Upside Down Egg Experiment

I got into a discussion on another forum about the orientation of the embryo in the egg when it is placed in the incubation box. As a result, I decided to perform an experiment to see what would happen if we placed an egg upside down. Below is the post that I put up in the other forum.

We are 19 days into the experiment, and below is a pic and the results. What I did was to locate the embryo in an egg that was just laid (lay date 6-13-09) and mark the embryo. I then turned the egg 180 degrees and marked the opposite side with an arrow. After 7 days, I candled the egg, and learned that the embryo had started to migrate towards the top. After 14 days, I noticed that the yolk(or mass that is usually at the bottom of the egg when laid, which I purposefully had placed at the top when I set the egg in the box)had fallen to the bottom, and I couldn't find the embryo anymore. However, I could see the eye of the snake sitting above the yolk, and the egg appeared to have "fixed" itself internally after being flipped. I will post another update in about 2 weeks, when I can see pattern on the snake, and have determined that the snake is still develop;ing, and hasn't died. This has been a fun experiment, and I hope some of us can learn from it.

http://www.baileyreptiles.com/pics/0...negg19days.jpg

p.s. I still think I am going to orient the embryos up, even after the experiment, since I have been doing that for three years, and feel comfortable doing it.

That is actually quite cool.


So in theory, if someone were to flip an egg over that had already attached....it could infact not "drown"?

Really interesting stuff Tim!

I wonder myself though if it will be okay since the egg was flipped right after being laid and was therefore early enough to adjust itself vs what would happen if it was flipped much later in the development of the embryo. I'm thinking a flip of the egg later in development might cause umbilical tangling or ripping away of the yolk completely.

A lot of amphibs have genetic coding that determines how their embryos develop along a certain axis. This way, the embryo grows in a certain direction.

Now, I'm not sure if it relates to development this far along, but maybe...

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Really interesting stuff Tim!

I wonder myself though if it will be okay since the egg was flipped right after being laid and was therefore early enough to adjust itself vs what would happen if it was flipped much later in the development of the embryo. I'm thinking a flip of the egg later in development might cause umbilical tangling or ripping away of the yolk completely.

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Pat,
I think Jo's explaination above probably addresses your comment. I might need to do another experiment, in which I flip the egg 24-48 hours after being laid, as I have always thought that 24 hours was the accepted thinking on not being able to rotate any longer. I will see if we have another clutch later this season that I can risk an egg for science.

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Originally Posted by mrshawt

A lot of amphibs have genetic coding that determines how their embryos develop along a certain axis. This way, the embryo grows in a certain direction.

Now, I'm not sure if it relates to development this far along, but maybe...

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Thanks for the post. That is very interesting. Where did you obtain that info? Also, is that data specific to Ball Pythons, Reptiles in general, or eggs in general? I was just wondeing how much bearing this had on BP eggs.

I really look foward to more updates on this Tim! Excellent stuff :)

I learned about it in relation to frogs. But there are a lot of similarities in any kind of developing embryos. Even humans have a special body axis determination. But frogs I would say are the most notable. Google up "gray crescent" and you can learn a ton about it. Crazy stuff.

Bio class by the way.

This stuff is great Tim, I really have to give you props for conducting and sharing experiments like this. I respect how freely you share your experiences and I always learn something from your posts.

Tim,
Thank you for sharing this with us. It is a great experiment that most of us would not try ourselves...

Actually someone tried this over a decade ago. I cannot remember what species they tried it with, but they used many eggs, turning some immediately, some partway through incubation, etc. The article was published in Reptiles magazine (I believe--at the time, Reptile and Amphibian and the Vivarium were still running).

What they found is that there was no apparent effect on hatching rates. You see, the entire idea that an embryo can drown if an egg is turned stems from speculation. People know that reptile eggs aren't moved after they are laid, and they looked at them, and decided that there was a risk in moving them unnaturally. This guess was passed on from person to person, until it was assumed to be a fact, but it never was a confirmed fact. Marking the tops and taking care not to turn the eggs is actually only a precaution against a POSSIBLE problem.

No testing I am aware of so far has actually confirmed that it's a problem. Naturally, everyone, including me, is going to continue marking eggs and keeping them upright, because we don't want to take the chance that ANY egg might die because it was turned--even if it was one in a hundred. There's no way to be sure it could never happen.

However, there is also no reason at all to be upset if an egg is accidently moved from its original position. It will probably be just fine. As Tim's experiment proves again, they generally are.

I can't wait to see what you find from this! IMO nature isn't as difficult as we might all think it to be. I think the egg will turn out ok, we'll see :D

Does anyone know why reptiles are so different from poultry? We have incubators going all the time for turkeys, geese, ducks, chickens, pheasants, etc. When you incubate poultry you must turn the egg 2-3 times a day if you want the eggs to hatch. I understand that the way reptile eggs and poultry eggs are kept warm naturally are very different, but why can poultry eggs handle being turned every day and reptile eggs can't handle being turned even once? If a duckling or gosling is turned upside down once it's out of the egg it will die within minutes.....but it can handle it in the egg???? I don't get it, I just follow the advice of BPnet especially when hatching reptile eggs :D I'm not saying that reptile eggs can be turned every day!!! I just find it strange that they are so different. They even incubate at about the same temp, it just varies a few degrees depending on the type of poultry!

Sure--bird eggs have to be turned so that the membranes do not attach to the inside of the shell, which can prevent the embryo from developing properly--but reptile eggs are actually 'designed' to do exactly that in order to grow properly.

I don't know why ducklings or goslings would die if turned upside down. I imagine it would be a combination of stress, and perhaps difficulty in breathing? Of course, in the egg, they do not use their lungs to breathe.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Sure--bird eggs have to be turned so that the membranes do not attach to the inside of the shell, which can prevent the embryo from developing properly--but reptile eggs are actually 'designed' to do exactly that in order to grow properly.

I don't know why ducklings or goslings would die if turned upside down. I imagine it would be a combination of stress, and perhaps difficulty in breathing? Of course, in the egg, they do not use their lungs to breathe.

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Thank you that makes sense......so weird. I wonder if nature made it that way because a snake can't exactly move the eggs around like a chicken can.

I didn't want to hijack the thread so here are some pics of my ducklings.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...94#post1093094

Thanks for sharing this Tim. Your previous posts about how you manhandle your eggs made me feel a lot more comfortable when handling and candling my eggs, and now, trying an experiment like this to help all of us get a little better understanding of what's going on inside these eggs is great. We all owe you for your willingness to test the waters and share your experience.

:salute:

Cool experiment Tim. I too am looking forward to your results.

Same here. I know that many people (myself included) have wonder if the egg that rolled away from Mom would be okay. Can't wait for the results.

Wow Tim! Awesome stuff. This is something that is good, and interesting for all of us to know. :gj:

i gotta say that is the best candling pic i have seen so far !!!

Thanks for all of the compliments folks. I always enjoy doing little experiments, to learn a little bit more, and I find it selfish to not share the results with my favorite forum. Hopefully the next experiment will begin this week. I have another clucth of eggs due within the next day or two (a clucth that I can afford to possibly lose an egg), In this one, I will flip the egg after it has been in the egg box for 48 hours. As winged Wolf stated, it may not make a difference at all, however, I like to see things for myself (I guess I am just hard headed like the rest of the men in the world).

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Originally Posted by patb201985

i gotta say that is the best candling pic i have seen so far !!!

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Thanks Pat. What I didn't tell you, is that I took over 30 pictures to get that one, mostly because I have never taken a picture in the dark before, so it was a learning experience for me.

I just wanted to post a quick update to the experiment. I just flipped the second egg. This is the egg that I said I would rotate after it had been in the incubation box for 48 hours. Actually, this egg has been in the box for about 56 hours (laid on July 5th), but I was at work for the 48 hour mark. I will now be posting updates on how both eggs are doing.

The first egg that was flipped immediately after laying is now at day 24 and looking completely normal.

great project and good to hear that first flipped egg is still looking normal.

Very Interesting experiment...hows it going?? Still candling eggs?? Update?

Pete

Iwill be posting an update this evening. Both eggs are doing fine, but I wanted to let everyone know how far into incubation they are when I post the update.

Very interseting experiment Tim.

I was always under the impression that it is ok to move the egg for the first few days, its when the embryo is more developed that moving could be an issue.

After watching how my beardies are reall rough with the eggs as they bury them, I am not as worried about eggs when I handle or move them.

They are obviously tougher than we think.

In many reptiles(turtle, lizards) eggs are buried so moving is not an issue.
With ball pythons they often stick together which would also stop them from rolling around.

In poultry its a little different.

I've often wondered what the difference was for birds vs reptiles eggs. Since bird eggs must be turned regularly(twice a day for chickens I know) and reptile eggs must NOT be turned(at least past a certain point), I've wondered what the difference was. Why should reptile adhere to the side, while birds should not? Something to think on.

Here is the detailed update. Both eggs are still doing fine. The first egg is on day 40 (this is the egg that was flipped as soon as it was laid). The second egg still appears to be fine as well (this is the egg that was flipped after being in the incubator for over 48 hours). Hopefully both eggs will go full term. It will definitely help ease my mind when it comes to handling eggs.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Here is the detailed update. Both eggs are still doing fine. The first egg is on day 40 (this is the egg that was flipped as soon as it was laid). The second egg still appears to be fine as well (this is the egg that was flipped after being in the incubator for over 48 hours). Hopefully both eggs will go full term. It will definitely help ease my mind when it comes to handling eggs.

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Cool experiment! Amy just said she doesn't think you would do it 2 weeks after being laid. I smell a challenge! :O

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I've often wondered what the difference was for birds vs reptiles eggs. Since bird eggs must be turned regularly(twice a day for chickens I know) and reptile eggs must NOT be turned(at least past a certain point), I've wondered what the difference was. Why should reptile adhere to the side, while birds should not? Something to think on.

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Here's an interesting link.....

http://books.google.com/books?id=uye...esult&resnum=3

This should take you directly to page 307 which discusses egg turning in birds and reptiles.

Great find Jo! I think that about answers the questions about where the no-egg turning came from. :gj:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Cool experiment! Amy just said she doesn't think you would do it 2 weeks after being laid. I smell a challenge! :O

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You guys are killing me. I am not scared, but I have to go look and see if I have any other "not important" clutches(I say that loosely), as I think all babies are important. All of my fun stuff seems to be coming at the end of the season. I am not beyond learning for the better good, and I will let you guys know as soon as I find the special egg that will get turned at the 2 week mark. She tried to bluff the wrong cat. HAHAHA.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

You guys are killing me. I am not scared, but I have to go look and see if I have any other "not important" clutches(I say that loosely), as I think all babies are important. All of my fun stuff seems to be coming at the end of the season. I am not beyond learning for the better good, and I will let you guys know as soon as I find the special egg that will get turned at the 2 week mark. She tried to bluff the wrong cat. HAHAHA.

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Hahaha...I don't want to be responsible for the death of a baby snake! I agree with her however that the true test is at or after the 2 week mark. Mad Scientist Muddoc...I like it!

If it comes out evil and with strange mutant mental powers and takes over the world, it wasn't my fault. Just saying...

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Hahaha...I don't want to be responsible for the death of a baby snake! I agree with her however that the true test is at or after the 2 week mark. Mad Scientist Muddoc...I like it!

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

If it comes out evil and with strange mutant mental powers and takes over the world, it wasn't my fault. Just saying...

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Thanks for the great laughs Jamie and Theresa. I really do enjoy the experiments though, and I see Amy's suggestion as a very valid question. I am really going to try to find an egg to attempt that with. I'll keep everyone filled in as usual.

Quick Update.

I just cut the first egg that was flipped immediately after being laid. It looks just as developed as the others with no problems. Guess what it is a Pastel.

As for the second egg, it is now on day 29, and looks just fine. I decided to candle it for the first time yesterday, and it looks as if it has righted itself. Also, it appears to be a Spider.

I think after my luck with these two flipped eggs, I might just start flipping them all. It appears that when you flip them, they turn into morphs. (Just kidding). I don't actually believe that, but it was neat.


Stayed tuned, as we are only about 2 weeks from cutting egg experiment number 2 with the Spider inside.

Thanks for the update!

Makes me feel better about my mojo x mojo clutch from last weekend. The 4 egg pile that was not stuck together, so when I grabbed her the eggs went everywhere. I candled them and put dark spot on top. They still look fine....

Even if there was no experiment, I would think that, given the random nature of where eggs are laid in the wild, there would be some shifting in the possible mediums they could be laid on, so then nature would account for this and adjust accordingly.

Thoughts?

Brandon

The beaches here in florida are combed regularly for sea turtle nests. Those that are presumed to have been there for 24+ hours are left alone and covered with screen covers to protect them. The ones that are discovered fresh(ie-the mother is still there) are collected to protect them from getting destroyed accidentally by ignorant beachgoers or taken by predators or poachers. This practice stems from the idea that reptile eggs were not meant to be moved.

I'm glad to hear that they can take a little moving. Thanks for the experiment, and I look forward to the future results.

The first egg experiment snake hatched last week, but it has been busy around here. I thought I would come and post a pic of the Pastel that crawled out though. It came out of the egg in the lower left hand corner (notice the arrow on the egg shell. That was to tell me that the embryo was origionally 180 degrees around the egg.
http://www.baileyreptiles.com/pics/eggexperiment1.jpg

The mad scientist at work! Nice!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

The mad scientist at work! Nice!

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Sweet... Good Job/ EH!:gj:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Actually someone tried this over a decade ago. I cannot remember what species they tried it with, but they used many eggs, turning some immediately, some partway through incubation, etc. The article was published in Reptiles magazine (I believe--at the time, Reptile and Amphibian and the Vivarium were still running).

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Henry Dean did this experiment years ago. i think he used corns but maybe milks.
as a side note for corns in general i had my entire incubator knocked on the ground and the 25 or 26 eggs inside it had flipped 180. they were 1 month into incubation. my mother (who flipped it) tried to hide the fact that they flipped and put everything back together backwards(180). so 2 days later when i got home i noticed right off the bat.
ALL BABIED HATCHED WITH A 100% SURVIVAL RATE
i understand that this proves nothing
adam jeffery

although reptile eggs are laid normally in or under something. they do get moved. they are constantly getting dug up by every mammal with a nose and many eggs get distroyed, those that werent usually survive to hatch, thats why many reptiles lay numerous eggs and/or many clutches(turtles)
adam jeffery

Just another note on the secong egg experiment. I have cut the second egg, and it is a normal that looks fine. It should be hatching this week. I will post up a pic as soon as it emerges.

p.s. Adam, thanks for the extra info, and for adding it to this post. I think it will prove invaluable for people that read this in the future.

Thanks for this thread, Tim. It's been invaluable following along and I think reassuring to a lot of us that may have had an egg roll accidentally that all may not be lost. Lovely hatchlings you got out of those eggs too. :)

i emailed henry dean trying to find his web site and he replied saying that he removed the website.he did however send me an email of what he had posted on his site. im going to cut and paste the entire email on here for everyone else to read.

here it is:
sorry it took so long. had to find it saved on a floppy since my site is ober now.

EGGS - I live in a warm climate and my snake rooms are kept between 78-82 degrees. I don't use incubators since they are unnecessary here. You may live in a cooler region and warm each cage seperately so my method may not be for you. I just use a plastic shoe box with a few small holes in the lid. I put an inch of very damp large size vermiculite as a substrate and place the eggs on the vermiculite and put the plastic shoe box on a top shelf in the room which is 82 degrees or so. If the eggs are laid in a pile, I never try and seperate them. I just use a strip of wax paper with a few slits in it and place it over the top of the eggs so the humidity will stay high on the eggs at the top of the pile. I don't worry about the ratio of water to vermiculite. I just use very damp vermiculite. I don't think you can go wrong as long as the eggs aren't standing in water. The purpose of the vermiculite is to retain moisture yet allow air exchange around the egg. This is why I like the large vermiculite since I feel it allows more air exchange around the egg. Probably doesn't matter since I know people that completely bury their eggs and hatch them all just fine. I used to use damp paper towels as an egg medium and they worked great but you have to keep misting them almost daily so I like the low maintenance of vermiculite. I have also used spagnum moss but found flying bugs after several weeks of damp moss so I don't use it any more.
Some people seem to worry about bad eggs next to good ones and end up destroying good eggs trying to remove bad ones or by using chemicals to clean mold off good ones. Don't worry about bad moldy eggs if they are attached to a pile of eggs. Good eggs are very hardy.

You need to candle the eggs when they are layed to see which ones are good. Just use a pen light in the dark and put it up against the egg and you should see veins if it is good. Good eggs will have veins in them. They may have veins almost immediately after being layed yet I have had it take a week for them to show up good. Some eggs layed look great but aren't fertile. They will candle as no veins. I believe this is where people got the idea that a bad egg next to this good looking one caused this good looking one to go bad. That so called good looking one wasn't any good to start with. I candle my eggs. I've seen a pile of eggs where I knew which ones where infertile because of no veins seen. These eggs looked great for weeks but sooner or later they started getting moldy and turned black. These were right up against eggs I knew were good. The good ones hatched with none going bad because of the bad black moldy ones attached to it.

I have always found that snake eggs are very tough and this is how nature designed them. If a predator came upon a clutch and tearing through the eggs eating several but leaving the others laying around disturbed them from their original laying position it seemed wrong that the other eggs wouldn't hatch. Snakes have been around for a long time and it would figure that their eggs aren't that fragile or how else could they continue to survive and thrive.

I decided to started an experiment using 4 good snake eggs(veins when candled). I wanted to know if turning snake eggs would hurt them. I know there is no reason to turn snake eggs and I don't recommend it but I was curious if all the talk about turning snakes eggs making them go bad was just as incorrect as most other don'ts such as (don't touch them with your bare hands, keep them at 100% humidity, don't let moldy eggs stay attached to good ones, keep at a constant temperature, etc). Most of these don'ts have proven to be false and are used as excuses when eggs go bad. Some just go bad and some were never fertilized even though they looked good. Things happen.

I started with 4 eggs from a Leucistic Texas Rat Snake that were layed on 6-28-99. I waited until I could candle all 4 eggs and see great veins in them. I decided to turn the eggs at different stages to see if it would hurt them. All were turned and none were to be at their original layed postion when hatching. Following is the turning schedule.

EGG ONE-- On 7-7-99 I turned it one half turn to the right and never bothered it again.

EGG TWO-- On 7-7-99 I turned it one quarter turn to the right and I turned it one quarter turn to the right every week until 8-21-99 with it being turned one and three quarters turns total.

EGG THREE--I turned this egg one half turn to the right on 8-4-99 about one half the way through incubation and never bothered it again.

EGG FOUR-- On 7-7-99 I turned this egg one half turn to the right and on 8-4-99 one half turn to the right again and on 8-21-99 one half turn to the right again for a total of one and one half total times.

All four eggs hatched on 9-4-99 with 4 perfect males.

Even though this grouping is too small for any real scientific findings it does show that in this case using Luecistic Texas Rat Snake eggs that turning them at these times did no harm.




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Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 15:18:13 -0500
From:
To:
Subject: havnt heard from ya in a while aka farfrumugen


hey henry,
i was talking to some folks on another forum about the experiment you did years ago with rotating snake eggs.
i know you had the whole thing posted on your website, but i cant remember what the address was and the bookmark is on my old hard drive.
if you could send me the address it would be appreciative.
im not so into hybrids anymore i still have 3 or 4, but after years of eggs going bad and females actually being males and retarded deaths im just getting sick of the project.
so what has been new for you? anything crazy hatch out?
well keep in touch.
ill try and hook up my old hard drive but email me the link either way.
thank you
adam jeffery

Thanks for the post Adam.

I also wanted to note that the last egg I turned after 56 hours, hatched fine. I do have a pic, and I should be posting it later tonight.

As for Jamie's request, I did not have a clutch laid after his request that I was capable of flipping an egg after two weeks. However, I will attempt this experiment next year.

Thanks for the post
:gj:

I think it very useful for anyone who make egg rolled after snake laid her eggs.

Awesome your experiment :O
Thanks again
Jessada