What little thing am I missing that's preventing my bp from eating?

Trying to troubleshoot nuances that may be preventing my 7 year old normal male rescue from eating. I am an older lady with her first snake and on my own here. Suggestions welcome.

History:

Adult male normal bp rescued and rehabbed winter 2008.
Had not eaten for 4 months when rescued; physical trauma and health problems resolved during rehab.
During spring 2008 ate both live and f/t medium rats 1x a week; strong feeding response.
Adopted 7/2008; switched to exclusively f/t medium rats 7/2008 1x a week; no problems, strong feeding response.
Sept. 2008 starting eating only if rat left in tub overnight--shy but ate OK.
Refused food late 10/2008 and did not take food again until 3/2009.

During this time, saw good herp vet; no mites, parasites, RIs, etc. Minimal weight loss during entire fast. Clean and healthy bp.
Vet suggested feeding every 10-14 days once eating again.

Was offered rats every week, then every 2 weeks. Experimented with all of the usual listed sticky suggestions. Also tried supervised live rats, f/t mice. Refused all.

Started eating f/t medium rats again 3/9/2009
Ate 3/22/2009
Refused 4/5/2009, ate 4/12/2009.
Refused 4/26, 5/3, 5/11--ate 5/17/2009
That was the last time he ate to date, over a month ago.

Feeding routine:

No handling feeding day
Fed in his tub
Rats thawed @ room temp and heated by hair dryer or heat lamp before offered with hemostats
Room prescented at least 1 hour

Have tried moving tub location in rack, feeding at different times of day, with light on/off, rat puppet theater action, offering rats from different sources, leaving hides/removing hides, switching substrate to paper towels, switching to appropriately-sized matching round hides. So far, no joy.

Environment:

RBI CB70 3-tub rack heated with two strips of 3” Flexwatt heat tape
Rack housed in a converted walk-in closet; quiet, no traffic, no drafts
12 hours light/12 hours dark
Herpstat thermostat
Acurite thermometer/hygrometer with probe
Radio Shack wireless thermometer
RBI temp gun
Ambient temp: 78-81F
Cool side temps: 79-82F
Warm side temps: 92-94F
Humidity: 60-65% (70s in shed)
Heat supplemented as needed by oil filled heater
Same size smaller black plastic RBI hides both sides
Aspen substrate
Disinfectant: Chlorhexidine gluconate
Cleaning: Tub spot-cleaned daily as needed; complete tub changeout and disinfecting every 10 days
Water changed daily
Handled a couple of times a week for 10-15 minutes when eating on schedule; no handling when not eating

Misc.:

All 4 sheds since 7/2008 have been complete and one-piece perfect.
He thermoregulates appropriately.
Drinks and urinates. No soaking in water bowel.
Has a calm temperament. Alert and responsive but no striking, escaping, or balling up when handled. Good muscle tone and tongue flicking.

Gotta be operator error. I think I have the environmental basics covered, but apparently I'm missing whatever it is that's bothering him. I keep daily records and in review, cannot identify any significant differences in his environment when he's eating and when he's not. Thanks for taking time to read this lengthy post.

No, it looks like you've got every thing on your end covered. And beautifully I might add. Keep up the good work.

However, it is bp mating season, where many males' minds stray from warm rat goodness to...you know... :P
Just keep offering food and checking his weight every so often. Also, I would maybe refrain from handling him until he starts eating again, just in case.

Welcome by the way! There's ton of stuff to learn here although it looks like you already know a ton!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrshawt

No, it looks like you've got every thing on your end covered. And beautifully I might add. Keep up the good work.

However, it is bp mating season, where many males' minds stray from warm rat goodness to...

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...cold blooded sexiness.

The only thing I can throw in is to try throwing a RBI hide in there.
Also, have you tried moving down tub-sizes? When one my snakes is having trouble feeding (even my adults) moving them down a tub size tend to get them back on schedule. Try moving him to a 32q.

Just another idea. :gj:

I would try no handling for 1 week or up to next feeding attempt, I would downsize the tub, and also try covering the front of the tub for security or adding paper filler in the tub for increase security.

But I second what others have said, as long as there is no major weight loss it can be normal for feeding behavior during breeding season to change, hang in there:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

The only thing I can throw in is to try throwing a RBI hide in there.
Also, have you tried moving down tub-sizes? When one my snakes is having trouble feeding (even my adults) moving them down a tub size tend to get them back on schedule. Try moving him to a 32q.

Just another idea. :gj:

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I agree, I have had some ball pythons start eating again once moved from a 41 quart to a 28 or 32 quart. I also had one refuse in a 32 quart, so I moved him down into a 6 quart, and he started eating again a few days later. A hide is also a good idea. They like tight, dark hides. Good luck.

Never apologize for giving us full information. It's a wonderful thing! :)

The only information I'd like to know is this snake's weight and length (just to help us help you better). Tracking weights, especially during seasonal or breeding induced fasts, will really help you see that in most cases these are quite normal events and result in very overall weight loss. You may see a more significant loss in breeding females or in younger males that are breeding very actively but in your case, with a pet snake that's sexually mature, you shouldn't really see any large percentage of body weight lost.

It sounds like you have your ducks in a row as far as his husbandry and are doing very well on your record keeping.

Have you tried African soft-furred rats? Mice?

sexy time!

Sincere thanks to everyone who has taken time to reply. It’s a busy world, and I appreciate your efforts and willingness to help. Some of you, I’ve been reading your forum posts for more than a year. Truly appreciate all of your personal replies and respect your experience and dedication. “Each one, teach one” is alive and well on BP.net.

frankykeno asked about weight and length… he is 34” long and weighs 1600g. His weight has fluctuated as follows:

7/2008 1741g (he'd been fed extra during rehab to help him recover)
10/2008 1645g
12/2008 1640g
1/2009 1568g
2/2009 1549g
3/2009 1565g
4/2009 1580g
5/2009 1598g
6/2009 1600g

His greatest loss was a total of 192g over the winter. He had begun to gain back lost weight in 3/2009-4/2009. Right now he’s 1600g, down 141g from the original 1741g. But as I mentioned earlier, he's still robust and strong. I’ve spoken to my herp vet several times over the months about the weight loss, and he characterized it as minor considering the fast.

To those who suggested my male snake might be trying to bring sexy back… OK, I knew about fall fasts for mating hopefuls, but I didn't know bps can go off feed in the spring as well. Thanks for pointing that out.

To those who suggested hides… yes, in addition to the RBI hides I’ve also tried snug plastic round hides and larger RBI hides. We did the Goldilocks thing last summer with several sets of matching hides to see which he preferred. I’m embarrassed to tell you how much time I clocked last year trying to find a correlation between hide size, shape and feeding success. So far… none. But he does use hides.

To those who cautioned against handling… yes, absolutely, and since he’s not eating, I’ve stopped all handling. Exceptions: I did weigh him this month, and on his last shed I did examine him briefly to ensure all shed was gone. Other than that, no “recreational” handling. When he's on his eating schedule, I handle him 10-15 minutes a couple times a week; when he skips a meal, I stop handling.

To those who suggested downsizing his tubs to 32 qt. and below… he is an adult male and currently lives in a 3-tiered RBI rack with CB70 (30.6 qt.) tubs. The tubs measure 17.75” x 33.5” x 5.25” and fit snugly into the rack. Until now I hadn’t considered moving him to anything smaller. But Eddie, you mentioned you’d had success moving down to a 6 qt. tub, even? Definitely worth considering if this fast continues.

I will try Kysenia’s suggestion of covering the front of the tub.

To answer Eddie’s question, no, I haven’t tried ASFs but I have tried mice.

Again, thank you all for responding. I will apply the tweaks as discussed and keep the faith.

One of the things that may work to get him interested in feeding again is to try and get hold of some live rat fuzzies (also known as rat crawlers). This is the stage right before their eyes open but they are fully furred - about 10 to 14 days of age. Since they have little to no erupted teeth at this point they are quite safe to leave in overnight with your snake. I know most of my adults just can't seem to resist a chubby rat fuzzy and I often use those to kick start a feeding response. A couple of those don't really make a meal for a bigger BP but if they "snack" on them it does seem to get their mind back on feed and get their digestive process re-activating after a fast.

7/6/2009 update:

Though unable to entice my snake to eat a live fuzzy, I did --finally-- get him to eat a large f/t mouse last night. :bow: A far cry from his usual f/t medium rat, but I'll take any small victory.

Question: Do I offer him another large f/t mouse tonight or during the next couple of days, or do I wait until his regular feeding day (Sunday) and try a f/t small or medium rat?

I usually offer him f/t medium rats but as you know, have been trying a variety of prey sizes and types to see if I could stimulate him to eat. I do not want to stress him... but should I capitalize on this show of appetite?

Thank you for your experience and time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by starfire

7/6/2009 update:

Though unable to entice my snake to eat a live fuzzy, I did --finally-- get him to eat a large f/t mouse last night. :bow: A far cry from his usual f/t medium rat, but I'll take any small victory.

Question: Do I offer him another large f/t mouse tonight or during the next couple of days, or do I wait until his regular feeding day (Sunday) and try a f/t small or medium rat?

I usually offer him f/t medium rats but as you know, have been trying a variety of prey sizes and types to see if I could stimulate him to eat. I do not want to stress him... but should I capitalize on this show of appetite?

Thank you for your experience and time.

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Hi, that is great news. Grats on getting him to eat! Since the meal is smaller than his regular meal, I would either put him on an every five day feeding schedule, or better yet feed him two large mice every seven days until he start taking f/t again. Also you may only need to feed him one small f/t rat every seven days, instead of a medium. That will keep him eating more constantly for you.

Keep us updated.

Star, since he's a good sized male BP I wouldn't at all worry about his small weight losses. Overall he's really not far below his normal weight range. Also he is a male so he may really never need more than a small to a small/medium rat. These snakes are very self-regulating so if we overdo it as owners, they will simply adjust their feeding needs to the excess of prey. In other words, they will fast. BP's are rarely if ever seen to be obese, at least in my experience. Also as an adult male he may well eventually settle into an every other week or every 10 day feeding schedule. Just work with him to find what prey type and size works to encourage him to be a consistent and strong hunter.

For now though, since you found what triggered a feeding I'd say don't change a thing. Better you get a smaller than normal feeding into him regularily then you change anything right now and trigger another refusal. I'd stick with exactly what you did as far as prey, feeding style, routines on feeding day, etc. Change nothing is my best advise right now. BP's do well with routines and can react negatively to changes in what they "know".

Once you have a good number of successful feedings going on then very slowly up his prey size a bit. Be cautious, be patient, this certainly doesn't sound like a snake that is starving so you have oodles of time on your side to sort him out.

Do you have any females in the other tubs?

Jo, thank you for an excellent action---or rather inaction---plan. That's exactly what I will do.

Vypyrz, my snake's a bachelor living solo... has a few calendars on the wall of females in shed, but that's about all....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by starfire

Vypyrz, my snake's a bachelor living solo... has a few calendars on the wall of females in shed, but that's about all....

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Omg HAHAHAHAHAHA! Star that's a priceless response, I'm loving it! If there's anything a ball python owner or breeder needs it's patience AND a good sense of humor! Good for you.

As far as my advice, sometimes Star I've found that the best action is no action at all. Sometimes it's best to step back, see the bigger picture, assess the whole situation and allow the snake time to show you what it needs. Snakes aren't as much a quick reaction pet as dogs and cats. They require tons of patience and an ability to think outside the normal "pet" experience. You'll get there, we all do. :)

07 14 2009 update: Just wanted to let you know that the plan is working... thanks to all of you. On feeding day this week, my snake ate another f/t large mouse. Most significantly, he had a strong feeding response. In my initial post I commented that last fall he was eating, but he would only eat if I left the f/t prey in the tub and closed it up overnight. Ditto for the sporadic meals he took this spring. However, yesterday he hit that dangling, jiggling mouse like a freight train and gave a mighty squeeze. First time I've seen interest like that since last summer. I'm encouraged.

The plan is working; that's two weeks in a row, and I will continue to proceed very s-l-o-w-l-y. Goal is to establish a solid eating pattern from week to week. A large mouse is just an amuse-bouche for an adult male bp, but a regular something beats a regular nothing every time.

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to share this good news. When you run down the street laughing and waving your arms, shouting "My snake ate! My snake ate!" people just point and stare---and you get written up by the HOA. This forum is much more forgiving.

Aww, it's good to hear such a happy update. I was wondering how your snakey was coming along. A huge sigh of relief for you, I'll bet! Keep us posted! :)

All of my snakes get mice, even the big females (2500g+). They don't need rats. You should feed what they will eat on a consistent basis. Adult males generally get 2 large adult mice every 10-14 days depending on the individual snake. Younger males may get more if preparing for breeding season.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by starfire

07 14 2009 update: Just wanted to let you know that the plan is working... thanks to all of you. On feeding day this week, my snake ate another f/t large mouse. Most significantly, he had a strong feeding response. In my initial post I commented that last fall he was eating, but he would only eat if I left the f/t prey in the tub and closed it up overnight. Ditto for the sporadic meals he took this spring. However, yesterday he hit that dangling, jiggling mouse like a freight train and gave a mighty squeeze. First time I've seen interest like that since last summer. I'm encouraged.

The plan is working; that's two weeks in a row, and I will continue to proceed very s-l-o-w-l-y. Goal is to establish a solid eating pattern from week to week. A large mouse is just an amuse-bouche for an adult male bp, but a regular something beats a regular nothing every time.

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to share this good news. When you run down the street laughing and waving your arms, shouting "My snake ate! My snake ate!" people just point and stare---and you get written up by the HOA. This forum is much more forgiving.

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Wonderful news! Exactly what I think we all hoped you'd post. Slow and steady, stick to simple routines, do what works for your particular snake - it's simple advice but often works out well. :)

Oh don't worry about being crazy happy about getting your snake feeding well. My husband and I have been known to tiptoe out of a room in order to dance around in the hallway, high fiving like crazy fools because a rescue just took it's first meal.

08 04 2009 Epilogue.... Just wanted to leave one last post to let you know that I have kept to the plan, and my snake continues to eat each week. For several more weeks, I offered a large f/t mouse every 7 days---with a strong feeding response. Then for the last two weeks, I've offered a f/t small rat each week, and each rat has been snatched, coiled, and gobbled. I know I don't have to tell any of you how satisfying and affirming it is to finally see your snake eat on a regular basis.

My snake continues to thrive in all other ways as discussed in earlier posts, and he's added weight, now at 1673g. So I'm quite content to ride the small rat wave. Yes, he ate mediums last year, but as long as he's eating, I'll feed him whatever he'll eat---period. Feeling a lot of love for the smalls right now.

I learned a great deal from this experience---specifically, that it's OK to reduce the size and type of the prey and essentially start over to re-establish a successful eating pattern.

Thanks to all of you for helping me through and teaching me for the future.

____
Star