I know we all hate this, but.. HELP

If this is in the wrong section, I apologize ad nauseum.

I know I'm a horrid person, but I acquired a approx 24in ball python from a friend who had poop hit the fan and has to relocate. She kind of got dumped, and I was the one who allowed her to get dumped on me. I got her Sunday.
Tuesday or Wednesday, my children mentioned she hissed at them. Knowing they normally do not make noise, I held her for awhile and noticed she coughed. She was coughing. Like a slight hiccup and she was yawning in excess.

So I towel her tank to keep the heat in and removed the huge water bowl to decrease moisture so she'd have a higher, dryer heat. I can as of last night. I called my friend explaining, dude, i took her for you but im in no position to spend a bunch of $ on a vet on a holiday weekend!

As of last night she was rattling, yawning each breath, keeping her head and first 6 inches of her neck errect. so i began to freak out. An upper respratory infection.
I contacted his temporary housing friends.. they run a reptile rescue for our county. not bonoafide, but they house animals and rehome the reps cuz we're in south florida and we have ferral reps. They had baytril, which i thoroughly researched, and they agreed to give me some, with sterile syringes. i spent awhile researching it and the dose since i couldnt' get any help, and i am worried at her rapid decline.

So now she's in heat again, the baytril was 22.7 mg per ml. she is 300grams. so i calculated 15 unites to be 3.405 mg which she needs 3.33, but my math gave out on me.

I feel awful, just awful. she's technically, morally and legally MY responsibility now. but i practice good husbandry as best I can so I don't have THESE issues!
Personally, I think she needs a corticsteroid to stop the mucous production so she can breath. I can't find anyone open to even take her to if i
had $200. So i'm wondering and looking up the use of albuterol
nebulizers in herps. Any experience? Albuterol is a stimulant but I
know it's not like tylenol with adverse rx in animals. it's just an
upper. the saline will help break up the snot. she just started having it come out her nostrils today. so i'm wondering if i tent her tank and put my hand held neb in there for a few minutes just for her to get a minute dose of the albuterol and open her air ways?

Keeping in mind I was up all night with an
apoplectic 8 year old bawling her eyes out as "Lillith" is her new
best friend. I also know she needs fluids asap due to baytril's nephrotoxicity.

any advise is appreciated.

How long have you been giving the baytril?

Hi,

I don't know if any of the videos is of use?

YouTube - Injectable Solution ( enrofloxacin ) - part 1

YouTube - Injectable Solution ( enrofloxacin ) - part 2


dr del

Maybe this will help http://www.leaplizard.com/articles/dosage.htmlBreathing treatments will not work on a snake.

She got her first dose of baytril today. 15 unites = 3.405 mg of baytril so that is what we gave. 3.33mg was the proper dose, but it was hard for me to calculate it down to that small of an amount.

She is actually improving quite a bit. I just watched her awhile and she is breathing regularly without having to yawn or do the death rattle sound. This is hopeful, right?

Mine improved quickly on the injections. I did lose one, but we're not sure the cause. She had an RI and improved to appearing normal, then was randomly dead one morning. I don't think it was necessarily related.

Thank you guys so much. At this point my concern is for the animal. I just want to make sure I'm doing best by her. Now when I get my hands on my friend and can throttle him.. he'll need to be posting.

Hopefully the Baytril will work. If she lives my next goal is finding a good herp vet I can trust to avoid last minute ordeals. She is breathing better which gives me hope. Lord knows it could just mean she's too tired to rasp and yawn to breath and is gasping, but deep down I feel like it's working.

Those videos were exceedingly helpful. I'm stuck doing subsequent injections so seeing how easy it is helped out alot. I regret my syringes are insulin thin ones, but my snake is only 300g and his was 100g. I'll be extra careful.

OMG were neighbors!!!!!! I got syringes if you need some.

We are, we are. I'm in Port St. Lucie but work in downtown Stuart. Where are you?

Big John's feed supply in Ft. Pierce sells 25g, 3ml syringes. I traded them for 6 of the 3/10 cc insulin ones because my animal is so small.

Do you know of a vet in the area for me to use? That's my biggest problem. We have limited vets here and lord knows which oens really know herps v. the ones who claim to!

Ah, hello from St Pete- too far to help, but still "neighbors" in a sense

Okay, fwiw, she si breathing ALOT, ALOT better now! No more rattle/wheeze/snotty gasp each breat. I just held her and observed her in tank. She is taking nice slow, deep breaths without much sound. Just the occasional pop every other breath. Her mouth is phlegmy when she yawned, just the one time, and she's no longer holding her head up constantly! Yay! I think she is going to improve!

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Originally Posted by llovelace

Maybe this will help http://www.leaplizard.com/articles/dosage.htmlBreathing treatments will not work on a snake.

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I had to use a nebulizer with a sick anthill python. While your link did not work for me, I would guess from my snakes recovery and the fact that I've discussed nebulization with a couple of vets, that the article may be mistaken.

In our case, an antibiotic was prescribed which was then diluted in sterile saline and administered via a nebilizer that the Vet loaned out to me.

I guess the idea is that the nebulizer reduces the antibiotic into microscopic particles that can be inhaled directly into the lungs so that the medication is delivered to the site of infection.

Nebulizers aren't cheap, so perhaps your Vet can either loan one to you, rent it to you or even perform the therapy in the office.

I have seen forum postings where people have advised using humidifiers in lieu of nebulizers. Unfortunately, these do not reduce the particles small enough for them to be effective. This is one of the reasons that many people don't think nebulizing works - they aren't really using a nebulizer. They are using a humidifier which, in some cases, can make the situation worse.

Anyway, I had rescued a yearling anthill python with pneumonia that was given little to no chance of survival. Anthills are delicate to begin with. Our Vet loaned us the nebulizer and we administered antibiotics for 10 days with it. The snake pulled through and is still alive today.

Between you, me and the rest of the entire public.. :) On our way home after the initial Barytril shot, she had a "death rattle". We gave her some nebulizer albuterol from my hand held neb because we figured she was dying anyway. My solution is .083% on a full dose which is like 10 mins on a treatment. She got it only during wheezy, wet gasps three times. She is taking nice deep breaths. We all know no way the antibx shot worked in less than 6 hours, so im pretty confident it was the neb that helped her. She is way active and what not, which may be due to the stimulant in the neb. Either way she is breathing deeply, regularly, no gasping and no wet rattling which is better than nothing. Even if she succumbs, I think I will continue mildly offering the neb every few hours so she can inhale comfortably. Asthma sucks and I don't want any animal to suffocate to death.

Thank you for your experience. I think Lillith may pull through between finding local help, my desperate ingenuity and y'all's positive feedback.

BTW, the neb I use is perfect if you want to tent a herp. http://cgi.ebay.com/Portable-Handhel...3A1%7C294%3A50

they even fully replaced my first one which had a faulty switch. no charge or return shipping. just load with saline/meds and put it into the terrarium

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amandajf

We are, we are. I'm in Port St. Lucie but work in downtown Stuart. Where are you?

Big John's feed supply in Ft. Pierce sells 25g, 3ml syringes. I traded them for 6 of the 3/10 cc insulin ones because my animal is so small.

Do you know of a vet in the area for me to use? That's my biggest problem. We have limited vets here and lord knows which oens really know herps v. the ones who claim to!

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There is a herp vet in Palm city and also in Vero, I'll get the numbers for you.

Is it Dr. Wolff in Palm City? Aquatic Life recommended him but I couldn't reach anyone today?

What a mess your friend dumped in your lap. You're a dear to go to these lengths for a snake you didn't plan on owning...good for you!

When you do contact a vet, please mention that this is a rescue snake that came to you basically homeless and sick. Many vets will not only work out a reasonable payment plan but some vet clinics actually have funding they quietly access for these kinds of situations. Also some vets offer discounts for rescuers, especially with exotics since so many of these creatures have no where to go when they become unwanted pets. Never hurts to ask.

Please let us know how things go with this poor snake. I think you are doing a wonderful thing and certainly teaching your children some great life lessons in the process.

thank you very much. i was so worried about getting flamed. In hindsight I pretty much did what intuition, research and what i thought to be common sense dictated. I realize I could have made a huge mistake with taking matters into my own hands and I was quite worried I'd get jumped for it, albeit righteously.

I just couldn't wait any longer given her respiratory distress. I'm thankful she's breathing well. Now I have to figure out how to get her to drink. Any ideas? It's essential they drink or receive iv fluids on baytril due to it's nephrotoxicity, so I'm concerned about that. I'm debating asking my dr. to rx me a bag of dextrose if she still won't drink fluids. Any ideas?

First of all you need to see a vet and get a Culture and Sensitivity test done on a trachea swab.

If indeed you need Baytril, you need .4cc per 1000 grams.

okay, pulled her out this morning. she's not as active, she's yawning again and slightly raspy. She is still breathing regular deep breaths and when she yawns, there's alot less phlegm. I suspect she breathed/phlegm'd less last night due to the neb so I will check her again in an hour. if she's still wheezing, she'll get some more neb. still unconfirmed on this, but she did alot better with it than she did without, especially since the antx should have kicked in over night. also, she didn't appear to have any negative effects aside from being a bit more active, which is normal. in light of the easier breathing i'll do it again because i think it made her more comfortable being able to breath better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

First of all you need to see a vet and get a Culture and Sensitivity test done on a trachea swab.

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I know this, but if you see above, I can't find a good herp vet open on a holiday weekend and I have a snake that could not inhale whatsoever without standing her head up 6 inches and mouth open whilst phlegm rattled like mad as she breathed in. She went from a slight cough on Wednesday to this horrid rattle by Friday night. I could not, and chose not to, wait until Tuesday to find someone open and then the subsequent wait for the culture. This is assuming I could afford this right now, which I cannot, and I certainly can't take off of work for it either.

Quote:

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If indeed you need Baytril, you need .4cc per 1000 grams.

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That is also the dose the gentleman in the videos on this thread suggested which is about 9 mg per kg snake (because he used a 22.7mg/ml vial). My snake is only 300g, so she only got .15 cc which resulted in a 3.405 mg dose. Most resources suggested a dose of 5mg-10mg per kg, and given that this animal couldn't breath but slowly and with much effort, I went with the higher dose. Until I can get in touch with a vet, I'm relying on this thread, a person on another forum and the mom and pop rescue I found with experience in medicating sick, rescued herps. I'd much rather do 10mg/kg for 7 days than 5mg/kg for 14 days as I don't want to keep stabbing this animal.

Also, you can't blanket .4cc per kg. Baytril iv solution comes in more than one strength. You have to know the actual mg per kg to calculate the dose. I know the vial I used was 22.7mg/ml and had to calculate accordingly.

http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00341.htm

http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html

You're doing pretty good.

I would raise the temps to 85 and 95 if you haven't already.

Yes, a 10mg/kg is what I usually found comfortable injecting. You may want to check into injecting every other day for a month though. Alot of times these quick 1 to 2 week antibiotic regimens aren't enough to completely kick the bug they've got, and your animal is sick again a couple weeks later. You also want to switch sides after every dose.

And NO, you can't "blanket" .4cc per 1000g of Baytril, BUT you did you say you got the 22.7mg/kg stuff. THATS why I recommended that.

I hope the Baytril clears it up, if not, a C/S test could yield false results since you've already started antibiotics.

Good luck to you and your animal.

Welcome to the forum

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

You're doing pretty good.

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Thank you so much!

Quote:

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I would raise the temps to 85 and 95 if you haven't already.

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I did, I did.

Quote:

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Yes, a 10mg/kg is what I usually found comfortable injecting. You may want to check into injecting every other day for a month though. Alot of times these quick 1 to 2 week antibiotic regimens aren't enough to completely kick the bug they've got, and your animal is sick again a couple weeks later. You also want to switch sides after every dose.
Welcome to the forum

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Okay, so should I do 10mg per kg every other day then? I agree they may take a month to heal. She only used less than 1 ml of my friend's 20ml vial, so I can get more. Just need to buy more syringes so I don't cross contaminate the vial with reusing the same needle. I can do it 10mg per kg daily, if need be for a month. But if you think every other day is okay? Let me know. I'd rather stick her every other day cuz you know it hurts like hell.

Yes I personally would recommend keeping the same dosage if your going to continue with the Baytril.

I always do an injection every 48 hours, and usually give a months worth. So...14 shots. Do that every other day, and switch sides between shots. You'll want to keep injecting even after he looks better as well.

NOW, some people will tell you differently, and some like to do it differently. This is just what I do and has worked great so far. It also seems to be what the majority of other breeders do.

Keep an eye on him and if after 3 or 4 shots he doesn't look better, the Baytril may not be what you need, and a C/S test is necessary to determine what the best drug to use is. Not all Respiratory Infections are created equal, and what will work for one, may not work for another.

Make sure to give him clean water EVERY day and clean the bowl EVERY day if possible as well. This reduces the chance that he drinks and reinfects himself.




(To cover my butt from some people that want to argue. I AM NOT a veterinarian, I am giving my best opinion on a situation to the best of my knowledge. I only recommend something that I would do in my own home. I ALWAYS strongly recommend seeing a veterinarian)

yes, yes. tuesday i am all over this with open vet offices. she is 100% better compared to yesterday morning, so I am keeping the faith.

so 10mg per kg every other day is similiar to 5mg daily. maybe yesterday's 10mg bolus dose will kick it up and subsequent doses will keep killing the funk.

I am seeing improvement still. She is yawning still, but breathing faster than before, mostly normally. She's quite active too and she passed some poop and peed.

How long do you think before she's out of the woods?

You should see improvement in the first 3 or 4 shots.

The symptoms SHOULD dissipate throughout the course of the medications, some faster, some sooner.

It's just important to FINISH the treatment to knock the bacteria out completely.

Glad to hear your seeing some improvement!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amandajf

I am seeing improvement still. She is yawning still, but breathing faster than before, mostly normally. She's quite active too and she passed some poop and peed.

How long do you think before she's out of the woods?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by amandajf

Is it Dr. Wolff in Palm City? Aquatic Life recommended him but I couldn't reach anyone today?

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Yep that's him

Way cool. Calling his office tuesday. Here's hoping I can afford to get herin there or convince him to talk to me if i can't :/

any update?

I just read this thread for the first time. I really hope all is well. Please post an update if possible
Thanks
Rusty

She is doing very well. No longer making any sounds when she breathes. She is very active and I fed her Friday. Got some cute pics of her which I will post when I get a chance. She's also drinking very well. I'm going to take her to the vet I found once she's around 30 days post treatment to confirm she is symptom free.

I also concur with the month-long treatment. I usually do once per day shots rather than every other day. If she's doing well on the 5mg/kg, keep going with that, but once per day. You need to maintain the blood levels and every other day cannot do that.

If you want to prevent burning/scarring at the injection sites, add a small amount of saline to the baytril each time you draw it up. I do a 50/50 mix. So if you do 0.3ml(I'm used to the 100mg/ml solution, so dosages are around 0.01-0.1 ml per snake), you'll want 0.3ml of saline. This will reduce the caustic effects and will help the snake at least keep a bit hydrated. Rub the meds into the muscle tissue firmly so it distributes evenly and absorbs.

I know if I had seen that the dose needs to be 0.4ml, I would have given my snake a seizure. I use the 100mg/ml cattle strength because well, it's cheaper, and 0.4ml is for a very large snake, LOL.