the ethics of giant snakes

as an outsider to giant pythons i feel like it is almost unreal to be able to keep a snake that gets 14' long?

maybe i am just mis informed but if you keep a retic how do YOU yourself handle it,how big is yours?

I want to be able to undertand and not just say, NO WAY

I have a few friends that had giants. They were not nervous about handling them, but were respectful and careful. Some snakes need a second person to lift them into a cage, some do not. Some keepers will only keep giants if they have that second person, while others feel no need for such.

If the keeper can handle the animal, and has a proper enclosure for it, it's no more of an issue than keeping a large dog. Both COULD injure other people IF they wanted to/were startled. But it's the keeper who determines how to best handle them to make the animal and people safe and healthy.

All above only my opinion, subject to change without notice, contents measured by weight, not volumne.

I used to be extremely phobic of snakes. I conquered my fear by helping a collector/hobbyist/breeder on a weekly basis. For years I helped with animals that ranged from worm-sized to wrist sized (baby corns/kings to bp's and boas). I used to also observe as he and two others took care of the hots and giants. after watching the animals and learning their personalities, their behavior became predictable. Soon I was helping pull big mean female green annie's out weekly for cage scrubbing. I think my fear of snakes was completely gone after my first green anaconda bite. The injury was so minor compared to the size of the animal... really boosted my confidence. I then started to handle the other humongos, testy (but trustworthy) retics, lazy spoiled burms, one EXTREMELY viscious afroc.....

Having a large snake is a big responsibility. But, it is something that a responsible person can handle. If you understand your animals, and you respect them, you will never have a problem, and will enjoy a long lived companion. We take our giants outdoors frequently this time of year, and they seem to enjoy the excersize and interaction. As far as size, while they are very large and heavy, a coiled 15' retic will fit on your lap like a labrador. Big, but possible. Giants have a bad rep, and it's not their fault. It's the fault of the uneducated and the irresponsible.

If I have to take them out of the cage for any reason I let someone else in the family know what I'll be doing and usually ask them to watch me while I do whatever it is I need to do, (feeding, cage cleaning etc...) I only have a couple of burms and neither of them are particularly large. I've never had any problems, but it's better to be safe then sorry. It's like wearing a seat belt. It's a wise idea to wear one but you hope you never need it.

Yeah it's definitely not the snakes' faults. They're beautiful, amazing animals! But, I do worry and feel sad when someone UNPREPARED gets one.

All good posts so far; however, no one has yet addressed the issue of ethics.

Anyone?

Keeping the true giants is something that, for me, was desired from day one, but not actually accomplished until many years with smaller, yet similar snakes like boa constrictors.

Learning how to "read" the snake takes time. Learning how to get a snake to "trust" you takes time. Once the knowledge is acquired, however, it can be applied to almost all species of reptile, though I have not worked with venomous species yet. I use patience, scent and behavioural cues (and audible ones with lizards and crocodilians who can hear them) to accomplish this "trust".

To me, there is nothing more rewarding than interacting with these fascinating creatures such as large snakes, large monitors and tegus and crocodilians knowing full well that if you follow the protocols, so will they.

Chris

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Originally Posted by mumps

knowing full well that if you follow the protocols, so will they.

Chris

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Now THAT is an interesting theory. Not a single thing to do with ethics, but a heckofa .....fact, I suppose, yes, let's go with fact, it's ever so much nicer than saying it's bullsnot, ever so much, yes, much much better....

I don't know about ethics here.

Is it ethical? If you do it "right" (who defines that? If I define it, then I know what I think is right) then it can be ethical.

Things not ethical: neglecting the animal if help to handle it is not available, putting other people or pets in danger due to your animal, frightening others with it and therefore encouraging anti-reptile activists, releasing the animal to the wild, selling these animals (at any age) to someone you know will not be a suitable home... to ME those would be unethical things to do

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Originally Posted by wilomn

All good posts so far; however, no one has yet addressed the issue of ethics.

Anyone?

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Well, neither of my big snakes are particularly ethical. In fact they're pretty cold blooded. :gj:

If you can properly care for a giant and meet all its needs I don't see it being unethical. Some day, when I am able to afford it and have the space I would really love to get a burm. They are just incredible snakes to me, and I relish the times I'm able to be around them.

great discussions! so i am now convinced thatgreat snakes are awesome for some, just not for me

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Now THAT is an interesting theory. Not a single thing to do with ethics, but a heckofa .....fact, I suppose, yes, let's go with fact, it's ever so much nicer than saying it's bullsnot, ever so much, yes, much much better....

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I don't know what you're getting at.

I interact with my animals daily, and have established protocols that if I follow, I am at no risk of injury/harm. Some examples:

Never smell like food.
If the first thing they smell is me when the enclosure is open, they know no food is forthcoming.
For monitors/tegus a feeding cue is used of an audible nature.

I say these things with certainty because after keeping giants for over 19 years (over 30 with herps), I have been bitten by giants (let's say over 6 feet as sometimes I've acquired larger specimens that needed to establish the protocols still) a total of ONCE. And I'll accept full responsibility for that occasion, it was certainly not the snake's fault.

Chris

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Originally Posted by mumps

I don't know what you're getting at.

I interact with my animals daily, and have established protocols that if I follow, I am at no risk of injury/harm. Some examples:

Never smell like food.
If the first thing they smell is me when the enclosure is open, they know no food is forthcoming.
For monitors/tegus a feeding cue is used of an audible nature.

I say these things with certainty because after keeping giants for over 19 years (over 30 with herps), I have been bitten by giants (let's say over 6 feet as sometimes I've acquired larger specimens that needed to establish the protocols still) a total of ONCE. And I'll accept full responsibility for that occasion, it was certainly not the snake's fault.

Chris

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Nothing personal, it's just the way people say things sometimes.

The snake follows no protocols. You can't say that he does if there are none for him, which there aren't unless you have the secret of direct communication with your snakes.

While YOU may do well, and I'm in the same boat as you, never had a big one bite me that wasn't my fault, however, I am not faultless, hence the rare bite.

But, by your statement, it makes it sound as though if the human involved does all it should in the partnership, there will be no problems with the snake. This is largely but not 100% accurate.

Just listing my experience.

I for one believe reptiles are a lot smarter than actually given credit for.

Chris

As TheOtherLeadingBrand commented, "ethics" seems like a somewhat odd word to use. I certainly don't believe that a responsible adult keeping a large constrictor in an appropriate enclosure, caring for it properly and not showing it off in an irresponsible manner is "unethical." (Though there are, to be sure, many, many people who do believe this.) Maybe the word you were looking for was "logistics?"

As far as safety goes, my feeling is that there are certainly ways to minimize the risk, most of which have already been mentioned -- don't smell like food, know how to "read" the body language of snakes, etc.. I also prefer to work with animals that are known to be of calmer disposition, rather than disagreeable monsters -- but, there are some who are fine with the latter, even when it comes to giants.

What I think is very important is to realize what an incredibly powerful, potentially dangerous animal one is working with when interacting with giants -- and I think this is something that giant keepers may sometimes forget, especially when working with big, seemingly tame "slug-snakes" like Cookie here (my Burm, pictured below). Before I purchased her, the seller sent me pictures of his (very young) son interacting with the snake. While this seeming display of "tameness" was one of the things that made me want to go have a look and eventually buy her, I think it could be argued that this was a fairly irresponsible thing to do to allow a child to interact with such an animal, and that it could even be considered to border on "unethical." (Similar to how, the other day, I saw the three or four year old daughter of a horse trainer riding around bareback on the back of a horse at a horse show ...)

I do believe that anyone wanting to work with these animals (giant snakes, or horses, or certain types of cattle, or alligators, or ... ) needs to realize the potential for a life-threatening situation to occur in an instant, plan accordingly, and accept that, to some degree, you are always at least somewhat relying on the animal doing what you want it to do. There's always an element of chance and perhaps misplaced trust, though I trust my Burm and the horses that I sometimes with with more than I do the drivers in this area, and I drive on the road every darn day ... So I guess it's all a matter of whether you're willing to take a risk solely for the enjoyment of the animal.

Boy was that a rambling post! ... Sorry for that.

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