Blood/Burm?

I've always thought bloods look like small burms, lol. Have they ever been crossed, like bateaters (retic/burm)?

Yes, unfortunately.

Yea they have mixed alot now. I still think the strangest is the burm/ball

My bad, I was thinking of the Burm/Ball. Can you point out the Blood/Burm cross?

Yea I think I have a pic of it saved on my computer ill go through and try to find it.

You know what I just reread the title and I was thinking the same thing I think the burmblood is one of the only ones they havent tried to make yet. Has anyone heard about the ball/burms in a while? I havent seen a pic of one in over a year now and I was wondering what is growth rate was like

I just read on another forum they are working on a blood/burm hybrid now

I've noticed a resemblence between the two snakes as well. When I first saw a blood it reminded me of a more tropical ball python because their patterns looked similar. But now that I have a blood I've noticed their heat pits are almost just like a burms and located on the same spot on their faces. I thought that was interesting. Although, the two snakes do live pretty close to eachother, it makes sence they they look alike in some ways.

I guess I just don't see how they look like burms.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I guess I just don't see how they look like burms.

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THey have scales and eyes, and ummm mouths. lol. I dont see any similarities coloration, pattern, shape of the head and body, none of them are anything like the other. But I have not seen all blood and burms in the world and maybe they have one that slightly resembles one or something. :)

I really think hybrids are a step to frigging far.

Ya ive heard of burm balls but never a blood burm it would be sweet

uh oh another hybrid thread. I love reading the same exact replies in every hybrid thread. Actually kind of disappointed in this one no one has professed their undying hatred of hybrids yet. I do have to admit I think a burm blood would be a stunning animal.

Theres was a new vid of the BurmBall that was posted earlier this week on Youtube. Amazing looking animal if you ask me!
YouTube - BurmBall june 2009

thats probably the coolest looking hybrid ive ever seen

he needs to handle alot more

LOVE that feeding response. I think hybrids produce amazing looking animals. We already play mad scientist with the crosses we do. Are people that cross dog breeds to create designer breeds bad people as well?

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Originally Posted by Denial

Yea they have mixed alot now. I still think the strangest is the burm/ball

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The burm ball is a really cool looking snake. I really like the colors on it. Ya I agree it is strange, but such a stunning snake!:)

i accully think that is one of the coolest looking snake ive seen, idk i like the pattern.

Dogs are all the same species. Bloods and burms are not.

Why muck up our captive breeding pool with real mutts?

I would never buy from someone that makes hybrids snakes just to do it, because there is no other reason to do it than just for giggles.

I'm not strong against hybrids, but not strong for them either.
I think if they are labeled correctly and sold to people as WHAT THEY ARE (crosses) there wont be muddling. But if you just sell them to inexperienced people whho will cross them back and sell them solely as one species or another, it could mess up the lines that have been worked on.

either way, they can look pretty cool.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I would never buy from someone that makes hybrids snakes just to do it, because there is no other reason to do it than just for giggles.

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A lot of serious people who breed hybrids do it for giggles. A lot of them do it for the same reason people dinker with odd looking snakes, to see if something interesting comes out from this cross. I do agree some people do breed animal "A" with animal "B" just for the heck of it but a lot of people carefully pick what species or even certain animals from a species witha sertain trait they want to cross, what look they are going for, temperment, and what colors and pattern they want. And once someone find a cross that looks nice other people like it and try to produce more of them. Its a lot more like breeding for morphs than people think.

It's nothing like breeding morphs.... Morphs occur naturally in the wild, we are working with animals we got from the wild. I dont understand how you can even compare two completely different things.

And yes, I wont buy from someone that purposely does random reptile hybrids. What you just describe IS only for giggles. Maybe they dont necessarily "giggle" while doing it, but I do not find the reasons for making reptile hybrids good enough to do it.

What does it serve other than to tickle humans fancy, "oh, look its pretty. I made a hybrid just to see if I can." You can't control what traits the animal takes from one animal, not unless you got some lab set up for gene splicing. And then, why???

Yea, what a great job, mucking up captive populations blood lines to make something useless to people who dont want a bunch of mucked up animals in the future and just want a blood python. Way to go.

And for people who say they will just ID it as a hybrid is not taking into consideration the forgetfulness, sliminess, and downright lying people will do. Neither can someone control the offspring from a hybrid breeding, can they control the hybrids offspring it could possibly have later down the line as they are passed or sold on to other people.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

It's nothing like breeding morphs.... Morphs occur naturally in the wild, we are working with animals we got from the wild. I dont understand how you can even compare two completely different things.

And yes, I wont buy from someone that purposely does random reptile hybrids. What you just describe IS only for giggles. Maybe they dont necessarily "giggle" while doing it, but I do not find the reasons for making reptile hybrids good enough to do it.

What does it serve other than to tickle humans fancy, "oh, look its pretty. I made a hybrid just to see if I can." You can't control what traits the animal takes from one animal, not unless you got some lab set up for gene splicing. And then, why???

Yea, what a great job, mucking up captive populations blood lines to make something useless to people who dont want a bunch of mucked up animals in the future and just want a blood python. Way to go.

And for people who say they will just ID it as a hybrid is not taking into consideration the forgetfulness, sliminess, and downright lying people will do. Neither can someone control the offspring from a hybrid breeding, can they control the hybrids offspring it could possibly have later down the line as they are passed or sold on to other people.

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Yes morphs happen in the wild. Do they survive? Normally not. Hybrids also happen in the wild. sure some we doo in captivity are impossuble in the wild but hybrids do happen, and more often then one might think.

Also peopel can be irresponsible with morphs. At first one might be confused by this statement but its incredibly true. Some one might produce animals that are are 66% or 33% het. something and when they seel the animal they might forget to mention, don't know about it, or not bother to mention it all. Now some people might be happy to find a hidden in there snakes, but for some one who has spent a lot of money and time on a project just to a hidden het. ruin it definately wouldn't be happy about the hidden het.

the best example I can think of is in leopard geckos there are 3 different uncompatible strains of albino. Some irresponsible people will mix the lines and when people put them into project they don't know for sure which albino is which an ect. so people can be just a irresponsible with morphs as with hybrids.

I can't think of ANY threads that are genuinly complaining because someone found out their BP's were het. It might be a problem in the leo world, but ANY proving of hets in the snake world is not a common thing to complain about.

Regardless, a lot of people sell 33 and 66 hets as normals. Are you venturing that they are being irresponsible, because the animal has a small chance at being het? Why not try and make a thread about that, see what sort of replies you get.

And back to the morphs in the wild. Where do you get an idea that our morphs brought in from Africa aren't surviving in the wild? How does that make sense in the evolutionary sense? If the morphs we're weak genes, could it not be argued that they would die out on their own, instead of being caught in the wild by humans? Cinnies, lessers, platty daddyes, pastels, ghosts, yellow bellies, spiders, toffee.... all brought in as adult animals I do believe, and people said, "Hey, lets see if this is genetic."

Let me know when you have data to back up no morphs being found and brought in from the wild. I'm sure there are importers who would like to know.

As to the hybrids in the wild, I am not arguing nature here, but against humans crossing species that would not interbreed in the wild. Let me make that clear for you. ;)

Many milks and kings interbreed, they are done in captivity too. Rats and corns, other colubrids etc... if it does it in the wild, where do I have a leg to stand on?

I am against people crossing reptile species for no reason other than to see what happens, or just to do it for giggles. Do you not get that? Lets keep this thread on track.

now that we "know what happens" when someone crosses burms with ball pythons, would you be against someone wishing to have one of these creatures, because they are enamoured with them?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I can't think of ANY threads that are genuinly complaining because someone found out their BP's were het. It might be a problem in the leo world, but ANY proving of hets in the snake world is not a common thing to complain about.

Regardless, a lot of people sell 33 and 66 hets as normals. Are you venturing that they are being irresponsible, because the animal has a small chance at being het? Why not try and make a thread about that, see what sort of replies you get.

And back to the morphs in the wild. Where do you get an idea that our morphs brought in from Africa aren't surviving in the wild? How does that make sense in the evolutionary sense? If the morphs we're weak genes, could it not be argued that they would die out on their own, instead of being caught in the wild by humans? Cinnies, lessers, platty daddyes, pastels, ghosts, yellow bellies, spiders, toffee.... all brought in as adult animals I do believe, and people said, "Hey, lets see if this is genetic."

Let me know when you have data to back up no morphs being found and brought in from the wild. I'm sure there are importers who would like to know.

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Its a fact morphs usually don't survive in the wild. there are those lucky few that do much the most don't. I mean do you walk out side an see albino animals every where? Its not that common. We are just lucky enough that some people find a few of those lucky animals.

Also in the snake world people do complain about hidden hets. if your working on a project and your expecting to hopefully get a certain percentage of one thing. You throw a new het. into the mix and its mess up everything. For example if your working on a project and it has taken years to raise the animals, breed them, feed them, house them and are working one a certain morph. Well your expecting to have say 12.5% chance of getting that special snake your working for. Well you discover that your snakes actually have a hidden het. in them and now your only have 6.5% of getting your snake. Thats how a hidden het. can ruin a project.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I am against people crossing reptile species for no reason other than to see what happens, or just to do it for giggles. Do you not get that? Lets keep this thread on track.

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Why would you mix morph A with morph B? Just to see what happens. To see what weird, beautiful, or unusal looking snake you get. Its basicly the same thing.

"Snake morphs came from the wild, but that doesn't mean they actually live and breathe in the wild..."

How is it a fact that snake morphs don't survive in the wild? Care to back that up with a shred of evidence? Just because we don't see albino morphs running in down town Manhattan, does not mean that because one morph is not rampant, that it somehow proves your argument that no morphs exist in the wild. Just the finding of the morphs in the wild... means you are wrong.

Considering a lot of ball python morphs are expressed as hets, they are more likely to be passed from one breeding. If all the little pastels we're eaten right out of the egg, the line would stop there. Pastel is not a recessive genetic trait, there are no 'normal looking carriers' for the co-dom morphs, and even then, some of the recessive traits were brought in as homozygous animals.


They do indeed survive in the wild today. Proof? Ask the importers how many morphs still come from the wild that we already know of.

And I have to highly disagree. Breeding snake morphs, which is the crossing of the same species, is far different than crossing different species. Its a paint job we are swapping out. Not the same as trying to match up two unrelated animals from vastly different parts of the world.

If you can't get that little, but very important difference, we might as well just leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Brewster320

Also in the snake world people do complain about hidden hets.

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It is not the norm in the snake world, please, I beg, start a thread on every snake forum you know of. One exception does not prove your rule.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

It is not the norm in the snake world, please, I beg, start a thread on every snake forum you know of. One exception does not prove your rule.

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I'm a member on a corn snake forum also and there are people on there who complain about hidden hets. Sure sometimes people think its a bonus but also like I said earlier if your been working a long time on a project and a gene you didn't know was there messes up the percentages people get upset about it and its screws things up.

Im not for or against hybrids as long as they label them hybrids then I see no problem with it. Most hybrids you can tell are hybrids. I dont like when people breed indians with burms and try to sell them as pure indians that kind of ticks me off a little

burm/balls are amazing snakes !! i have one and he is the best snake I've ever had !!

http://www.pireptiles.co.uk/theburmball.htm

from the info on the breeders page it appears to me that this hybrid was produced by mistake.

"There can be no such union and to speak of it is heresy!!" Lol

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Originally Posted by Brewster320

Why would you mix morph A with morph B? Just to see what happens. To see what weird, beautiful, or unusal looking snake you get. Its basicly the same thing.

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You're comparing genetics of one species to crossing two entirely different species? I'm sorry, show me the "same thing" about that. Hybrids often cause detrimental effects on different species much worse than any genetic deformities associated with morphs.

You keep bringing up that hybrids are naturally occurring, and in some species they are, but we're talking about a very specific hybrid here. Naturally occurring ball python x Burmese python hybrid? Good luck.

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Originally Posted by jason_ladouceur

http://www.pireptiles.co.uk/theburmball.htm

from the info on the breeders page it appears to me that this hybrid was produced by mistake.

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How does something like that happen by mistake?
"Oh hey guys! Let us put this ball python and Burmese python together and SEE WHAT HAPPENS!"
I think they're lying out their arse.

I was looking at the heat pits on my Blood pythons, and the position and shape of the pits is similar to a burmese pythons, however their heads do not look anything alike to me. I would say the heat pits are about as similar as the two species get, other than that they look way different to me.

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Originally Posted by Ham

I was looking at the heat pits on my Blood pythons, and the position and shape of the pits is similar to a burmese pythons, however their heads do not look anything alike to me. I would say the heat pits are about as similar as the two species get, other than that they look way different to me.

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Burms and bloods are absurdly different. not even gonna get into that topic. But on the idea of heat pits, How about the heat pits on GTP's and ETB's? They are pretty similar in placement and whatnot. Doesn't mean you should cross them. (Although, if you do, let me know how that goes :gj::rolleyes: )

I'm not boosting people creating hybrids, but has anyone seen the Amazon Tree Boa x Emerald Tree Boa hybrid??
This one has and does occur naturally in the wild... Doesn't mean that I support the making of such in captivity.
Pic from urbanjungles.
http://www.freewebs.com/urbanjungles...o%20female.jpg
http://www.urbanjungles.com/blue%20grey%20male.jpg

a NATURALLY occuring hybrid. Hell yea they look cool, do I want one in my collection, maybe? Would I ever breed it, never.

The problem isnt SO much with the idea of doing it(which isn't SO great to begin with), but the fact that too many people are TOO LAZY to pass on info to people who are getting the animals to correctly label them. Animals cross hands a bunch of times throughout their life(usually). What are the odds that EVERY person is going to remember "Hey, this snake is XX% this XX% this XX% this" etc, etc. With improperly labeled specimens and people only in it for the money, lies and "miscommunications" are bound. Then how are people who appreciate certain species for what they are supposed to find "pure" animals? What would you do if it came to a day where you couldn't find a regular blood python? Yes, there are people who wish to reserve their bloodlines and keep them pure, but who's to say they would want to put their animals out there for people to cross with "god knows what"?

I personally wouldn't sell an animal I produced to someone who I knew had intentions of hybridizing it. Just my personal opinion. They want to get it, there are PLENTY of other people who are out there to only make a buck.

Besides, Who wants a 12' snake with a "bloods attitude" anyway?

I wasnt suggesting support for a hybrid between a blood and burm, just saying the similarities only went as far as the heat pits...

I can understand being upset about hybrids entering the market and polluting gene lines, but in my opinion we already manipulate these animals for our own amusement, as long as your responsible with your hybrids does it really matter?

We keep all these snakes in captivity, but legally they cannot be released into the wild again, so conservation in the classical repopulate the wild sense is not possible. So how is it that we can draw the line at hybrids but not draw the line at aggressive breeding programs and color morphs? Most albino organisms develop issues with eyesight later in life, is it right to breed an animal you know will have health issues? Is it right to purposefully inbreed animals knowing it could possibly have negative side effects? I dont have any hybrids and dont really plan on getting any, but I think we are already meddling with these animals so much does it give us the right to judge hybrids so harshly?

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Originally Posted by bloodpython_MA

but the fact that too many people are TOO LAZY to pass on info to people who are getting the animals to correctly label them.

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I've never heard of a single instance of a hybrid as being sold as anything other than a hybrid, except with stupid crosses (kingsnake x corns, indians x burms) etc.

Walls, carpondros, burmballs, superballs, comas all seem to get correctly labeled.

On the other hand, incorrect information on localities or subspecies is a common issue with many herps.

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Originally Posted by bloodpython_MA

Besides, Who wants a 12' snake with a "bloods attitude" anyway?

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Are you KIDDING ME?! I want a 12' long blood python! That would absolutely be a dream snake of mine. I won't even get into how you might have an incorrect perception of blood pythons and their "attitudes", but I will say that I quite enjoy snakes with a bit of... "personality"

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Are you KIDDING ME?! I want a 12' long blood python! That would absolutely be a dream snake of mine. I won't even get into how you might have an incorrect perception of blood pythons and their "attitudes", but I will say that I quite enjoy snakes with a bit of... "personality"

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I have to say now that I have 2 bloods, I am realizing they are probably my favorite species of snake, both of mine are great!

Just FYI, I have 1.3 p. Brongersmai and 3.6 p. Breitensteini
And I've been reading as much as I can find on these guys for the last 8 years or more. :gj:
I'll give ya a full response later :gj: