Good "companions" for a burm?

I'm building a custom enclosure for the future home of a baby albino burm here: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=94172 the enclosure is a very vertical enclosure and I want to put something in that will add a lot of interest to my enclosure. My friend was thinking a few brightly colored tree frogs and whatnot. I would love to do that, but I would like to know if any could hurt the snake if he got hungry and decided to eat one (he's a baby right now), but I would like to have a bit of diversity in there since it's a big enclosure and such a prominent display in my house. What would you guys recommend that is relatively hardy, long-lived, and cheap that is also non-intrusive to the snake that would make my enclosure a point of interest?

p.s. Forgive my noobishness, I'm still learning the terms and nomenclature of snake ownership so it's hard to search for relevant topics.

One animal, one enclosure. That is all. :)

Your snake may be best by it self. Maybe another burm. You'd have to separate them at feeding time.

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Originally Posted by Jason Bowden

Your snake may be best by it self. Maybe another burm. You'd have to separate them at feeding time.

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I disagree. Two snakes in one cage is only a good idea when breeding..

One animal, one cage. Tree frogs probably would be eaten. A very expensive meal at that.
With multiple animals parasites, RIs, and other bugs can be spread, causing multiple vet bills. Cannibalism is possible as well.

I'd like to see this enclosure, it sounds nice! If your good at building, you could think about putting enclosures in the enclosure. I've always wanted a very large enclosure with mini-enclosures hanging on the glass wall will small frogs or amphibians (or even fish).

Just an idea. :gj:

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Cannibalism is possible as well.

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Does anyone know of a single instance of burmese python cannibalism that was not directly related to food scented snake being put in with other burms and then being eaten?

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I'd like to see this enclosure, it sounds nice! If your good at building, you could think about putting enclosures in the enclosure. I've always wanted a very large enclosure with mini-enclosures hanging on the glass wall will small frogs or amphibians (or even fish).

Just an idea. :gj:

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Check the link in the original post, that's where my build progress is.


At what point (growth wise) do things like tree frogs cease to be a potential food item to snakes? Like I said, I would like to have something else in there besides one snake. Maybe I'm just thinking too big.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Does anyone know of a single instance of burmese python cannibalism that was not directly related to food scented snake being put in with other burms and then being eaten?

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Do you really care or are you just trolling again?
I can hear it now, "Jesus, the troll's back out from under the bridge again!"
Why do you post only to antagonize? Ever heard of Google?

I checked out the link to the cage construction. It looks like it should turn out really nice. It seems as though it would be suited for something more arboreal such as a carpet. Nicely done, and a cool idea.

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Originally Posted by orphan

Check the link in the original post, that's where my build progress is.


At what point (growth wise) do things like tree frogs cease to be a potential food item to snakes? Like I said, I would like to have something else in there besides one snake. Maybe I'm just thinking too big.

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Once they are 40 feet plus you can add some extra animals to the tank.

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Originally Posted by Blizzarddude

Do you really care or are you just trolling again?

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Good question, my the-earth-is-flat believing pimple, er pal.

I do care.

I suspect from you post that you have no knowledge of any cannabalism either but that you too have been passing around this rumor as fact.

If I'm wrong, let me know. It won't be the first time. I simply do not know myself, and I've produced several hundred which were often housed together in small groups, know many people who have produced many many burms, and cannot think of a single instance of cannabalism that was not directly caused by feeding and being returned to a group still smelling of prey.

So, when you're done whizzing in your wheaties, either fess up that you have no proof, or show me that I'm wrong.

I'm good either way.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Once they are 40 feet plus you can add some extra animals to the tank.

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40 feet huh?

Reading some TFH manuals there, are ya?

Oh wait, you only pass on facts, that's right. I forgot since you seem to be doing the same thing in that other thread I'm trolling in.

So, 40 foot cannabalistic burms huh?

Very cool stuff. Very cool.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Once they are 40 feet plus you can add some extra animals to the tank.

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hahahaha ok, so... what? That'll be about two weeks in? lol


No, I'm serious. I just want to add some extra interest to the tank. Looks like I'll be the brave soul to try it out. I'm thinking a couple of tree frogs in there and just see what happens. If they live...great. If they disappear and the snake has a couple of lumps in it's belly...lesson learned.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Good question, my the-earth-is-flat believing pimple, er pal.

I do care.

I suspect from you post that you have no knowledge of any cannabalism either but that you too have been passing around this rumor as fact.

If I'm wrong, let me know. It won't be the first time. I simply do not know myself, and I've produced several hundred which were often housed together in small groups, know many people who have produced many many burms, and cannot think of a single instance of cannabalism that was not directly caused by feeding and being returned to a group still smelling of prey.

So, when you're done whizzing in your wheaties, either fess up that you have no proof, or show me that I'm wrong.

I'm good either way.

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Originally Posted by Blizzarddude

Do you really care or are you just trolling again?
I can hear it now, "Jesus, the troll's back out from under the bridge again!"
Why do you post only to antagonize? Ever heard of Google?

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What does this have to do with my knowledge? The only thing I'm seeing here is a bully, one who likes to feel better than others, who has a know it all attitude and probably does so to make up for his real life, or lack thereof.
Do you know why most people don't reply to you?
They have you on ignore. You should go away, take your animosity to a site where other dips run rampant and give each other e-wedgies all day.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

40 feet huh?

Reading some TFH manuals there, are ya?

Oh wait, you only pass on facts, that's right. I forgot since you seem to be doing the same thing in that other thread I'm trolling in.

So, 40 foot cannabalistic burms huh?

Very cool stuff. Very cool.

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Wait... are you saying that burms dont get get to 40 feet? Oh...I guess you cant put them with frogs at all then...

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Originally Posted by orphan

hahahaha ok, so... what? That'll be about two weeks in? lol


No, I'm serious. I just want to add some extra interest to the tank. Looks like I'll be the brave soul to try it out. I'm thinking a couple of tree frogs in there and just see what happens. If they live...great. If they disappear and the snake has a couple of lumps in it's belly...lesson learned.

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You CANNOT put a burm with frogs, plain and simple. Its not about them just disappearing, it sounds like you just want to put two cool animals together. Think of the snake and its health. Plus the frogs health for the matter, they have way different housing requirements.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Wait... are you saying that burms dont get get to 40 feet? Oh...I guess you cant put them with frogs at all then...



You CANNOT put a burm with frogs, plain and simple. Its not about them just disappearing, it sounds like you just want to put two cool animals together. Think of the snake and its health. Plus the frogs health for the matter, they have way different housing requirements.

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So now there are no frogs in Asia?

My goodness, I am truly surprised. Everything I've ever read or seen stated that there were certainly frogs there. I even know people personally who have said that they themselves had seen frogs in Asia.

I guess you just can't trust anyone.

OP, your frogs may or may not survive. The snake may or may not eat them. Frogs aren't the best diet for burms and there is a chance of some transfer of organisms that would negatively affect your snake.

Plus, a lot of treefrogs are nocturnal. You'll never see them. It sounds really easy, and it is, but the effect you're looking for may be missing.

If it's activity you want in there, fill it with frogs and geckos.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Does anyone know of a single instance of burmese python cannibalism that was not directly related to food scented snake being put in with other burms and then being eaten?

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There was a personal incident of mine. I haven't heard any official reports or anything of the such.
My incident involved an animal expo and finding a cage with a young very lumpy and non-moving burmese python. There were two burm labels on the cage, and one snake. When asking the seller, they said the other was sold. I decided not to press the issue.

That is the only thing I have encountered with burms and cannibalism, as I don't know too much about them. You are the expert on these guys Wes, so I'm definitely not saying your wrong. That was just my small input from my (very little) personal experience.

Could poison dart frogs pose potential issues to the burm if ingested though? I thought I remember reading that they lose most of their poisonous secretions because of what they eat in captivity. Just wondering.
Edit: Noticed Wes's post. So, that answers my question.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So now there are no frogs in Asia?

My goodness, I am truly surprised. Everything I've ever read or seen stated that there were certainly frogs there. I even know people personally who have said that they themselves had seen frogs in Asia.

.

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Oh yes there are frogs in asia, I do not recall saying there wasn't?

Not that treefrogs that I see around here in petshops come from asia, Costa Rica in Central America maybe.... Green eyed tree frogs need 80-99% humidity, im not sure if burms need that much... But again you know alot more about burms than I do so if you say they can be housed together I would take your word for it.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

There was a personal incident of mine. I haven't heard any official reports or anything of the such.
My incident involved an animal expo and finding a cage with a young very lumpy and non-moving burmese python. There were two burm labels on the cage, and one snake. When asking the seller, they said the other was sold. I decided not to press the issue.

That is the only thing I have encountered with burms and cannibalism, as I don't know too much about them. You are the expert on these guys Wes, so I'm definitely not saying your wrong. That was just my small input from my (very little) personal experience.

Could poison dart frogs pose potential issues to the burm if ingested though? I thought I remember reading that they lose most of their poisonous secretions because of what they eat in captivity. Just wondering.
Edit: Noticed Wes's post. So, that answers my question.

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I do have a fair amount of experience but am not an expert. An incident such as you saw was far outside the norm. Comparing a show environment and all the stress involved does not have much in common with home care.

I don't doubt that you saw an instance of cannabalism. I also have no doubt that we don't know why it happened. At most shows I go to they sell feeders. Who knows what smells may have been transferred to one of those snakes by a prospective purchaser?

I really was serious though. I don't know a single instance, well until now, that was not food induced.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So now there are no frogs in Asia?

My goodness, I am truly surprised. Everything I've ever read or seen stated that there were certainly frogs there. I even know people personally who have said that they themselves had seen frogs in Asia.

I guess you just can't trust anyone.

OP, your frogs may or may not survive. The snake may or may not eat them. Frogs aren't the best diet for burms and there is a chance of some transfer of organisms that would negatively affect your snake.

Plus, a lot of treefrogs are nocturnal. You'll never see them. It sounds really easy, and it is, but the effect you're looking for may be missing.

If it's activity you want in there, fill it with frogs and geckos.

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Thank you for your well informed and understanding post. That's the kind of response I was looking for. Although it doesn't answer my question completely, it does reinforce my thought that snakes encounter non-prey items in the wild. :)

What I'm looking for in my enclosure is an interesting collaboration of plants and animals like a vivarium. If some are nocturnal and others are diurnal then so be it. It will make the enclosure that much better in my opinion. I would just like to know that if the snake chose to turn on it's "cage-mates", would it hurt the snake? I'm not planning on getting poison dart frogs or anything, just some brightly colored tree frogs that could hold their own.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Oh yes there are frogs in asia, I do not recall saying there wasn't?

Not that treefrogs that I see around here in petshops come from asia, Costa Rica in Central America maybe.... Green eyed tree frogs need 80-99% humidity, im not sure if burms need that much... But again you know alot more about burms than I do so if you say they can be housed together I would take your word for it.

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Ok.... so now there ARE frogs in Asia again. Phew.

Now, bear with me here. If there are indeed frogs, as you have now assured us that there are, and there are burmese pythons, and both of them are living in the same part of Asia, would not then the cohabitation of them not only be possible, but in fact, already occurring? And if in fact it is already occurring, does this not prove that it can indeed, should one wish to, be duplicated in captivity?

You have ASSumed that frogs of an innappropriate environmental compatibility would be purchased from "pet stores."

Just because that is what you would do, does not mean the OP would. Maybe he knows a breeder. Maybe he knows an importer. Maybe he'd go to shows until he found just what he needed.

Do you see where I'm going with you and your "facts" that are about as factual as your love for me is undying?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Ok.... so now there ARE frogs in Asia again. Phew.

Now, bear with me here. If there are indeed frogs, as you have now assured us that there are, and there are burmese pythons, and both of them are living in the same part of Asia, would not then the cohabitation of them not only be possible, but in fact, already occurring? And if in fact it is already occurring, does this not prove that it can indeed, should one wish to, be duplicated in captivity?

You have ASSumed that frogs of an innappropriate environmental compatibility would be purchased from "pet stores."

Just because that is what you would do, does not mean the OP would. Maybe he knows a breeder. Maybe he knows an importer. Maybe he'd go to shows until he found just what he needed.

Do you see where I'm going with you and your "facts" that are about as factual as your love for me is undying?

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Oh yes my love I see where you are going, but from that point of veiw, could the person just be looking for pretty frogs to house with his pretty snake? But then maybe there are pretty pretty in asia that he can find, though if that were the case me myself as a fact would( Not what he would do... as you would say) look up frogs in asia that I liked and then ask. Really Wes, where are we getting with this?

To the OP, are there any importers that you know?

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Oh yes my love I see where you are going, but from that point of veiw, could the person just be looking for pretty frogs to house with his pretty snake? But then maybe there are pretty pretty in asia that he can find, though if that were the case me myself as a fact would( Not what he would do... as you would say) look up frogs in asia that I liked and then ask. Really Wes, where are we getting with this?

To the OP, are there any importers that you know?

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Matt, whether on purpose or just bad luck, you have missed my point.

Listen guys, I don't want to start a flame war here or anything. I just want to provide my new pet with a lot more than a glorified tupper-ware bowl to live in for the length of his natural life. That's my first and foremost priority. My second thought is to make it a beautiful and interesting focal point in my living room since I took out the fireplace to do it. I plan on using captive bred "secondary" animals if possible which theoretically should cut down on transferance of parasites and disease. That's all I'm asking. If it will hurt the snake in any way, I don't want to do it. If it will hurt the other animals I plan on putting in there, I don't want to do it. Hell, I'm just coming to terms with the fact that other animals have to die (feeder mice/rats/eventually rabbits) in order for this snake to live a long and healthy life.

You do know that if you feed that burm well it will outgrow that cage in about a year, right?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You do know that if you feed that burm well it will outgrow that cage in about a year, right?

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:8: This was a fun read! OP Good luck with your cage:gj:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You do know that if you feed that burm well it will outgrow that cage in about a year, right?

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According to the general consensus, you want an enclosure at least half the length of the snake. I'm looking at cage a little over 4ft wide, 3 1/2ft deep, and 5 1/2 ft tall (not that makes any difference with a burm) with a large pool area to cool off in and soak. He should be fine for a while. When the time comes that he needs to upgrade, I'll build a bigger enclosure for him in the spare bedroom.

Someone recommended a carpet python in an earlier post on this thread, i totally agree. Orphan have you concidered a semi arboreal snake instead? Just a thought concidering its got more vertical space. Again, good luck.

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Originally Posted by juddb

Someone recommended a carpet python in an earlier post on this thread, i totally agree. Orphan have you concidered a semi arboreal snake instead? Just a thought concidering its got more vertical space. Again, good luck.

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Thanks for that. My breeder has wanted to get into carpet pythons. Maybe I should try it out?

I mentioned those on mr2oc. They're beautiful, and seem like they're pretty easy to take care of.

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Originally Posted by orphan

Thanks for that. My breeder has wanted to get into carpet pythons. Maybe I should try it out?

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You could build some nice rock shelving and branches for more of a viewing animal.

Burmese pythons get larger than 8ft, I know that much.. A carpet python would be a much more permanent animal to put in that enclosure. (Plus, I think they're prettier if you get a jaguar).

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

You could build some nice rock shelving and branches for more of a viewing animal.

Burmese pythons get larger than 8ft, I know that much.. A carpet python would be a much more permanent animal to put in that enclosure. (Plus, I think they're prettier if you get a jaguar).

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I'm well aware that they get larger than 8ft but he would have a lot of space in the bottom of the cage (square footage wise). Like I said, if he is noticeably constrained in his environment after all this is said and done, I'm not afraid to build a bigger enclosure.

Hi,

I like the fact that (in you thread on the enclosure ) you have already started planning where to put his next cage when he gets larger. :gj:

I have no experience to offer on anything that could share an enclosure sadly. How would you check frog species for toxicity to other reptiles out of curiosity?

But I do have an alternative occupant for your consideration once the burm has upgraded - the red tailed green rat snake.

Their temprament might not always be the best out there but they are large, active, arboreal and absolutely flippin gorgeous. :O

Here are some pic links I found via google images;

pic 1

pic 2

pic 3

Wes,

When you mentioned the scent of food possibly causing problems with keeping groups of burms how do you make sure the snake being returned no longer smells of the prey it just ate?

Is it as simple as a spray and rub down?

Just wondering how you do things of that nature with a large constrictor that might be waiting for more rabbits or whatever. :confused:


dr del

in my crystal ball, I see frogs covered in poop. I see frogs with skin sores from getting drenched in pee. I see humidity wars and temperature wars. I see a burm much too big for its cage. I see frogs escaping during the burm-wrestling segment of cage cleaning day. I see smooshed frogs when the burm goes exploring.

this troubles me.


I really recommend one snake, one cage. That cage would be PERFECT for a carpet. A diurnal semiarboreal would be great at meetiing your need for 'interest' like a large rat snake.

A good companion for a burm would be another burm during breeding season! Best of luck with the frogs though

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Originally Posted by dr del

Wes,

When you mentioned the scent of food possibly causing problems with keeping groups of burms how do you make sure the snake being returned no longer smells of the prey it just ate?

Is it as simple as a spray and rub down?

Just wondering how you do things of that nature with a large constrictor that might be waiting for more rabbits or whatever. :confused:


dr del

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With the little guys a good wash is usually good enough. With the big guys I've had it was rare but occasionally the scent of prey would be strong enough to elicit a feeding response when the snake was returned to the cage. The big guys are smart enough to know they can't eat their cagemates and generally stop trying after a short time. Trying to seperate them can be fun but once they get the flavor of their room mate through to the brain they let go. I've seen this in boas and python adults.

Going off my limited experience caring for snakes over 12' in length, the only thing worse than wrestling one large, strong, hungry burm out of its cage for cleaning/feeding would be wrestling one large, strong, hungry burm out of a naturalistic enclosure set up with frogs, their insect prey, and other material commonly used to successfully keep frogs.

I'll be blunt, and no offense, but this is a horrible idea.

Fishmommy also mentioned the sanitary issue. Have you ever seen a, 8'+ burmese python drop a load? You'd be completely breaking down the enclosure every other week. That includes washing or replacing the moss and soils you use for to keep the frogs happy.

If you are down for all of that, go ahead. I think 99% of people out there would abandon the setup after a few rounds of maintenance.

I would recommend that you continue to raise the snake, and see exactly what goes into it once he starts to get some size on him. I think you'll understand at that point.

Why not stick with really cool plants, maybe vines? Then you could have awesome live plants in the cage, without worrying about escaping/dead/toxic frogs.

Personally, I think the carpet python would look great and would use the arboreal section(and you'd still be able to put loads of plants in). You could build in spots to hold the plant pots so you could remove them for cleaning/watering/repotting.

Last I heard, plants wouldn't be eaten or terrorized, won't escape, and won't attack the snake. Unless Wilomn wants to object that there might not be plants in Asia or that the plants might be scented with prey items and be eaten. You may end up with a vegetarian snake, which PETA would jump ALL over!

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Going off my limited experience caring for snakes over 12' in length, the only thing worse than wrestling one large, strong, hungry burm out of its cage for cleaning/feeding would be wrestling one large, strong, hungry burm out of a naturalistic enclosure set up with frogs, their insect prey, and other material commonly used to successfully keep frogs.

I'll be blunt, and no offense, but this is a horrible idea.

Fishmommy also mentioned the sanitary issue. Have you ever seen a, 8'+ burmese python drop a load? You'd be completely breaking down the enclosure every other week. That includes washing or replacing the moss and soils you use for to keep the frogs happy.

If you are down for all of that, go ahead. I think 99% of people out there would abandon the setup after a few rounds of maintenance.

I would recommend that you continue to raise the snake, and see exactly what goes into it once he starts to get some size on him. I think you'll understand at that point.

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I'm going to have to agree with you there. Plus, I thought of something else. Tree frogs make noise. I'm not a big fan of noise in the house especially in the twilight hours.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Why not stick with really cool plants, maybe vines? Then you could have awesome live plants in the cage, without worrying about escaping/dead/toxic frogs.

Personally, I think the carpet python would look great and would use the arboreal section(and you'd still be able to put loads of plants in). You could build in spots to hold the plant pots so you could remove them for cleaning/watering/repotting.

Last I heard, plants wouldn't be eaten or terrorized, won't escape, and won't attack the snake. Unless Wilomn wants to object that there might not be plants in Asia or that the plants might be scented with prey items and be eaten. You may end up with a vegetarian snake, which PETA would jump ALL over!

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:gj:

Keeping in mind that I know VERY little about burms, I have a suggestion to put in for your consideration. I don't know how much a burm is going to climb and use the vertical space of the cage. (Correct me if I am wrong here) If that is the case, why not install a single sheet of plexigless across the top 1-2 feet of the cage? Said plexiglass could act as a divider, allowing you to put frogs or geckos or something that doesn't require addition heat into the vertical space, without the sanitary/safety issues which everyone else has already brought up. If would essentially be like having two enclosures in that space, and you could remove the plexiglass later when the burm outgrows the enclosure and you get something else.

It may be a horrible idea, other people will have to comment. Just something to consider before throwing some poor little froggies in with a burm.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Last I heard, plants wouldn't be eaten or terrorized, won't escape, and won't attack the snake. Unless Wilomn wants to object that there might not be plants in Asia or that the plants might be scented with prey items and be eaten. You may end up with a vegetarian snake, which PETA would jump ALL over!

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HAHAHAHA! :gj:

actually, I think the argument might involve the fact that you have no proof that plants won't escape or attack the snake. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF???

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

HAHAHAHA! :gj:

actually, I think the argument might involve the fact that you have no proof that plants won't escape or attack the snake. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF???

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You must have never seen the documentary called "Little Shop of Horrors"?

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Last I heard, plants wouldn't be eaten or terrorized, won't escape, and won't attack the snake. Unless Wilomn wants to object that there might not be plants in Asia or that the plants might be scented with prey items and be eaten. You may end up with a vegetarian snake, which PETA would jump ALL over!

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Now now Wolfy, I didn't start this there are no frogs in Asia stuff so don't blame me for that bit of stupidity.

As far as live plants, some are toxic. Not many and a bit of simple research will tell which are which.

The vine thing is a fine idea but I bet you've never kept large snakes. NO plants will survive being steamrolled the way a really big one could.

Also, what if the poor guy got one of those flesh eating plants or some other similar species that uses scent to lure prey, animal prey, and it ate that? Hmmmm????

Anyway, back to seriousness, live plants and large snakes look good for about an hour. Then you have smushed plants and a snake who's cage needs cleaning.

The frogs really wouldn't be a problem for the snake, especially once it was past the 4-5 foot range. Again, the simple act of moving about the cage may injure the frog or frogs, but I hardly think the snake would be seeking them out. Also, many tree frogs will climb as high as they can which would be out of range of the snake. They also like to find nooks and crannies that would also be inaccessible to the snake.

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

HAHAHAHA! :gj:

actually, I think the argument might involve the fact that you have no proof that plants won't escape or attack the snake. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF???

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You know, FM, no one has taken a stand on plants, no one has postulated a theory about keeping them and the possible affects on the snake.

Had they, and had they done so by merely regurgitating unsubstantiated rumor, I would most assuredly have asked for proof. For two reasons.

First, if it's out there, I'd like to know. I am always seeking to enhance what little knowledge I have managed to compile.

Second, what's the point of puking up crap over and over so often that it's believed merely because its so often repeated?

Wouldn't you rather know that what you think is true is or is not factual?

I prefer not to pass on what I do not know. I know that puts me in a minority at least in this thread, but I'll do it my way or not at all. If that bothers you, any of you, use the ignore function.

it doesn't bother me a bit
it's quite hilarious and usually informative

I question assumptions and produce proofs for a living....I actually agree with you 100%. but it's still funny in it's predictability, I still roll my eyes a lot, and I still hear circus music in my head every time you post. but yeah, you're usually right.

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

it doesn't bother me a bit
it's quite hilarious and usually informative

I question assumptions and produce proofs for a living....I actually agree with you 100%. but it's still funny in it's predictability, I still roll my eyes a lot, and I still hear circus music in my head every time you post. but yeah, you're usually right.

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Excellent well then, things are preceding precisely as I had planned

Muahahahahahahahahahahah

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Originally Posted by PythonChick

Keeping in mind that I know VERY little about burms, I have a suggestion to put in for your consideration. I don't know how much a burm is going to climb and use the vertical space of the cage. (Correct me if I am wrong here) If that is the case, why not install a single sheet of plexigless across the top 1-2 feet of the cage? Said plexiglass could act as a divider, allowing you to put frogs or geckos or something that doesn't require addition heat into the vertical space, without the sanitary/safety issues which everyone else has already brought up. If would essentially be like having two enclosures in that space, and you could remove the plexiglass later when the burm outgrows the enclosure and you get something else.

It may be a horrible idea, other people will have to comment. Just something to consider before throwing some poor little froggies in with a burm.

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This is what I was thinking, I don't really think a burm would use all that space up top. I would split that enclosure up by the top where the mantle is. In the lower area, put a semiaboreal snake like a carpet that will use the perches and paint the background to give it the feel of the lower area of a tree? Then in the top area, fill it with a lot of foliage so its like the top of the tree and put in an eye catching display snake like a red or yellow amazon tree boa. Two animals that will get the most out of such an enclosure.

I was thinking that the vines and plants would be higher up than the burm would attempt to reach. Well, that and yanking Wilomn's chain cause I never get to.. lol.

I'm a huge fan of pointing out that you can't prove a negative. You can't prove I have not kept burms. I can't prove I have not kept burms. I CAN prove I've kept balls, but I can't prove I have NOT kept balls. (Unless you use "beyond a reasonable doubt")

Plant COULD climb down and eat the burmese. After all, I once had a geranium plant, and I saw a tree frog in it. Later I went back, and the tree frog was GONE!!!! So OBVIOUSLY the geranium ATE it! And ATE IT ALIVE!! It must have been gruesome.

I need a life. Or candy. Either would do.

I recently spent several months trying to prove to the MA dept of revenue that I DID NOT live in their state. Very very difficult!

Mixed species vivaria with larger species are somewhat rare. To be quite honest, all I have seen are a few anaconda enclosures with fish in the water feature....one had a brazilian rainbow boa that was in a 'root structure' on land. I have seen many things with smaller reptiles though.

Here are my thoughts on doing a multi-species enclosure with a burm...

I would worry that the burm could crush small terrestrial animals since they are in a confined space. If you offered fixed shelters for refuge, you should not have as many problems. You could also go with arboreal lizards (i.e. tokay geckos) or maybe even small arboreal snakes that would most likely remain completely off the ground.

Small species + big enclosure = scarce food items. If attempting the enclosure with lizards and frogs, the only way to get adequate food to them would be to feed 'heavy' every time. This would cause excessive loose insects in the enclosure. While flies for frogs may not be a problem, crickets will eat at the burm if left loose in the enclosure with no significant food and water (no joke!!). If you provide food and water for feeder insects in the enclosure, then you have to worry about them breeding....and that is a whole different mess. If you go the snake route, feeding a smaller snake in an enclosure with a burm could cause all sorts of trouble if not done properly....the scent of rodent in the air is not something to mess with and you will have to be constantly aware of the burm while feeding the other snake/s.

Aside from those issues, I don't really see nothing wrong with it.....IF you are providing the right environmental conditions for the species added :) The moisture needed for most frogs could lead to scale rot issues with the burm. You could partition a part of the enclosure off for the moisture, but if you were to go that far you might as well setup another enclosure for the frogs.

That all considered. I would be more concerned with enclosure maintenance and cleaning than anything else. With mixed species enclosures, it is best to have a 'do not disturb' sort of setup (i.e. bioactive substrate, insects to feed on waste, etc.) .... and with a 10 pound burm crap...I don't see how you could avoid completely cleaning out the enclosure regularly.


EDIT: I just looked at the cage pictures and from the layout of the cage and its size, I would say it would be much better suited for a green tree boa/tree frog/gecko enclosure. That is just my take though. Maybe when the burm outgrows that cage, you can modify it for something else :)