Input on multiple snakes in one tank.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7799/dsc03689.jpg

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7840/dsc03674o.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3488/dsc03698w.jpg
^Cleo


We have 4 snakes.

0.1 (2.0" BP)(Zelda)
1.0 (2.2" BP)(Emilio aka Millie)
1.0 (2.5" BP)(Caesar)
0.1 (4.3" BP)(Cleo) <- She's kind of agressive.

Now, we keep them all in the same vivarium and they seem to like it. We haven't had ANY feeding problems at all, except with the big girl who was fasting, but she's eating a healthy meal once a week now. They all eat small rats.

The vivarium has a large UTH on the right side, and has two heat lamps, one for daytime and an infrared one for night time since the living room gets pretty cold. For humidity, the only thing I've been able to do is keep misting the tank with a spray bottle.

I was told they need to be separated, and I was also told that they shouldnt cuddle with each other, which they have been.

In the next few weeks, we're planning on making some sort of display for them. Initially, since I wasn't aware of the issues of keeping them together, we had planned to just make it a big display and put all four of them in there. After reading some things in the forum, I am now thinking of making a display that is separated into four tanks.

I'm sure Cleo has to be completely separate since she's so big, but can the smaller snakes be in the same tank? or do they ALL have to be separate? Or is it by gender?

They crawl around the tank at night, exploring I guess. Pretty nice to look at. I'll post a pic of all of them in a few mins, my camera is charging.

General rule of thumb one snake one cage. The only time you should house snakes together is for breeding.

I would keep them all separated. By keeping them together, you will never know who poops or pees, who sheds. If one gets sick, they all get sick and that is a hefty vet bill!

I believe that it is best for the snakes if you separate them all. They will probably be much happier in the long run.

Cuddling is actually them competing for dominance. Usually this causes the dominated snake to go off feed. I am actually rather surprised that all of your snakes are eating but that still doesn't make it okay to house them together in my eyes.

Two of those snakes are mine, Zelda and Caesar. Millie and Cleo are my roommate's.

We just moved into a new house and had no other place to put them, so we put them in the big tank he had at his old apt.

What if they're the same sex and same size?

This is really just my opinion. There is no law that says you can't keep ball pythons together.

BUT. Every breeder I know keeps all of their snakes housed separately. This is for the benefit of the snakes. A snake is more likely to thrive living by itself then it is with cage-mates. As I said before, keeping two snakes together can double vet bills and you also don't know who is pooping/peeing/shedding. Not to mention the high probability that one of the snakes will stop eating or grow more slowly than the other.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

I would keep them all separated. By keeping them together, you will never know who poops or pees, who sheds. If one gets sick, they all get sick and that is a hefty vet bill!

I believe that it is best for the snakes if you separate them all. They will probably be much happier in the long run.

Cuddling is actually them competing for dominance. Usually this causes the dominated snake to go off feed. I am actually rather surprised that all of your snakes are eating but that still doesn't make it okay to house them together in my eyes.

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Yeah, I can see what you're saying about pooping and peeing.

Do you think it would be ok to leave them in there until we make our bigger separated display? It won't be until next month.

And yeah, they all eat like this:

YouTube - Caesar the Ball Python devours Rat
^that's Caesar.

They won't die thats for sure. I would try to get them separated asap though.

Have you ever considered plastic housing? To be quite honest, Ball pythons make terrible display snakes because they (should) spend 90% of their time hiding.

This is a great guide to setting up an enclosure: http://ball-pythons.net/modules/Sect...warticle&id=40

It is cheap and easy to manage :)

[QUOTE=Kaorte;1082644]
Cuddling is actually them competing for dominance. Usually this causes the dominated snake to go off feed. /QUOTE]

This interests me. Can you provide your sources for this information?

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

They won't die thats for sure. I would try to get them separated asap though.

Have you ever considered plastic housing? To be quite honest, Ball pythons make terrible display snakes because they (should) spend 90% of their time hiding.

This is a great guide to setting up an enclosure: http://ball-pythons.net/modules/Sect...warticle&id=40

It is cheap and easy to manage :)

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Yeah, we have considered plastic housing but we'd like to stick to display tanks. They do spend most of their time hiding but the tank itself is a nice adition and conversation starter in our living room.

[QUOTE=wilomn;1082665]

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Cuddling is actually them competing for dominance. Usually this causes the dominated snake to go off feed. /QUOTE]

This interests me. Can you provide your sources for this information?

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Nope. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Kaorte;1082672]

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Nope. :rolleyes:

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Are there any?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Cuddling is actually them competing for dominance. Usually this causes the dominated snake to go off feed.

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This interests me. Can you provide your sources for this information?

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I've heard that from different breeders.

[QUOTE=wilomn;1082673]

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Are there any?

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Originally Posted by http://www.freewebs.com/pythonpassion/frequentlyaskedqa.htm

Q: Can two or more ball pythons be housed in the same enclosure, even if it's a large enclosure? A: No, ball pythons are not social creatures and should be housed separately. Often, one feels dominated by another cagemate and will refuse food. Often they will be observed "cuddling" together; they are not in fact cuddling, they are competing for the "best" spot in the cage. Another drawback is feeding time: you must separate them for feeding, thus moving one to another enclosure. (Please see above reasons why feeding outside of the cage is not recommended.) Yet another drawback is if you have one snake get sick; it will quickly spread to all of the snakes in the enclosure, and often it is almost impossible to determine which one is the sick snake. In extremely rare instances, ball pythons can be cannibalistic and eat their cagemate for dinner. If the two snakes are similar in size, this will effectively kill both animals.

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Originally Posted by midtx350z

I've heard that from different breeders.

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Great. Who? What were the circumstances that lead them to this conclusion?

I'm genuinely curious.

I love when we get threads like this on here. It never fails to get asked like once a month. Just do a search of the forums dude, You'll find all the info you want on this subject. there are TONS of threads about keeping snakes together and how you SHOULDN'T do it.

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Originally Posted by Lewdogg3

I love when we get threads like this on here. It never fails to get asked like once a month. Just do a search of the forums dude, You'll find all the info you want on this subject. there are TONS of threads about keeping snakes together and how you SHOULDN'T do it.

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Agreed. But then what would Wes have to argue about, and what would I have o read and be entertained.

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Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

Agreed. But then what would Wes have to argue about, and what would I have o read and be entertained.

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Yeah, but once all the arguing starts people get there feelings hurt, Infraction points start flying around and it just gets messy LOL



But you do raise a good point... What fun would it be without Wes and his posts

So, one should stop all learning once one has all the popular and accepted knowledge?

If that's what is being said, I am saddened by those saying it.

The great thing about this hobby is that there is no exact science about how to do things. I myself still firmly believe that housing one snake per enclosure is the best for the snake's health.

It eliminates many variables that may cause an animal not to thrive to the fullest. While we may not be able to prove dominance issues we can certainly eliminate it from our equation if we choose to do so.

With that said you will find many people that have housed snakes together for many years without a problem. It has its risks (illness transfer, possible dominance issues) but it can be done. Its up to the keeper to make a informed decision on what route they want to take.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So, one should stop all learning once one has all the popular and accepted knowledge?

If that's what is being said, I am saddened by those saying it.

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That's not exactly whats being said, more so that one should search and read up on things more before jumping the gun and posting.

All I have to say is they are your snakes and do with them as you please. Just keep in mind the added risk of multiple snakes together. But I would definetely get a larger cage with lots of hides so everyone can be happy. :D

I wouldn't keep them together, That's because I want to make sure I am doing everything I possibly can to keep my animals healthy and in tip top condition.

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Originally Posted by Lewdogg3

That's not exactly whats being said, more so that one should search and read up on things more before jumping the gun and posting.

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Believe me, I did read up and searched. But none of the other threads/posts applied to my situation, where there was one 4ft fem with 3 other 2ft males/fems in a large tank without enough hides, shruberry, and that lacked an adequate humidity/temperature system.

They've been doing fine for now though, if it's too much of an issue for me to create a new thread in this forum, asking for your knowlege, then just don't reply. I'll try my best to keep my snakes healthy.

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Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

All I have to say is they are your snakes and do with them as you please. Just keep in mind the added risk of multiple snakes together. But I would definetely get a larger cage with lots of hides so everyone can be happy. :D

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Do you think it'd be ok if I just separated the largest snake since the other 3 are about the same size?

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Originally Posted by Lewdogg3

I wouldn't keep them together, That's because I want to make sure I am doing everything I possibly can to keep my animals healthy and in tip top condition.

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Thanks, I'll try to get this fixed asap.

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Originally Posted by midtx350z

They've been doing fine for now though, if it's too much of an issue for me to create a new thread in this forum, asking for your knowledge, then just don't reply. I'll try my best to keep my snakes healthy.

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Whoa... easy there Tonto, I wasn't trying to rustle your feathers. I'm just saying most of the time when these threads get started its because someone didn't do the research first. It's always good to ask for help if you can't find exactly what your looking for.

I don't think your situations different, It all comes down to keeping snakes together. That's the bottom line of the thread correct? If it is then what everyone has told you and what you have read are all good advice when it comes to NOT keeping them together. I wouldn't think of doing it personally. If you try it more power to you just beware of the problems that can occur.

If you start to notice anything that's out of the ordinary of seems fishy then make sure you fix it asap.

Actually guys, a tad more attention to detail, or perhaps more clarity on my part, would clue you in to the fact that I'm not now inquiring about snakes and keeping them together, frankly, that's been beaten to death for now, but in this dominance/heirarchigal thing that has been mentioned.

I have seen it in lizards. I have seen it in tortoises. I have seen in birds. I have not seen it in snakes. This interests me.

It has been said in this very thread that it has been stated by "several breeders" that this occurs when snakes are housed together.

I'd like to discuss this. If it's true, I have learned a new thing. That would please me. If it's not true, how many of you are or were already, saying that it was without one single bit of evidence?

So, a couple of you spoke up about this. Please, share what you know, where it came from, and what methods the conclusion was reached by.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Actually guys, a tad more attention to detail, or perhaps more clarity on my part, would clue you in to the fact that I'm not now inquiring about snakes and keeping them together, frankly, that's been beaten to death for now, but in this dominance/heirarchigal thing that has been mentioned.

I have seen it in lizards. I have seen it in tortoises. I have seen in birds. I have not seen it in snakes. This interests me.

It has been said in this very thread that it has been stated by "several breeders" that this occurs when snakes are housed together.

I'd like to discuss this. If it's true, I have learned a new thing. That would please me. If it's not true, how many of you are or were already, saying that it was without one single bit of evidence?

So, a couple of you spoke up about this. Please, share what you know, where it came from, and what methods the conclusion was reached by.

Thank you.

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I've never heard of this, I'd like to know as well.

One ball, one cage... that's the only way I would ever do it. I just don't see that cage housing 4 ball pythons as being a healthy choice. They are forced to crowd one another and if one want's it's space it can't get it.

I've heard the "one snake is trying to dominate the other" spiel before but I don't believe it. Competing snakes show they are competing. One snake will continuosly harass the other one. This is easy to see in male snakes of species that perform combat rituals. That is one snake trying to dominate the other. Fro my view, two snakes "cuddling" (ugh it's not cuddling though) under the same hide is simply two snakes attempting to use the same space, at the same time because it is the optimal place for them to be at that given moment. They don't necessarily have to be dominating each other for it, they are just forced to sit with each other if they both want the optimal spot. And in my eyes that is just one of many reasons I keep my solitary species.... solitary. Other concerns include accidental breedings, stress on the animals for being forced to cohabitate with others, contact with other snake's feces which can easily lead to disease/parasite transmission, and feeding issues.

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Originally Posted by Lewdogg3

Whoa... easy there Tonto, I wasn't trying to rustle your feathers. I'm just saying most of the time when these threads get started its because someone didn't do the research first. It's always good to ask for help if you can't find exactly what your looking for.

I don't think your situations different, It all comes down to keeping snakes together. That's the bottom line of the thread correct? If it is then what everyone has told you and what you have read are all good advice when it comes to NOT keeping them together. I wouldn't think of doing it personally. If you try it more power to you just beware of the problems that can occur.

If you start to notice anything that's out of the ordinary of seems fishy then make sure you fix it asap.

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Thanks, Tonto. I'll fix it asap. In the meantime, what's an inexpensive way to keep the humidity up in that huge tank?

I took everything out and took a pic of all teh snakes, notice Cleo in the strike position. :mad:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7069/dsc03714.jpg

I didnt notice that the largest is a female? You may want to seperate her unless your looking for babies. But If you see any signs of her being gravid I Would remove her from the others until after she lays and gets back up to weight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So, a couple of you spoke up about this. Please, share what you know, where it came from, and what methods the conclusion was reached by.

Thank you.

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I reached my conclusion via logic. Two animals sharing a space does provide for the possibility of dominance issues.

While I can't scientifically document its existence I can choose to eliminate it from my husbandry habits.

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Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

I didnt notice that the largest is a female? You may want to seperate her unless your looking for babies. But If you see any signs of her being gravid I Would remove her from the others until after she lays and gets back up to weight.

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Can the small males get her pregnant? Do you think she may already be pregnant? They've been together for a few months. :-S

Male bp's can breed starting at around 350g, which still a small snake. It depends on the male though, not all would breed at that size. I personally house them all separately, and that's just my choice. No need to have scientific backup for me, it just makes sense. It's up to each individual keeper to make that housing decision. You WILL end up with babies at some point in the near future. That may sound like fun until you try to find homes for normal males and such. I don't know your situation, so that may work for you.
On a side note, that little reduced guy on the top left in that pic is a smoker!
Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

I reached my conclusion via logic. Two animals sharing a space does provide for the possibility of dominance issues.

While I can't scientifically document its existence I can choose to eliminate it from my husbandry habits.

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Cool. That's a very mammalian point of view. Are you using other mammalian based arguments for keeping?

My dog does better when I let him sleep in my room than when I make him sleep outside. I can see this in his demeanor, appetite and general attitude. I suppose I should, therefore, start sleeping with my snake.

Logically speaking, it's true.

So, still looking for FACTS, afterall there are, unless the posters were just flat out lying, "several breeders" or was that BIG breeders, out there who have said this is true.

If you can post it in public, you can back it up. Or retract it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

The great thing about this hobby is that there is no exact science about how to do things. I myself still firmly believe that housing one snake per enclosure is the best for the snake's health.

It eliminates many variables that may cause an animal not to thrive to the fullest. While we may not be able to prove dominance issues we can certainly eliminate it from our equation if we choose to do so.

With that said you will find many people that have housed snakes together for many years without a problem. It has its risks (illness transfer, possible dominance issues) but it can be done. Its up to the keeper to make a informed decision on what route they want to take.

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Just to be fair, let's not forget this post. No need to back that up with scientific research. It's his choice and opinion which is what the OP was asking for at the start of this thread, I believe.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

Male bp's can breed starting at around 350g, which still a small snake. It depends on the male though, not all would breed at that size. I personally house them all separately, and that's just my choice. No need to have scientific backup for me, it just makes sense. It's up to each individual keeper to make that housing decision. You WILL end up with babies at some point in the near future. That may sound like fun until you try to find homes for normal males and such. I don't know your situation, so that may work for you.
On a side note, that little reduced guy on the top left in that pic is a smoker!
Good luck!

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Smoker?

Please explain?

Just meant that it's a very nice looking snake...as in "smokin!"

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Cuddling is actually them competing for dominance. Usually this causes the dominated snake to go off feed. I am actually rather surprised that all of your snakes are eating but that still doesn't make it okay to house them together in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by midtx350z

I've heard that from different breeders.

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Keeping secrets from your fellow keepers in just not nice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Actually guys, a tad more attention to detail, or perhaps more clarity on my part, would clue you in to the fact that I'm not now inquiring about snakes and keeping them together, frankly, that's been beaten to death for now, but in this dominance/heirarchigal thing that has been mentioned.

I have seen it in lizards. I have seen it in tortoises. I have seen in birds. I have not seen it in snakes. This interests me.

It has been said in this very thread that it has been stated by "several breeders" that this occurs when snakes are housed together.

I'd like to discuss this. If it's true, I have learned a new thing. That would please me. If it's not true, how many of you are or were already, saying that it was without one single bit of evidence?

So, a couple of you spoke up about this. Please, share what you know, where it came from, and what methods the conclusion was reached by.

Thank you.

---

It would be great if there was some sort of experiment or study done to see if there was in fact dominance, but I am certainly not going to house my snakes together just to find out.

I am going to guess most people who have enough snakes to do this type of experiment wouldn't want to.

Just a few days ago there was a thread where someone was keeping two hatchlings together. One was eating perfectly fine, but the other had not taken a meal. He separated them and within 2 days the non-eater started eating again. To me this points to "dominance".

As for breeding, yes the smaller males can breed the larger female.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Cool. That's a very mammalian point of view. Are you using other mammalian based arguments for keeping?

My dog does better when I let him sleep in my room than when I make him sleep outside. I can see this in his demeanor, appetite and general attitude. I suppose I should, therefore, start sleeping with my snake.

Logically speaking, it's true.

So, still looking for FACTS, afterall there are, unless the posters were just flat out lying, "several breeders" or was that BIG breeders, out there who have said this is true.

If you can post it in public, you can back it up. Or retract it.

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are you a politician? if not, you should be. really.

i'm starting to appreciate your point of view though. if many people say it, it must be true, right?

you could be a little more tactful in your approach to prove a point though.


ime, i've never seen multiples attempt to dominate each other. as mentioned earlier, i've noted from observation that multiples will share a hide if that is the optimal spot for them at that time. i've never witnessed any fighting or attempts at domination from housing together. sure, it's generally accepted that individual housing is best. however, it's also pretty much common practice for sellers and shops to house together, several of one species per habitat. i've never heard of a dominance issue with bp's from multiple housing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waltah!

Male bp's can breed starting at around 350g, which still a small snake. It depends on the male though, not all would breed at that size. I personally house them all separately, and that's just my choice. No need to have scientific backup for me, it just makes sense. It's up to each individual keeper to make that housing decision. You WILL end up with babies at some point in the near future. That may sound like fun until you try to find homes for normal males and such. I don't know your situation, so that may work for you.
On a side note, that little reduced guy on the top left in that pic is a smoker!
Good luck!

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Thanks!

Can you tell if any of them are morphs? We were told the big girl is a pastel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

It would be great if there was some sort of experiment or study done to see if there was in fact dominance, but I am certainly not going to house my snakes together just to find out.

I am going to guess most people who have enough snakes to do this type of experiment wouldn't want to.

Just a few days ago there was a thread where someone was keeping two hatchlings together. One was eating perfectly fine, but the other had not taken a meal. He separated them and within 2 days the non-eater started eating again. To me this points to "dominance".

As for breeding, yes the smaller males can breed the larger female.

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And an issue with the pecking order would be the ONLY possibility that this snake may have not been eating while housed with another?

It's age, how much yolk it may or may not have still had, what food was offered and the manner in which said food was given, I suppose none of those things could have had any bearing whatsoever on that little guys firing up.

Were you there to see that both babies were treated identically? I ask not to say I doubt your word, I have no reason to. I ask because from what I have seen once a snake is singled out for special attention, like the one that was not eating, they are often treated differently than those who need no extra attention. Be it an extra offering of food, different lighting, temps, humidity, duration of offer, many variables come in to play simply because that snake "needs" extra care. It's not a bad thing, but if both were treated exactly the same and they reacted exactly the same then there may be grounds for a theory that X equals Y. But, if you don't know they were treated exactly the same, your theory is faulted before you have begun and any results will also be invalid.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Keeping secrets from your fellow keepers in just not nice.

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I'm going by what i've read on several websites, that's it. I didn't start this thread to discuss snakes cuddling. Start your own thread. :D

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Originally Posted by midtx350z

Thanks!

Can you tell if any of them are morphs? We were told the big girl is a pastel.

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All normals! But they are all very beautiful and unique!

As for the whole dominance issue, wilomn, maybe you would like to start a discussion thread? It is a very interesting topic with basically no facts to back it up (as far as I know).

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Originally Posted by midtx350z

Thanks!

Can you tell if any of them are morphs? We were told the big girl is a pastel.

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All appear to be normals. The big girl is not a pastel.

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Originally Posted by Ben Biscy

a
ime, i've never seen multiples attempt to dominate each other. as mentioned earlier, i've noted from observation that multiples will share a hide if that is the optimal spot for them at that time. i've never witnessed any fighting or attempts at domination from housing together. sure, it's generally accepted that individual housing is best. however, it's also pretty much common practice for sellers and shops to house together, several of one species per habitat. i've never heard of a dominance issue with bp's from multiple housing.

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This doesn't mean necessarily that two snakes shouldn't be kept together.

It means that not enough hides were made available.

Multiple snakes can be housed together - but several things should be considered:

- the species of the snakes involved
- the ages of the snakes
- the size of the enclosure
- the number of hides available in the various thermoregulation zones

There are several species of snakes where breeders and keepers, oftentimes, house them together.

Just because it's easier to house them independently doesn't mean you have to.

Would I recommend housing multiple animals together? No. But not because of some behavioral study that has never been conducted or for the propagation of some internet conventional wisdom. I recommend it only because it is EASIER to house animals singly.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

Just meant that it's a very nice looking snake...as in "smokin!"

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In that case I like the bottum left :P

He's a smoker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

My dog does better when I let him sleep in my room than when I make him sleep outside. I can see this in his demeanor, appetite and general attitude. I suppose I should, therefore, start sleeping with my snake.

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If its your prerogative to do so by all means; be sure to check your local laws, I'm not sure sleeping with your snake is legal everywhere.

If you meant you want to start sleeping with your snake in your room then I would say your logic is flawed. Comparing dogs and snakes are like comparing apples and oranges.

You don't have to agree with my logic but its worked very well for me so far. Nor am I saying anyone else should take my logic for more than it is; MY logic.