if it doesn't get cheaper for me to produce them.

The whole ball of wax is that if breeder decided this season to not drop prices on any more morphs..period end of story. Then the cost to produce albinos for those breeders does what. It doesn't get cheaper it stays the same.

Your overhead doesn't go down with the price of the product..The price of the product drops with the cost of overhead thats how business work.

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This is why I got out of breeding bearded dragons. The overhead is not getting any cheaper and the price plumets because the market is SO flooded with them every year because of the amount of eggs they lay.

I agree why drop the price if you can sell them at the cirrent price.

i believe that soon, the breeding part of the hobby may start going in a different direction. People who want quality breeding stock dont want grade D pastels. They want top quality, stunning animals and are willing to pay more than (2x the price of a normal, for example) for the animal they want. I have talked to MANY people who share this school of thought.

This is where I plan on going with my (extremely small) hobby breeding plans in the future, QUALITY and stunning morph examples. I don't want to produce low grade animals. I want to produce animals that I feel are stunning examples of a morph through selective breeding. No running a browned out male pastel through 3-5 dark normal females.

I picked out all my animals based on their looks (and personalities if i could handle them before purchasing). My first normal, a sizable female now has gotten so much lighter as she has aged. She may end up being a dinker for me.

If people continue producing quality morphs, people will want to spend more money to get the animals they want. Sure you can get a brown pastel for 70, but if you want a NICE bright yellow pastel you're going to shell out more for it than what petco charges for a CH import.

Once i produce my first albinos i wouldn't charge more than 600 and no less than 500.

Since im working my way to albino spiders then ill need some guidance on prices cause i cant find prices for them anywhere. I'd say 1000-1500 is my guess

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

And yet every year the new models of hybrid cars don't get any cheaper, a 2009 house is more expensive than a 1975 house. Things in this world get cheaper the less desirable they are not the more desirable. I mean the more desirable gas got the higher the price got, the more people desire a given brand of cloths the higher the price gets to be.

Yes everyday items that have become obsolete and no longer have a market do drop in price.

Look at diamonds you walk in to any Jeweler's and they will be wall to wall diamonds, guess what if they are selling .5ct diamond bracelets as fast as they can get them do you think next year their going to drop the price? Nope they'll sell them for the same this year as they did last.

There are some things that you see the new models being cheaper like computers.

Just my two cents.. Not sure why a breeder would say hey I sold 50 albino last year for 600.00. I this year I know what I'll do...I'll sell them for cheaper..I mean I like making less money every year for the same product..Sounds like great smart business to me.

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I totally agree on the Quality of the Animal. I have seen some pretty ugly browned out small pastels that I would never buy.

As for Albino Spiders I have seen them for 1,500-2,500 I believe.

Golden Retrievers cost more every year- but that's because more people now seek out reputable breeders and reputable breeders have more costs (OFA hips, elbows, hearts, thyroids, and CERF eyes, which get more costly every year. Also showing expenses rise with gas prices, etc). Good luck finding a nice Golden from parents with ALL the health tests I just named, and championships, for several generations, for less than $1500. Much, much more in some regions...

They cost that much because people will pay that much- even a horribly bred Golden, with no clearances, and a total hodge podge pedigree of AKC registered but poor quality dogs, with no titles or anything (ie, the newspaper classified AKC Golden puppies) cost $600 plus where I live. You can easily pay $2000 for a nice Golden here from a reputable breeder. That is double the cost a decade ago. More people now know that they should never buy a dog from the paper or from a petstore- more people are seeking out show breeders who do clearances.

With the snakes, the supply increases and the demand is steady. The Ball obsession is probably leveling out... I have just introduced two new people though ;)

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

i believe that soon, the breeding part of the hobby may start going in a different direction. People who want quality breeding stock dont want grade D pastels. They want top quality, stunning animals and are willing to pay more than (2x the price of a normal, for example) for the animal they want. I have talked to MANY people who share this school of thought.

This is where I plan on going with my (extremely small) hobby breeding plans in the future, QUALITY and stunning morph examples. I don't want to produce low grade animals. I want to produce animals that I feel are stunning examples of a morph through selective breeding. No running a browned out male pastel through 3-5 dark normal females.

I picked out all my animals based on their looks (and personalities if i could handle them before purchasing). My first normal, a sizable female now has gotten so much lighter as she has aged. She may end up being a dinker for me.

If people continue producing quality morphs, people will want to spend more money to get the animals they want. Sure you can get a brown pastel for 70, but if you want a NICE bright yellow pastel you're going to shell out more for it than what petco charges for a CH import.

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First off, I think this is totally accurate, especially for some morphs, like the pastel. I think that those people producing top quality morphs will continue to be profitable in the long run.

In the case of recessive morphs, such as a piebald, they will hold there price longer than say the pastel has, for obvious reasons (harder to produce). But, its simple supply demand, as more and more casual breeders get into the industry, the supply will increase, and unless there is anything breeders can do to increase the demand, at a faster rate, the price is going to drop. The excess profits attracts new entrants into the markets, increasing supply further, until the point to where profits have been driven to 0 (excess profits at least). At this point we will be in equilibrium, and the price will hold. Who knows what that equilibrium price is. The way top quality breeders are attempting to produce profits is through new morphs. What they want is monopolistic competition. If they have a distinguishable product, that they can convince is similar, but higher quality, they will be able to charge that premium and afford themselves excess profits. However, casuals will be purchasing these, and once again more entrants into the market, driving price down in the long run. Essentially it becomes a game of short run versus long run. In the short run breeders will make profits on new morphs, but in the long run, they will be driven away. Unless we can find some sort of collusionary tactics, prices will continue to move downward. Unfortunately, if everyone colludes together to keep prices high, there will be opportunistic people who will undercut. It stinks, but it is the nature of people.

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Originally Posted by BJJPython

First off, I think this is totally accurate, especially for some morphs, like the pastel. I think that those people producing top quality morphs will continue to be profitable in the long run.

In the case of recessive morphs, such as a piebald, they will hold there price longer than say the pastel has, for obvious reasons (harder to produce). But, its simple supply demand, as more and more casual breeders get into the industry, the supply will increase, and unless there is anything breeders can do to increase the demand, at a faster rate, the price is going to drop. The excess profits attracts new entrants into the markets, increasing supply further, until the point to where profits have been driven to 0 (excess profits at least). At this point we will be in equilibrium, and the price will hold. Who knows what that equilibrium price is. The way top quality breeders are attempting to produce profits is through new morphs. What they want is monopolistic competition. If they have a distinguishable product, that they can convince is similar, but higher quality, they will be able to charge that premium and afford themselves excess profits. However, casuals will be purchasing these, and once again more entrants into the market, driving price down in the long run. Essentially it becomes a game of short run versus long run. In the short run breeders will make profits on new morphs, but in the long run, they will be driven away. Unless we can find some sort of collusionary tactics, prices will continue to move downward. Unfortunately, if everyone colludes together to keep prices high, there will be opportunistic people who will undercut. It stinks, but it is the nature of people.

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Thank you, i was totally afraid I went off on a tangent with this (as i sometimes do).

the "fly by night" breeders will always come and go. They're in every hobby; model stuffs, dog breeding, machine repairs, etc. Once someone figures out what they're up to then they go poof.

Perhaps this needs to begin with the buyers. I know that with my animals, i have definately hopped on a deal or two, but I try not to haggle with sellers over their listing price (maybe with the odd $25 on a multi-hundred dollar morph). I wont say stop looking for the deal of the century, but maybe using KS as our price guide is hurting us (and this has been discussed at length in another thread so i wont go any farther into it here).

I think i had another point here and i completely lost it.. dang nabbit.

I'm not an econ expert.

I think that unless something happens, prices will continue to drop for quite a bit.

Ball pythons are getting (slightly) easier to produce, as we learn more and more about keeping them in captivity. But the more important factor is that there are more and more people breeding ball pythons, such as albinos. The supply increases so much, and consequently the price drops.

I agree with cinderbird. People will pay a lot more for good quality bp, and crappy ones will go cheap but good quality should stay at a steady price. I got my 09 pastel male a while ago for 150 dollars. I know you can get pastels for cheaper, but I decided to get one that's good quality.

prices have been under 500 for albinos i could of bought 4 nice ones for 400$ each last weekend

ok it goes like this...

breeder A : $1000
breeder B : i need to get rid of these things $950
basement breeder : i can't sell these unless i under cut them $800
now people think their only worth 800

next year
breeder A: crap i can't sell these now, $800
breeder B : $750
basement breeder : under cut $650
now their only 650

for prices to stop dropping, it would take everyone to agree on a price and stick to it. which is a dream. i notice most "big breeders" are in the same price range, then i check the classifieds here, and everyones under cutting them. which is what they have to do to sell them. its a unstopable engine.

I purchased my male for 500 last year I think my buddy said he seen them at the show for like 400 at a couple vendors while he was looking. (I rather have gone but mom came first since she was inthe hostipal for heart issues. That why he picked up the one snake for me and made arrangements for the second on my behalf. ( now if he could find me a place I could afford it rock ):rolleye2: