Buying from a convicted smuggler???

Ok,,,i am amking this its own thread now,but i was cruising google lastnight,and stumbeled on an article discussing an animals smuggling ring arrested in the 90s,,and in it was the names of 2 people,who are today,still active in the reptile industry,one that plead guilty to 2 counts of conspiricy,and the other guy and his wife,fled the country to belize i believe it was,and then had to come back to face thier charges.This is my main question involving the 2nd gentleman,and here is an excert,without the names,from usdoj.gov

***** ******* was sentenced in U.S. District Court in Orlando. He pleaded guilty in January, 1999, to seven felony counts of conspiracy, smuggling and violating the Lacey Act, a federal wildlife statute. At the time of his plea, ******* already was on supervised release and had served a prison sentence for smuggling endangered Fiji Island Iguanas into the United States in 1995

Both of these men are still selling animals and breeding now,and one of them,if not both advertises on kingsnake.com

my question to pose to everybody is this,no matter what thier BOI says about them,would you knowingly purchase from of these gentleman,,or only if thier BOI says they are great guys now,,or would you let the fact that they was involved with smuggling,keep you from buying from them??

personally,i wouldnt do business with either,based solely on the fact that they did do this,but is that a double standard,as i am a believe that if they did thier time,then they should get a fresh start???

Tom Crutchfield I am assuming?

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

Tom Crutchfield I am assuming?

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That's what I'm thinking too...

This was an interesting read. Picked it up recently at my local library......

http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptil...zard-king.aspx

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

This was an interesting read. Picked it up recently at my local library......

http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptil...zard-king.aspx

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Saw an add for this in Reptile magazine. Looks like it really uncovers the world of reptile smuggling well.

I was thinking Reid from Captive Bred Specialties.

I posted a review about that book maybe six months ago when it first came out. Loved it. Read it in 2 days.

Shows the light on the dirty side of this business.


As far as your question goes, no matter who it is.....

I think something like this should be looked past once he has served his time.

Hell, a lot of the blood lines that we have in captivity are products of smuggled animals.

He was a dirty dude....but we have animals in captivity that many people own because of him (not just reptiles either).

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I was thinking Reid from Captive Bred Specialties.

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OP did say two.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

OP did say two.

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I think Reid had a partner in Hawaii or or Miami or something. I need to read that book since that was the only smuggler I knew. I saw your review of it and I've been meaning to get a copy.

Ok, now I gotta pick up that book!

it wasnt captive bred,and ya'll got one right,sorry i just dont wanna bring names out.also if i am not mistaken,isnt part of that book about the dirty dealings of strictly reptiles,who is still active as well?

Patrick i see your point,but if there is a rare animal,and you buy it from him,how do you know it was brought in legit?,thats where i personally would be hesitant myself

Absolutely.

Again, many animals that are kept today were brought in this way. It seems like it would be hypocritical to black list a convicted smuggler while keeping animals that are here because of them. In a way, They are Pioneers.

I guess it would matter if He / They had served their time, and only because I would hate to send funds to a fugitive incase they were apprehended before they got around to shipping my animals, (Not to mention people do desperate things in desperate situations.)

Besides, if something like HR 669 were to pass, How many of us would continue on, in direct violation of the Lacey Act? Don't throw stones from a glass house...

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

Tom Crutchfield I am assuming?

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Wow, i almost bought a pair of olive pythons from him.

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Originally Posted by RebelYell83

Patrick i see your point,but if there is a rare animal,and you buy it from him,how do you know it was brought in legit?,thats where i personally would be hesitant myself

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I understand.

In most cases with rare species involved, I think there is some sort of certification paperwork no?

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

I understand.

In most cases with rare species involved, I think there is some sort of certification paperwork no?

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In Lizard King it's shown how easy it is to get CITES permits from countries where people can be easily paid off. Paperwork doesn't even need to be forged, it can just be bought.

Right, my point is just that. Paperwork is paperwork.

There really is no way of knowing that the animal was brought legal, ESPECIALLY with someone with priors.

But are they really willing to do it AGAIN?



I am defending no one here. I think its actually a very very good topic, wish some other people would chime in.

The problem with smuggling is that wild populations are not protected. I'm not against importing reptiles however I feel wild populations should ALWAYS be put before any thing else (ie. profit/business). Often the animals being smuggled are not cared for properly before and after transit. They are looked at as an item with a dollar sign not an animal. It creates demand for people to capture animals for profit.

There are guidelines in place for importing reptiles legitimately for the benefit of both the animals and people.

Anyway, to answer your question about if I personally would buy from an x-smuggler... I would assume they were no longer doing it and have paid their dues. I wouldn't judge them by their past but I would research any possible purchases if they were selling something I REALLY wanted. Plus, I'm sure there are still people out there that smuggle reptiles and how would you know if they weren't already caught? Its not like they would advertise it.

That's why doing your homework is so important. It doesn't hurt to ask questions and politely pry a little ;);) Just ask them if they smuggle reptiles. lol.

"excuse me,is this brown house snake,,smuggeled by chance",lol,,i would do that too

basically,what i am thinking Pat,is if someone smuggeled say an australian species,just pick one,my head hurts right now,and they passed it along to someone in another country,who then wrote on paperwork,that it was captive bred there,for this reason or that reason,or someone from a zoo forged it(a gentleman that was a curator of a zoo was also arrested in this time frame,for seeling rare/zoo animals,and inflating the prices of antivenom to cover his tracks),it is still a smuggeled animal,but to the us,it was captive bred in another country,,,,then what?

i am not persecuting anyone,nor anything else,hence me not naming names,just a curiosity thing.....

Alibris has it for $10.15, Its on my wish list now.

Its an awesome book, in fact its the only book i read cover to cover in a few years. If you are deep enough into the hobby to be reading this post you will love to book.

As for dealing with "said people" its a moral issue. For me serving time means nothing. If a child molester serves his time, good, but Im not going out of my way to lend him a hand or invite him to my childs birthday party. If a 28 year old man applies for a job at my business and I do a criminal history check and see he has a conviction of possession of marijuana as a teen I could care less. Decide for yourself how you feel about someone who has been found guilty of crime X, make you decision about it and do what you feel is right.