Spider question

Ok I hope this comes out right but I doubt it will so I will explain a lot and annoy you slightly. I am wanting to know if when breeding a spider to a normal what your personal experience is with them when the spider is the male and when it is the female. Which have you noticed gives more Spider offspring? I am doing a paper for school and am looking for more than just myself and a few local breeders. However I have found that there seems to be a trend so far but I do not want to sway anyone with my results so far. I will post the end results when I am done with the paper. I hope that was clear but I will state again this is only taking into consideration when breeding a normal to a spider. Not what the results should be mathematically according to the punnet square but what your personal experience has been with them.

I bred a spider to a normal and backed him up with a Pastel male.. I got 6 eggs and 6 of them were normals

I bred the same spider to a Normal and got 11 eggs and 8 of them were spiders. I can tell you your spider odds don't improve based on which sex carries the gene.

I get what you are saying but like I said i do notice a trend so far. I guess what i am trying to get at is over all not just certain breedings. Like ok say I have 25 male spiders and 25 female spiders right. I breed each male spider to a female normal, one to one, and i take normales and breed them to the female spiders, again one to one, I know according to the punnet square I sohuld get exact half and half split but life does not work that way. Wow I am sucking at explaining my question here huh... So anyways from the above stated breedings would there me more spiders int he clutches from the male spiders or fromt he clutches of the female spiders....... Think that makes sense not to sure.... I did ask one of the big guys and he gave me the punnet square answer and I do understand your answer freakie frog but my question is more of an over this many clutches from spider to normal breedings I had this many spiders produced from male spiders and this many spiders produced from female spiders... I think that is more a understandable way of putting it.

make a poll ;)

Learn to use the enter key to make paragraphs they are easier to read. :gj:

And not many people here are going to give you an answer other than the punnet square answer, because in all reality, there is no way of honestly answering your question.

It is all luck. If we could control the outcomes as to which sex gave more of a particular morph I would honestly believe that the largest and more profound breeders would already be doing this.

We don't control the genetics other than who we decide to pair together after that its all the luck of the draw. :gj:

That is why I am asking for personal experience.

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

That is why I am asking for personal experience.

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And like I said, most people responses are going to be exactly like Freakies. It is the luck of the draw.

Sometimes you can get absolutely no co-doms and all normals, Like Freakie said. And then other times you can get more than 50%, like Freakie said.

There is no way better than the other.:gj:

Apparently I am not being clear as to what i am asking.

I know it is luck of the draw. I know that percentags say it will always be the same.

What I am trying to get to is when you have bred snake A to snake B how many were what you were looking for out of the pairing? So more statistics. That was why I worded my second question the way I did.

From breeding male spiders this many eggs were laid/hatched and this many were spiders.

From breeding femals spiders this many eggs were laid/hatched and this many were spiders.

That kind of thing.

I guess I should of worded it like this in the first place.

I hope that clears up what I am trying to get.

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

Apparently I am not being clear as to what i am asking.

I know it is luck of the draw. I know that percentags say it will always be the same.

What I am trying to get to is when you have bred snake A to snake B how many were what you were looking for out of the pairing? So more statistics. That was why I worded my second question the way I did.

From breeding male spiders this many eggs were laid/hatched and this many were spiders.

From breeding femals spiders this many eggs were laid/hatched and this many were spiders.

That kind of thing.

I guess I should of worded it like this in the first place.

I hope that clears up what I am trying to get.

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The question is pretty clear. You just aren't accepting the answer. Its all chance. It doesn't matter what Tom or Bill or Susans experiences are. Because there is someone out there with every experience possible because its all chance.

Male or Female, the spider has a 50/50 chance of passing its spiderness onto each of spring. Got 1 egg. Flip a coin. Got 10 eggs. Flip the coin 10 times. That's how it works. Some people will get all heads, some all tails, most will get a mix. The sex of the spider does not matter.

That actually will make more sense to actually get hard numbers. :gj:

Thanks for the clarification.

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

That actually will make more sense to actually get hard numbers. :gj:

Thanks for the clarification.

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I know it is a lot of work and I do have my own experience with this and am using my own past animals to go off of as well as quite a few local breeders.

I just hope there are a few people out there that are willing to do some calculating to help me out a little.

I know in some animals genes run stronger on one side or the other and I am trying to see if it is possible with snakes in general this is just my first step.

I am sorry that it took me so long to explain it correctly and hope that with the last explanation everything is pretty much cleared up sa to the results i am looking for.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

The question is pretty clear. You just aren't accepting the answer. Its all chance. It doesn't matter what Tom or Bill or Susans experiences are. Because there is someone out there with every experience possible because its all chance.

Male or Female, the spider has a 50/50 chance of passing its spiderness onto each of spring. Got 1 egg. Flip a coin. Got 10 eggs. Flip the coin 10 times. That's how it works. Some people will get all heads, some all tails, most will get a mix. The sex of the spider does not matter.

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I know that there is a 50/50 chance of the genes passing... But how often does that actually happen? I know it is not going to be like that.

I have had clutches from pastel breedings where I got not a single pastel out of 10 eggs but again I have had the exact opposite happen.

There may be something to the male female thing I am just doing a paper for school that is all.

Just trying to get hard numbers from a larger number of people who have bred them to compile the data and show statistics of it.

Do you take statistics?

The more data you get, the more it will go towards 50/50.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

The question is pretty clear. You just aren't accepting the answer. Its all chance. It doesn't matter what Tom or Bill or Susans experiences are. Because there is someone out there with every experience possible because its all chance.

Male or Female, the spider has a 50/50 chance of passing its spiderness onto each of spring. Got 1 egg. Flip a coin. Got 10 eggs. Flip the coin 10 times. That's how it works. Some people will get all heads, some all tails, most will get a mix. The sex of the spider does not matter.

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I think the OP understands this. I'm not sure you understand what the OP is asking for. It has nothing to do with "accepting the answer" the punnett square gives. The OP wants actual numbers of actual clutch results, like Freakie Frog gave.

Tattlife, I know I don't understand WHY you are asking, other than you said a paper for school. I don't see how it will be a very interesting paper. Either you'll get enough responses that it will be very close to the expected 50% ratio regardless of whether mom or dad was the spider, which for sure won't make an interesting paper. Or you will get an answer that appears to differ, in which case the only intelligent thing to say about it is that you must not have had a big enough sample to get statistically relevant information.

Also, have you considered that while it will be relatively easy to find small breeders like Freakie who can give you actual clutch results for male spiders, there are far fewer people who have had clutches from female spiders. That will have a big effect on your paper also.

You might consider a different subject?

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Originally Posted by Egapal

The question is pretty clear. You just aren't accepting the answer.

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I haven't seen his question answered. He knows it's chance, but is asking for actual numbers (even though we all know what could happen).

It shouldn't be difficult for others to post their numbers, as breeders are generally great record keepers.

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Originally Posted by kc261

Also, have you considered that while it will be relatively easy to find small breeders like Freakie who can give you actual clutch results for male spiders, there are far fewer people who have had clutches from female spiders. That will have a big effect on your paper also.

You might consider a different subject?

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The chance of finding people breeding there spider females to a normal male is going to be very slim to no pickings.

Do wish you the best of luck getting the data you want

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Originally Posted by Ben Biscy

I haven't seen his question answered. He knows it's chance, but is asking for actual numbers (even though we all know what could happen).

It shouldn't be difficult for others to post their numbers, as breeders are generally great record keepers.

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Ok heres the numbers for the 2008 year for spiders

Spider male bred to 2 normals

17 eggs were produced

of those eggs 9 were of the Phenotype "wild" and 8 were of the Phenotype "spider".

Of those "Wild" the sex ratio was 6.3
of those "Spiders" the sex ratio was 4.4

Which mean that 47% were Spiders and 53% were Normals

of those 41% of them were female and 59% were males..

So as you can see in even in my small group the numbers don't stray to far from 50/50..

I've got three clutches of spider coming this year I'll try and post the results combined with the above to see if it widens or narrows the gap.

I do understand that smaller breeders tend more towards using a male morph over a female morph. I have asked a few of the larger breeders the same question nd got pretty good results from them, I won't name names here, and so far everything is adding up pretty well.

The paper is for a genetics class where we are learning that in a lot of cases one sex or the other has ,for lack of a better term, stronger genes. I am just trying to get the information for something that was assigned to me. I chose Ball Pythons because. 1. I love them and do breed them. 2. I have better chances of getting information that is reliable than if I had chosen say fish. and 3. If the information I ahve been given so far keeps true to the trend I am seeing then it may very well change a lot of thinking on Ball Python breeding and then more study can be done to prove or disprove anything I may find.

As of right now I have over 4000 clutches of eggs total and the results do show a trend when taken into percentages. I will ahve the paper done Thursday and turned in on Friday so that is when I will say what I have found. So far most people will be shocked IMO.

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

As of right now I have over 4000 clutches of eggs total and the results do show a trend when taken into percentages. I will have the paper done Thursday and turned in on Friday so that is when I will say what I have found. So far most people will be shocked IMO.

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How many of those 4,000 are female vs male spiders? I'm anxious to see the results, but I want it to be 50% male vs 50% female. So, of 4000, 2000 males, and 2000 females. That's the only way to have a more accurate result. I'm sure you know this already, but I was just checking.

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

The paper is for a genetics class where we are learning that in a lot of cases one sex or the other has ,for lack of a better term, stronger genes.

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This is in direct contradiction to what I was taught when I took genetics in college. That was more than a few years ago, and science is not stagnant, so who knows what has changed. But I'd be really interested in reading more about it. Can you give us the text book or other info we could research?

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Originally Posted by kc261

This is in direct contradiction to what I was taught when I took genetics in college. That was more than a few years ago, and science is not stagnant, so who knows what has changed. But I'd be really interested in reading more about it. Can you give us the text book or other info we could research?

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My thoughts exactly! I would like to know the text book as well!

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

How many of those 4,000 are female vs male spiders? I'm anxious to see the results, but I want it to be 50% male vs 50% female. So, of 4000, 2000 males, and 2000 females. That's the only way to have a more accurate result. I'm sure you know this already, but I was just checking.

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Agreed! The results will be innacurate unless the results are from 2000 male spiders and 2000 female spiders!

I find it hard to believe 2000 female spiders were bred to normal males!

Actually about 1300 were female spiders. As for a book this is not in the book and is straight from the teacher.

As for a book the teacher is right look at balding in humans. It is carried from the mothers side. My Professor is saying that genetics are more likely to be passed by the mother than by the father. The paper is to prove or disprove that within a small sample group, a single species or a small group of a single species. Sorry that came out wrong in last posting...

Sounds like a neat paper. My spider male to normal females might skew the grade curve. But if you want the numbers...
Clutch 1: 4 eggs, 4 formed spider babies. 1 died in egg. 3 live hatchlings.
Clutch 2: 3 eggs, 2 molded, 1 formed spider baby - died in egg. No live babys.
Clutch 3: 3 eggs, 1 molded, 2 formed spider babies - both died in egg. No live babies.

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

As for a book the teacher is right look at balding in humans. It is carried from the mothers side. My Professor is saying that genetics are more likely to be passed by the mother than by the father. The paper is to prove or disprove that within a small sample group, a single species or a small group of a single species. Sorry that came out wrong in last posting...

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I've heard the balding trait is inherited from the mother's side too.... Kinda funny how genetics work! In my siblings, 2 brothers and a sister, myself and my 2 brothers are loosing our hair.. and balding runs on my father's side not my mom's.. Go figure :confused: guess we got screwed on that coin toss :tears:

So you have 1300 female spider clutches in your statistics report, that have only been bred by normal males? Wow... Interesting! I have a small collection myself and woudn't dream of using a normal male.... Het. Yes, but normal No... Go figure...

Regards,

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

I know that there is a 50/50 chance of the genes passing... But how often does that actually happen? I know it is not going to be like that.

I have had clutches from pastel breedings where I got not a single pastel out of 10 eggs but again I have had the exact opposite happen.

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With a clutch of 10 eggs using the normal curve approximation the probability of getting 50% spider and 50% normal is about 24%

Method:

Make a box 1's (represents spider) and 0's(represents normal) - draw ten times from this box - the probability of getting exactly five 1's is 24%.

Sd = 1-0 x sqroot (1/2x1/2) = .5
Standard Error = sqroot #draws(10) x sd(.5) = 1.58

Convert to standard units:
(we want the range from 4.5-5.5 under the normal curve)

(4.5-5)/ 1.58 = -.316
(5.5-5)/ 1.58 = .316

The area under the normal curve between -.316 & .316 = about 24%


So, 50/50 split actually occurs 24% of the time (with a 10 egg clutch) - you can adjust the # of draws from the box to calculate different clutch sizes.


Chad

I believe balding is what they call a sex-linked trait, meaning it is carried on the X chromosome. That makes it impossible for men to pass it on to their sons, and also more likely that men will display the trait (they only need 1 gene, not 2). Color-blindness and hemophilia are other examples of this.

Spider in BPs is not a sex-linked trait.

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

The paper is for a genetics class where we are learning that in a lot of cases one sex or the other has ,for lack of a better term, stronger genes.

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This is just not true. There are some traits that are sex linked and there are some traits that are a result of many different genes. Spider morph is not one of those. It has nothing to do with strength it has to do with the x and y chromosome. Males have and X and a Y and females have two X chromosome. Each chromosome caries genes. If my mom is a carrier for a sex linked trait that means one of her x carries it and the other does not. Now I have a 50, 50 chance of having the trait because I got a y from my father and not an x. My sister has a 0 percent chance of having the trait because she got an x from my father that does not have the gene. The more numbers you collect the closer to 50/50 it will become.

Ok results are in and I had 1326 clutches that were from female spiders and the total eggs from female spiders were.................................. 7956 that is an average of 6 eggs to a clutch...

I had a lot more males so to make it more fair I took a chart and wrote down all th females and how many eggs laid..... then took and matched things up... So say this chutch had 5 eggs in it froma female spider i found a clutch that had 5 eggs from a male spider.... I did not look at the outcome of each clutch until I had the exact numbers of eggs and clutches done and then I took and added up spiders produced the males and spiders produced by the females....

So who is ready for the results?????????


From male spiders bred to normal females the total number of spiders produced in 1326 clutches of eggs with a total count of 7956 eggs was 3291 spiders................41.36%

From a male normal bred to a female spider the total number of spiders produced in 1326 clutches of eggs with a total count of 7956 eggs was 5264 spiders....................66.16%

So I have concluded that from these results and the data I recieved the spider gene is more dominant in females and is more likely to be passed to offspring than it is from a male...

Thank you all for your help. Now to find out if this is actually true or just the clutches I had for reference so I am going to start a massive spider project.

Wow. That was a lot of work. It is still fairly close to the 50/50 mark. That's interesting, thanks!

Very cool stats! You could make sure to collect the info on the stats of any clutches each year, and continue to check.

Just curious... what was the odds for the male spider - normal female clutchs overall, with ALL clutches figured in, instead of just the "matching clutches" for the way you did it? Since you had the odds percentage for the All clutches from female spiders, I'd like to know what the actual odds percentage was for the All clutchs from male spiders!

Kudos

It was almost 45% from total clutches produced by male spiders to normal females.

Hi,

While you were compiling all this did you happen to get info on spider to spider breedings with clutch sizes and morph ratios?


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

While you were compiling all this did you happen to get info on spider to spider breedings with clutch sizes and morph ratios?


dr del

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No I was only doing Spider to normal breedings. I know that there would be a huge jump in the amount of spiders produced from Spider to Spider which is why I only did the Spider to normal.

There is a similar assertion in horse breeding and dog breeding about certain colors and about breed traits. For instance, if you are breeding draft horses to light horses, you breed light mothers to maintain certain traits or light fathers to maintain certain other traits. That one is more vague than teh color traits though. I think that if you are breeding for splashy paints you want the mother to have the strong color for maximum gene expression. (I am going from memory of articles read. So my memory could be off.) tatt, have you got any data on that? Articles?

I have nothing about horses but I do know what you are talking about... Kinda...

Hi,

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

No I was only doing Spider to normal breedings. I know that there would be a huge jump in the amount of spiders produced from Spider to Spider which is why I only did the Spider to normal.

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Pity. :(

The size and make up of the clutches in those kind of numbers might have been an intresting indicator on the homozygous spider question.


dr del

dr del, you could do the same thing though. Call or email all the ball python breeders that mention breeding spiders, and ask if they bred spider to spider, and what was the results.
I'm sure most wouldn't mind giving you the information. It would be a cool little study to work up. Given the number of hobby breeders with at least one spider to breed, it could be a great deal of information.
I know! You should get a government grant for the study! LOL.

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

As for a book the teacher is right look at balding in humans. It is carried from the mothers side. My Professor is saying that genetics are more likely to be passed by the mother than by the father. The paper is to prove or disprove that within a small sample group, a single species or a small group of a single species. Sorry that came out wrong in last posting...

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well im 21 years old and already balding, im sure it will be gone when im 30. every man on my moms side had hair til the day they died, however just about every man on my dads side has lost it. i think im walking proof that the whole balding thing being on your moms side is eigher not that simple or just bullcrap completly.

but i think it was said before, the spider gene is not the same as balding, its a simple dominate trait (well mayb not simple, we still don't seem to have a solid answer on whole "why are their no super spiders")

I recently went to the funeral of a 100 year old female relative on my dad's side. My dad and pretty much all of his male cousins and uncles where bald. Figured that was a classic case of getting it from the females. Maybe in your case it was from an X passed down through female lines for several generations with no males getting it until you got "lucky". Since women have two X maybe the other males on your mom’s side got the non balding one and in my dad’s relatives case they all hit their odds and got the balding X.

Very interesting on the spiders! We think we know how things work but good to crunch the numbers to see if we need a new theory. I was reading something a while back about the classic model of crossovers perhaps only applying to males. But then snakes are like birds and the females are the ones with the mismatched gender chromosomes (w and z) and so they determine the gender of the offspring. So maybe in other things you would need to swap the gender genetics when comparing to mammals.

I tried to get some data on gender distribution once and was just told that it's 50/50 in the long run. Even if that is the case as expected it would be interesting to plot the distribution and see if it's the expected normal curve or concentrated at the ends.

Maybe the females don't produce each egg randomly as expected but do something like copy a smaller number of eggs. In the spider case maybe spider sperm are bad swimmers but spider eggs cells are favored somehow.

You could go a bit further, and do spider x other morph, and see if fewer or more spiders were produced in combonation with other morphs. That way things like bumblebees would be counted as a spider, since they carry the spider in combo with pastel.

Always neat to see the tweaking of real life vs the math numbers. Once in a while you can get a little surprise! If you gather the numbers for 10,000 spider clutches each of male spider to female normal, and female spider to male normal... would the odds be 45%/65%.... or would it swing to the 50/50?

Interesting things to ponder.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I recently went to the funeral of a 100 year old female relative on my dad's side. My dad and pretty much all of his male cousins and uncles where bald. Figured that was a classic case of getting it from the females. Maybe in your case it was from an X passed down through female lines for several generations with no males getting it until you got "lucky". Since women have two X maybe the other males on your mom’s side got the non balding one and in my dad’s relatives case they all hit their odds and got the balding X.

Very interesting on the spiders! We think we know how things work but good to crunch the numbers to see if we need a new theory. I was reading something a while back about the classic model of crossovers perhaps only applying to males. But then snakes are like birds and the females are the ones with the mismatched gender chromosomes (w and z) and so they determine the gender of the offspring. So maybe in other things you would need to swap the gender genetics when comparing to mammals.

I tried to get some data on gender distribution once and was just told that it's 50/50 in the long run. Even if that is the case as expected it would be interesting to plot the distribution and see if it's the expected normal curve or concentrated at the ends.

Maybe the females don't produce each egg randomly as expected but do something like copy a smaller number of eggs. In the spider case maybe spider sperm are bad swimmers but spider eggs cells are favored somehow.

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but my grandpa had hair, and i would have to get his "x" since he only had one to give and my greatgrandpa from my grandma had hair, and my great great grandpa had hair (no picture but my grandma says he did), so unless it came from a great great great relative, which i guess is possible, but i don't think it a simple gene as they say it is, mayb im a genetic mutation and im starting a new line of male pattern baldness yay!

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

well im 21 years old and already balding, im sure it will be gone when im 30. every man on my moms side had hair til the day they died, however just about every man on my dads side has lost it. i think im walking proof that the whole balding thing being on your moms side is eigher not that simple or just bullcrap completly.

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Wow wow wow. Ok first of all, if you assume that its a mystery then your deviation from the norm reinforces that assumption. If you assume its a well understood science then your situation is pretty easily understood. Every man on your mothers side should not be taken into account, only your mothers brothers and your mothers father. If your mother's father had hair then he had a good X chromosome. Your mothers mother's had at least one Good X chromosome. Now your Uncles all got your mother's fathers Y chromosome. And your mother's mother's good X. So they all are not Bald. Your mother could have gotten her Mothers bald X and her fathers Good X.

Your mother then gave you the bald X and you got a Y from your Dad who coincidently had a bad X. So the Baldness could have come from your Mothers Father, or her Mothers Father, or her Mothers Father. It gets based down the mothers side. Your father's side's baldness is a coincidence. Its not like being bald is rare.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

but i think it was said before, the spider gene is not the same as balding, its a simple dominate trait (well mayb not simple, we still don't seem to have a solid answer on whole "why are their no super spiders")

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There is a good solid answer to the no homozygous spider question. It could be fatal in the egg. If we see more bad eggs, or smaller clutch sizes in spiders than thats a perfectly good answer to that question. There are many examples of homozygous genetics being fatal both before and after birth in other species.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

but my grandpa had hair, and i would have to get his "x" since he only had one to give and my greatgrandpa from my grandma had hair, and my great great grandpa had hair (no picture but my grandma says he did), so unless it came from a great great great relative, which i guess is possible, but i don't think it a simple gene as they say it is, mayb im a genetic mutation and im starting a new line of male pattern baldness yay!

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You didn't have to get your grandpa's "x" at all. You got one of your mother's "x's" She either gave you your grandpa's or your grandma's. Since you are balding it stands to reason that she gave you your grandma's. It would also stand to reason that your grandma gave your mother your greatgrandmother's "x" and not your greatgrandfather's "x". Its really not that hard. Its like flipping a coin and getting heads twice in a row. Its not even a little bit weird.

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

Ok results are in and I had 1326 clutches that were from female spiders and the total eggs from female spiders were.................................. 7956 that is an average of 6 eggs to a clutch...

I had a lot more males so to make it more fair I took a chart and wrote down all th females and how many eggs laid..... then took and matched things up... So say this chutch had 5 eggs in it froma female spider i found a clutch that had 5 eggs from a male spider.... I did not look at the outcome of each clutch until I had the exact numbers of eggs and clutches done and then I took and added up spiders produced the males and spiders produced by the females....

So who is ready for the results?????????


From male spiders bred to normal females the total number of spiders produced in 1326 clutches of eggs with a total count of 7956 eggs was 3291 spiders................41.36%

From a male normal bred to a female spider the total number of spiders produced in 1326 clutches of eggs with a total count of 7956 eggs was 5264 spiders....................66.16%

So I have concluded that from these results and the data I recieved the spider gene is more dominant in females and is more likely to be passed to offspring than it is from a male...

Thank you all for your help. Now to find out if this is actually true or just the clutches I had for reference so I am going to start a massive spider project.

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There is a lot wrong with this. First. Its not about being fair. You have two separate experiments running. If it was one experiment then your percentages would equal 100%. So lets look at them as two separate things.

Male spider bred to Female normal. You said that the actual numbers were 45%, not sure why you felt the need to leave out data, but lets look at that. So what you are saying is that when you add that missing data in you go from 41.36% to about 45% So thats a 3% gain. So assuming the amount of eggs you left out was smaller than what you kept in the data you kept out must have been much closer to 50/50.

Female spiders bred to male normals. 66.61%, there are two possible explanations. One is a statistical bias that would even out if you increased your sample size. The other is a genetic explanation. So whats your hypothesis for a genetic explanation.

Rule number one of a good experiment is never throw out data. You show all your data and then create hypothesis for why there are variations from what was expected. Your focusing on the results you are trying to prove which in my opinion are just wrong, and because of that focus you are missing out on possible discoveries. Look at the data you collected as a whole and see what its telling you then look closer and try and see what its hiding.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Rule number one of a good experiment is never throw out data. You show all your data and then create hypothesis for why there are variations from what was expected. Your focusing on the results you are trying to prove which in my opinion are just wrong, and because of that focus you are missing out on possible discoveries. Look at the data you collected as a whole and see what its telling you then look closer and try and see what its hiding.

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rule number 2 is statistics can be bent and twisted either way. every person on this board should of seen that by now

The OP seems to have posted limited data on what he collected due to everyone asking him to do so, not to just simply make things even. I bet for his paper (what this was done for, not our entertainment) he posted all data.

It amazes me that as many people on here did not get what he was talking about at first and resisted as much as they did. It was almost like people were either offended or scared of the question.

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Originally Posted by DM1975

The OP seems to have posted limited data on what he collected due to everyone asking him to do so, not to just simply make things even. I bet for his paper (what this was done for, not our entertainment) he posted all data.

It amazes me that as many people on here did not get what he was talking about at first and resisted as much as they did. It was almost like people were either offended or scared of the question.

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I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the question was asked as if it were an unanswered question and that he was attempting to show that the spider trait was sex linked. Many people, myself included, believe its an asked and answered question, spider is not sex linked and that attempting to prove otherwise is a waste of time. Personally I reacted so negatively because there are questions being debated regarding spiders. Such as whether Spider is a dominant trait or a co-dominant. Is the super form lethal. I further think that his research shows that its a straight 50/50 and that the variation he is seeing can be explained by a small sample set and unreliable data. And yes data that you get from other people is unreliable. The collector has to assume things that should not be assumed in order to rely on it. Given that the OP posted his results even to us with omitted data shows just how unreliable people can be when giving numbers. Further it sounded to me like the OP was very delibrate in his omission of data. I don't recall anyone asking him to make things even so it seams like he did so "to make it more fair"

You should not have left out any results from the males bred to normal females. You are looking for a percentage, not the total number of spiders produced so the larger the sample size is the more accurate your results will be.

Also a question about your "normal" males being used. Are you counting the female spiders bred to other morph males like pastels pins, albinos...If not I would question your data because there is no chance that so many people used a truly normal male to breed a female spider. Sorry, I am just not buying it. I would bet that pairing was done less than a dozen times worldwide last year (if that).

Good luck with your paper, but I think you are putting a lot of work in on trying to disprove something that is not just a theory but is a fact.