Vpi-nerd x tsk x bhb

3 Caramel lines combined hatchling

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k9...KyleSteven.jpg

Great looking snake :salute:

Wow, so much blushing, what a beauty!!!

Awesome little snake! Did you guys see Vin Russos caramel post on k-snake? If I followed it correctly yours is a combo of the same line but from different sources, if that makes sense. It looks like he actually combined two different forms of caramels, and it looks like a lav albino almost.

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Originally Posted by Envied Reptiles

Awesome little snake! Did you guys see Vin Russos caramel post on k-snake? If I followed it correctly yours is a combo of the same line but from different sources, if that makes sense. It looks like he actually combined two different forms of caramels, and it looks like a lav albino almost.

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I saw the post on KS. AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he bred two different Bell lines and produced a new Caramel Albino combo that is spectacular! :bow: it should continue to get better looking as it ages, WOW. that is why Caramels are so great, they make amazing combos and as they age they look better. his new combo is just beautiful. :gj:

my combo on this thread is 3 of the established lines of Caramels combined to enhance them through outbreeding lines. this hatchling is from 3 "different" established lines combined.

Nice looking little snake!

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Originally Posted by RoyalVariations

I saw the post on KS. AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he bred two different Bell lines and produced a new Caramel Albino combo that is spectacular! :bow: it should continue to get better looking as it ages, WOW. that is why Caramels are so great, they make amazing combos and as they age they look better. his new combo is just beautiful. :gj:

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From my understanding, it wasn't two different Bell lines of caramel albino. It was the ultramel/Crider line that's just starting to make it's way into collections bred with the standard caramel albino that everyone has.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

From my understanding, it wasn't two different Bell lines of caramel albino. It was the ultramel/Crider line that's just starting to make it's way into collections bred with the standard caramel albino that everyone has.

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that is true. I guess the ultramel/Crider does not replace the established Caramel Albino after all. the Caramel Albino makes great combos and they look better with age. combined with the ultramel/Crider or which ever line of african caramel the Bells have, what a combo,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :gj:

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Originally Posted by RoyalVariations

that is true. I guess the ultramel/Crider does not replace the established Caramel Albino after all. the Caramel Albino makes great combos and they look better with age. combined with the ultramel/Crider or which ever line of african caramel the Bells have, what a combo,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :gj:

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There's definitely some difference between the two. A lot of people's feelings on the ultramel/Crider replacing the standard caramels are due to the kinking that's common with caramels. It's pretty similar in coloration and not prone to kinking.

I love the blushing! :banana:

Congrats Kyle! Outcrossing is key with this Morph... I think we have just begun to realize this morphs full potential!

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

There's definitely some difference between the two. A lot of people's feelings on the ultramel/Crider replacing the standard caramels are due to the kinking that's common with caramels. It's pretty similar in coloration and not prone to kinking.

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it is possible that the ultramel/Crider could be the burgandy albino. time will tell. concerning the kinking, that is why I am going through the effort outbreeding the Caramels as much as possible to "get the kinks out", no pun intended. the bottom line is that Caramels are beautiful and they make amazing combos and I personally think they warrant the effort. they are no more replaced by ultramel/Crider than ultramel/Crider are replaced by Caramel Albinos and the reason is simple, they are two different morphs. Caramel Albinos have a distinct hypo quality. they look different. I am also a fan of the ultramel/Crider lines. they are beautiful and when combined with Caramels they are amazing! Caramels need to be selectively outbred. they are worth it in my opinion. but what do I know? :)

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Originally Posted by OzzyBoids

Congrats Kyle! Outcrossing is key with this Morph... I think we have just begun to realize this morphs full potential!

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OZ,

thank you,,,,,,,,,,,,, it has taken four years to get this combo by selective breeding and it is the best clutch I have produced so far in regards to color and overall light appearance of the pattern. the hatchlings starting out light should produce some very light adults, hopefully. :)

I appreciate your thoughts,,,,,,,,,,

Beautiful! Nice job Kyle! Caramels are one of my favorites and hopefully I'll be hatching some soon!

Absolutely beautiful:)

thank you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

that really is a nice caramel, not doubt about it :)

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Originally Posted by RoyalVariations

it is possible that the ultramel/Crider could be the burgandy albino. time will tell. concerning the kinking, that is why I am going through the effort outbreeding the Caramels as much as possible to "get the kinks out", no pun intended. the bottom line is that Caramels are beautiful and they make amazing combos and I personally think they warrant the effort. they are no more replaced by ultramel/Crider than ultramel/Crider are replaced by Caramel Albinos and the reason is simple, they are two different morphs. Caramel Albinos have a distinct hypo quality. they look different. I am also a fan of the ultramel/Crider lines. they are beautiful and when combined with Caramels they are amazing! Caramels need to be selectively outbred. they are worth it in my opinion. but what do I know? :)

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Along with the toffee, paragon, and candy morphs. Could be all, could be some, could be none, just have to wait and see. :D I'm with you on the selective breeding, I'll probably be working the caramels into my own collection at some point. As far as the kinking goes, how successful have you been with avoiding them? I know there's quite a few people out there who feel it's something that's inherent with the caramel gene itself, similar to spiders and the wobbling. I know I've also heard it mentioned that incubating them at lower temperatures or lower humidity helps lower the kink rate.

oh man i love it! im hoping to produce some nerd line caramels next year and possibly caramel glow. but that one is amazing.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

Along with the toffee, paragon, and candy morphs. Could be all, could be some, could be none, just have to wait and see. :D I'm with you on the selective breeding, I'll probably be working the caramels into my own collection at some point. As far as the kinking goes, how successful have you been with avoiding them? I know there's quite a few people out there who feel it's something that's inherent with the caramel gene itself, similar to spiders and the wobbling. I know I've also heard it mentioned that incubating them at lower temperatures or lower humidity helps lower the kink rate.

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from my experience lower temps and higher humidity works for me. i tried the lower humidity "i heard that it helped". it was not the way to go "for me". it was a horrible clutch in 07. the hets died in the eggs and a Caramel was badly deformed as were the hets. one Caramel survived and it had one slight kink on the very tip of the tail. it was on the bottom of the pile of eggs and it seemed to have more humidity because it was covered by the pile of eggs. the temp was also 89-90 degrees. since then i have used temps inside the incubator of 87-88 degrees with maximum humidity. my clutches since then have been almost perfect. i have one hatchling this year that has a slight kink. it is so slight that when it is on a good feeding schedule it should not be noticable. the clutch was VPI-NERD + TSK. i will not sell this hatchling nor will i breed it. i might set up a display cage to enjoy watching this Caramel since it is not a breeder, not sure yet.

selective breeding and fine tuned incubation seems to make a huge difference with Caramels. i am NO expert. i am just obsessive compulsive about producing strong, robust, beautiful Royal Pythons which includes one of my favorite morphs, Caramel Albinos.

note, I also just hatched my first three line combined Ghost "Hypo". ok, i really am obsessive compulsive, :)

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Originally Posted by DesignerBP

oh man i love it! im hoping to produce some nerd line caramels next year and possibly caramel glow. but that one is amazing.

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thank you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

go for it, hatching those beauties is really great, :gj:

Kyle,

You sure know how to make them! Beautiful.

Justin

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

Kyle,

You sure know how to make them! Beautiful.

Justin

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Justin,

thank you,,,,,,,,,,, your comments are always appreciated. :gj:

Great looking snake, :D


Can I ask how you actually go about combining the three lines?

How many generations does it take and what do you recommend to increase the odds of hitting the combination?

Is it as simple as creating one homozygous animal from say Vpi-nerd and the TSK lines and then breeding that to a homozygous BHB line?

Or do you end up staring at a pile of hets at some point trying to work out who got what? :rolleye2:


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Great looking snake, :D


Can I ask how you actually go about combining the three lines?

How many generations does it take and what do you recommend to increase the odds of hitting the combination?

Is it as simple as creating one homozygous animal from say Vpi-nerd and the TSK lines and then breeding that to a homozygous BHB line?

Or do you end up staring at a pile of hets at some point trying to work out who got what? :rolleye2:


dr del

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it all started with purchasing a group of 100% hets from five different breeders each of which were five different established lines. i also purchased a male Caramel 100% VPI-NERD and i hatched out my own 100% TSK Caramel male from a pair of 100% TSK hets.

then it was a matter of combining two lines to produce a male. then when he was old enough i bred him with another het female from another line. it is a matter of each year taking steps towards adding more lines together which produce more combined line Caramels. the hets are very important not only because they are out bred from other breeders collections but also because they are all different lines of Caramels. the combination gave me a group to work with that was already out bred. this allowed me to not need any more hets but instead holding back certain Caramels to fill in the gaps to combine the lines. it is a work in progress.

Kyle that is definitely dedication. Did you ever have doubts early on that the lines may not cross or have you always been sure they were compatable? I also have to wonder, even with your outcrossing, just how related they are. Meaning did TSK, BHB, VPI, NERD etc etc all recieve their animals from different wild collected animals or did they all purchase from one anonther from a single imported caramel making them closer related to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Envied Reptiles

Kyle that is definitely dedication. Did you ever have doubts early on that the lines may not cross or have you always been sure they were compatable? I also have to wonder, even with your outcrossing, just how related they are. Meaning did TSK, BHB, VPI, NERD etc etc all recieve their animals from different wild collected animals or did they all purchase from one anonther from a single imported caramel making them closer related to begin with.

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excellent question, i inquired from many breeders the story on the lines. BHB for example told me that he had two lines from africa that were from the wild. VPI and NERD are the same line hence the reason i always specify that line as VPI-NERD. to my knowledge the other established lines i have mentioned are from the wild and not related "as far as we know". other Caramels have come into the country over the years. what is interesting to me is that i have noticed differences in the lines concerning color. TSK for example seems more yellow overall. my VPI-NERD seems more contrasty. my VPI-NERD X BHB combo is more yellow and lavender. the yellow on this particular Caramel is more "butter" in color. it is of course also true that Caramels can vary within the same clutch like any other morph. breeders like to purchase wild morphs and put their names on them. it is good competition and it helps us all to diversify lines. is africa always honest about all of the lines? who can really say? at the least i can say it is possible to purchase "out bred" hets and Caramels.

that's a very nice snake congrats

thank you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,