who has more body fat or fat period?

rodent whise, what do you think?

what do you mean? rats vs. mice... asf... hamster.... gerbil

lets say all rodents ... mice, rats, gerbils ... whatever
lets see the answers fly

my guess would be
rats
hamster
asf
gerbil
mice
greatest fat% to least

Well, according to:

Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey (Excluding fish)
Prepared By: Ellen S. Dierenfeld, PhD, Heather L. Alcorn, BS, and Krista L. Jacobsen, MS - 2002
(http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp)


The order of rodent prey species with the highest percentage of crude fat from greatest to least would be:

Prey Species (Scientific name) - Notes - Crude Fat Percentage
Guinea pig (Cavia porcellus) - Males, 10 week - 46.10%
Guinea pig (Cavia porcellus) - Neonatal males - 34.70%
Hamster (Mesocricetus auratus) - 34.70%
Rat (Rattus norvegicus) - Adult or >50 g - 32.60%
Mouse, domestic (Mus domesticus) - Juvenile, 3-10 g - 30.10%
Rat (Rattus norvegicus) - Juvenile, 10-50 g - 27.50%
Rat (Rattus norvegicus) - Neonatal, <10 g - 23.70%
Mouse, domestic (Mus domesticus) - Adult or >10 g - 23.60%
Mouse, domestic (Mus domesticus) - Neonatal, <3 g - 17%

(ASFs and Gerbils are not in the chart)


With that being said, I don't suggest feeding anything to a Ball Python besides feeder rats, feeder mice, or ASFs. There is more to a prey item than fat content.

well i want'd to give my spiderball a gerbil for her birthday ... but why would u say no to everything else but mice n rats ?

Why are you switching her food item? Are you placing human desires on an animal that may end up ONLY taking this new food? Given how most gerbils cost more money than rats and mice, and are hard to come by... sounds like foolish idea to me.

I agree with Littleindiangirl. This does not make must sense. I could see giving a dog or cat a special treat on their birthday and holidays but why for your ball python. If you want to do something nice for her hold her a little longer not that they will know the difference. I understand you want to do something nice for your pet but this is not it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Why are you switching her food item? Are you placing human desires on an animal that may end up ONLY taking this new food? Given how most gerbils cost more money than rats and mice, and are hard to come by... sounds like foolish idea to me.

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so in other words im stupid for doing such a thing ?
I think i know the differences from cats dogs and snakes.
just thought i'd be different ... so with that said this question was to see who knows about rodents, and if you know sites. This was never about what i will do. So i can ummm pretty much do what i please. My snake, my pet, responsibilty. Thank you though for caring

PS. my snakes eat anything when hungry. i dont switch there food everyday. Geez people one day out of the year kum on now dont take it so serious. Gosh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LGL

Well, according to:

Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey (Excluding fish)
Prepared By: Ellen S. Dierenfeld, PhD, Heather L. Alcorn, BS, and Krista L. Jacobsen, MS - 2002
(http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp)


The order of rodent prey species with the highest percentage of crude fat from greatest to least would be:

Prey Species (Scientific name) - Notes - Crude Fat Percentage
Guinea pig (Cavia porcellus) - Males, 10 week - 46.10%
Guinea pig (Cavia porcellus) - Neonatal males - 34.70%
Hamster (Mesocricetus auratus) - 34.70%
Rat (Rattus norvegicus) - Adult or >50 g - 32.60%
Mouse, domestic (Mus domesticus) - Juvenile, 3-10 g - 30.10%
Rat (Rattus norvegicus) - Juvenile, 10-50 g - 27.50%
Rat (Rattus norvegicus) - Neonatal, <10 g - 23.70%
Mouse, domestic (Mus domesticus) - Adult or >10 g - 23.60%
Mouse, domestic (Mus domesticus) - Neonatal, <3 g - 17%

(ASFs and Gerbils are not in the chart)


With that being said, I don't suggest feeding anything to a Ball Python besides feeder rats, feeder mice, or ASFs. There is more to a prey item than fat content.

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once again thank you very helpful site ...

I think one of Connie's concerns with you offering your snake a Gerbil as a "treat" is that Ball Pythons are imprint feeders, meaning that they choose one type of rodent and it is hard to get them to switch. Gerbils are sometimes used to get finicky eaters to start eating again. The problem is that it can be challenging to switch a Ball Python back to rats/mice after it has taken a Gerbil. Perhaps because of it's high percentage of fat, Ball Pythons tend to stick with them. Plus, if you do manage to switch a snake back to mice/rats after it takes a Gerbil, it may become a picky eater and occasionally refuse everything but a Gerbil. So despite giving your snake some extra fat by giving it a Gerbil as a "treat", it could potentially cause some issues with your snake in the future, not to mention the stress that switching prey items can cause your snake and your self. So simply from a saftey standpoint, I would definitely agree with Connie and recommend that you do not offer a Gerbil to your snake. Besides that, your snake wouldn't think of it as a "treat". A varied diet is not a good thing with Ball Pythons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harm286

once again thank you very helpful site ...

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You are very welcome! I just noticed that you are in Colorado. Do you ever go to the Rocky Mountain Reptile Expo?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LGL

I think one of Connie's concerns with you offering your snake a Gerbil as a "treat" is that Ball Pythons are imprint feeders, meaning that they choose one type of rodent and it is hard to get them to switch. Gerbils are sometimes used to get finicky eaters to start eating again. The problem is that it can be challenging to switch a Ball Python back to rats/mice after it has taken a Gerbil. Perhaps because of it's high percentage of fat, Ball Pythons tend to stick with them. Plus, if you do manage to switch a snake back to mice/rats after it takes a Gerbil, it may become a picky eater and occasionally refuse everything but a Gerbil. So despite giving your snake some extra fat by giving it a Gerbil as a "treat", it could potentially cause some issues with your snake in the future, not to mention the stress that switching prey items can cause your snake and your self. So simply from a saftey standpoint, I would definitely agree with Connie and recommend that you do not offer a Gerbil to your snake. Besides that, your snake wouldn't think of it as a "treat". A varied diet is not a good thing with Ball Pythons.


You are very welcome! I just noticed that you are in Colorado. Do you ever go to the Rocky Mountain Reptile Expo?

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THIS right here are words to live by. I don't think anyone else could have said it any better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LGL

I think one of Connie's concerns with you offering your snake a Gerbil as a "treat" is that Ball Pythons are imprint feeders, meaning that they choose one type of rodent and it is hard to get them to switch. Gerbils are sometimes used to get finicky eaters to start eating again. The problem is that it can be challenging to switch a Ball Python back to rats/mice after it has taken a Gerbil. Perhaps because of it's high percentage of fat, Ball Pythons tend to stick with them. Plus, if you do manage to switch a snake back to mice/rats after it takes a Gerbil, it may become a picky eater and occasionally refuse everything but a Gerbil. So despite giving your snake some extra fat by giving it a Gerbil as a "treat", it could potentially cause some issues with your snake in the future, not to mention the stress that switching prey items can cause your snake and your self. So simply from a saftey standpoint, I would definitely agree with Connie and recommend that you do not offer a Gerbil to your snake. Besides that, your snake wouldn't think of it as a "treat". A varied diet is not a good thing with Ball Pythons.


You are very welcome! I just noticed that you are in Colorado. Do you ever go to the Rocky Mountain Reptile Expo?

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i never have ... i would like to though ... shoot me with some info please

really though ... my snakes eat any rodent and so far show no signs of "stress"

yeah but most likely after you feed it a gerbil it will only want gerbils. That would get expensive quick..... also if you ever wanted to sell the snake you probably wouldnt be able to even give it away

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matt71915

yeah but most likely after you feed it a gerbil it will only want gerbils. That would get expensive quick..... also if you ever wanted to sell the snake you probably wouldnt be able to even give it away

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i understand your logic ... thats why im mating my gerbils
as far as my snakes though, not selling them at all nor giving them away ...
the baby's i well sell of course but yah ... i got the money im good for it (trust)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lillyorchid

THIS right here are words to live by. I don't think anyone else could have said it any better.

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as far as "imprinted eater's" ... hmmmm i cant think of a ball python in the wild just lookin for mice or rats ... i think it eats what it can find

thats good that you dont plan on selling your snake but be prepared to breed gerbils for the next 20-30 years

make sure to not over feed, gerbils being higher in fat it would make it easier to get an obese snake. I don't think its that big of a bifference but just watch out

yes they would eat when they could in the wild..... they arent in the wild, they live in a nice warm dark tub, or tank and have a meal offered weekly.

advice for if you start breeding... dont feed any gerbils to the hatchlings that you plan to sell

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matt71915

thats good that you dont plan on selling your snake but be prepared to breed gerbils for the next 20-30 years

make sure to not over feed, gerbils being higher in fat it would make it easier to get an obese snake. I don't think its that big of a bifference but just watch out

yes they would eat when they could in the wild..... they arent in the wild, they live in a nice warm dark tub, or tank and have a meal offered weekly.

advice for if you start breeding... dont feed any gerbils to the hatchlings that you plan to sell

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true lol.... and i wont. promise

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Why are you switching her food item? Are you placing human desires on an animal that may end up ONLY taking this new food? Given how most gerbils cost more money than rats and mice, and are hard to come by... sounds like foolish idea to me.

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I really think it doesn't matter as long as the BP takes it...i changed my BP to rats and now when i offer mice it wont get them...which i really don't mind 'cause i can afford to buy her some...and plus more fat = more nutrients...

wouldnt more fat= more fat....what nutrients are in fat? i think it would be more fat= weight gain

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matt71915

wouldnt more fat= more fat....what nutrients are in fat? i think it would be more fat= weight gain

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but what is in fat besides weight...nutrients...

yeah but i get the only thing that you would see from the extra fat is higher weight gain

The only thing in fat is FAT.

Nutrients and GOOD things come from the Calcium in bones, Protein in muscle, etc etc....

The leaner a feeder can be, I would think would keep your snake lean and fit, and eating every week.

Like said before, it's best to just not switch prey items. I hope you can take some of our years of experience to heart, and do what's best for the animal.

thank you
pretty sure there are a few vitamins in fat too... then again they all have fat so what does it matter is some have a little more.

i was hoping the "having to breed gerbils for 20-30 maybe more years" would get him to change his mind

good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from poor judgement

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matt71915

thank you
pretty sure there are a few vitamins in fat too... then again they all have fat so what does it matter is some have a little more.

i was hoping the "having to breed gerbils for 20-30 maybe more years" would get him to change his mind

good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from poor judgement

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ummm your right but you must always remember you dont know my snake my snake doesnt know you ... I raised my snake, i paid to take care of him so ... its mine mine mine ... thank you though but i think i will do what i want for once =b

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Why are you switching her food item? Are you placing human desires on an animal that may end up ONLY taking this new food? Given how most gerbils cost more money than rats and mice, and are hard to come by... sounds like foolish idea to me.

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a fool is the worst word there is in this world ... i can see u dont read the bible ... im not foolish at all, got that ... as far as money im not worried about it when it comes to my pets

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harm286

a fool is the worst word there is in this world ... i can see u dont read the bible ... im not foolish at all, got that ... as far as money im not worried about it when it comes to my pets

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First, settle down with the chest thumping.

She did not call you foolish, she called the IDEA foolish. Huge difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harm286

i never have ... i would like to though ... shoot me with some info please

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http://www.rockymountainreptileexpo.com/

The next show is on Saturday, August 8, 2009 in the Terrace Gardens at the Denver Merchandise Mart (58th and I-25). Admission is $7.00 for an adult. I'm planning on helping out a friend of mine with his booth like I have for the past few shows.

i gave advice, thats why you posted this thread.. no? I never told you to anything, i gave you reasons on why it would be a bad idea. I can't stop you from doing anything, its not like im going to come to your house and not let you feed it to your snake. Go ahead, feed him gerbils, i dont care. Its YOUR problem then

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matt71915

i gave advice, thats why you posted this thread.. no? I never told you to anything, i gave you reasons on why it would be a bad idea. I can't stop you from doing anything, its not like im going to come to your house and not let you feed it to your snake. Go ahead, feed him gerbils, i dont care. Its YOUR problem then

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yah it is, but it seem like you wanted to tell me what to do so sorry

Most of the advice you have gotten has come from someone who has the experience to back it up. Most of us have tried all kinds of stuff, and we learn what works and what doesn't. I have some females who love their hamsters, but will still eat a rat when presented with one. I understand that they can be imprint feeders. I would say that the majority of keepers with only a snake or two are not breeding ASF's and don't have access to them, but lots of breeders feed ASF's. This could also cause an issue after an animal is sold as many will not take anything else, but it doesn't stop them from feeding them to all of their snakes. It really is about what's best for the animal nutritionally in the end. ASF's are the natural diet for these guys, and I think a great choice.

im sorry if i came off that way, im just trying to prevent you from doing something you might end up regretting