CO2 Chamber

My son and I found a lady that gives us a really good deal on rodents.My wife hates rodents so breeding them is out of the question.I hate the feeding process altogether and I hate it more when the rodents are alive. So because our snakes eat rodents that is what we feed them. So we bought 30 mice from this lady and built a very simple and effective CO2 chamber.It consist of Baking soda and white vinegar.It works very fast and seems painless for the rodents. I am still upset by this but I don't think we can train our BPs to eat crickets and fruit. So we do what we have to do
Mike.

White vinigar and baking soda? How does that work to kill rodents?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Oroborous

White vinigar and baking soda? How does that work to kill rodents?:confused:

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http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/

I personally prefer spinal dislocation for pre-killing rodents. Gassing seems nicer, because we've been taught all our lives to abhor physical trauma, but really killing is killing, and quicker/more painless the better. Nothing is faster, easier, or more kind to the feeder than spinal dislocation.

Yes baking soda+white vinegar will work to produce CO2 and let you suffocate your rodents.. but it's not the method I would use.

I couldnt do either lol! I have to do pre killed F/T. If I attempted to do live, i would end up with a colony of mice in tanks =0

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I personally prefer spinal dislocation for pre-killing rodents. Gassing seems nicer, because we've been taught all our lives to abhor physical trauma, but really killing is killing, and quicker/more painless the better. Nothing is faster, easier, or more kind to the feeder than spinal dislocation.

Yes baking soda+white vinegar will work to produce CO2 and let you suffocate your rodents.. but it's not the method I would use.

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The way I understand it is they go to sleep b4 they die.I know there is no struggling or panic from the mice as the gas goes into the chamber.If I had to choose to go to sleep or have my neck broke I would choose to sleep.I am not saying my way is the right way because I have never been gassed or had my neck broke.Thank God!
Mike.

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Originally Posted by Creeptastic

I couldnt do either lol! I have to do pre killed F/T. If I attempted to do live, i would end up with a colony of mice in tanks =0

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That is funny!You wouldn't believe how many mice and a rat i turned loose outside in my yard because I couldn't kill them.
Mike

suffocation in all species of mammal by CO2 poisoning probably feels the same as it does in humans.

Yes, when humans suffocate and die by CO2 poisoning, we fall asleep before we are technically dead.. however, that 30 seconds or longer isn't exactly pleasant. Plenty of people who gas rodents see signs of distress during the process. There may be a method of CO2 delivery that knocks them out before they feel negative effects of suffocating(slowly increasing % of CO2 they breathe I believe is a common technique), but vinegar+baking soda does not provide the kind of precise delivery of specific amounts of CO2 to achieve that.

I am not saying that CO2 is inhumane or wrong, and I have no problems with anyone using it. I just wanted to explain why I believe spinal dislocation is better for the mice. IMO the reason CO2 is popular is just because it makes the person who has to dispatch the feeders feel better about it somehow.

If you use CO2, watch for signs of distress. If there aren't any, then whatever method of CO2 delivery you use is probably just fine. If you see feeders gasping for air and such, you may want to consider a different method of delivery or using spinal dislocation.

If you have issues with rodents dying to feed your pets(or issues with YOU killing the rodents that end up being feeders), maybe you should rethink caring for snakes.

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Originally Posted by BPMIKE

That is funny!You wouldn't believe how many mice and a rat i turned loose outside in my yard because I couldn't kill them.
Mike

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:colbert: This is not funny and create a problem of pests around your house and neighbors and in the end IMHO hurts this hobby. :mad:

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

suffocation in all species of mammal by CO2 poisoning probably feels the same as it does in humans.

Yes, when humans suffocate and die by CO2 poisoning, we fall asleep before we are technically dead.. however, that 30 seconds or longer isn't exactly pleasant. Plenty of people who gas rodents see signs of distress during the process. There may be a method of CO2 delivery that knocks them out before they feel negative effects of suffocating(slowly increasing % of CO2 they breathe I believe is a common technique), but vinegar+baking soda does not provide the kind of precise delivery of specific amounts of CO2 to achieve that.

I am not saying that CO2 is inhumane or wrong, and I have no problems with anyone using it. I just wanted to explain why I believe spinal dislocation is better for the mice. IMO the reason CO2 is popular is just because it makes the person who has to dispatch the feeders feel better about it somehow.

If you use CO2, watch for signs of distress. If there aren't any, then whatever method of CO2 delivery you use is probably just fine. If you see feeders gasping for air and such, you may want to consider a different method of delivery or using spinal dislocation.

If you have issues with rodents dying to feed your pets(or issues with YOU killing the rodents that end up being feeders), maybe you should rethink caring for snakes.

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LOL!! I don't think this info helps to releif his guilty feeling. :8:


The best way for you to go is buying frozen from a rodent supplier and forget about the killing proces. Also it will be more cheaper than what you are doing right now.

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Originally Posted by BPMIKE

That is funny!You wouldn't believe how many mice and a rat i turned loose outside in my yard because I couldn't kill them.
Mike

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I agree, Draco. It's irresponsible to turn captive rodents loose like that. :mad:

I wasn't looking to upset anyone or start an argument.As for turning lose the mice I live in Ca.This state has very strict regulations on what animals they allow in the state for the reason of reproduction and upsetting the environment.These mice had very little chance of living more than a day or two in the wild.Not one of my best ideas but I can't and wouldn't take it back.The BP collection is more my sons than mine.I have never liked the feeding process. For those of you who were upset by me turning lose the mice I went outside about an hour later and they were in the same area I set them free at. I walked to them and picked them up and let them lose again.Point being if I could catch them with ease their predators would have no problem catching them. there are many snakes,coyotes,owls and other predators in Ca.

However, anything larger than a mouse or rat pup is quite more difficult to kill by cervical dislocation, and in my opinion, is a lot easier to do incorrectly, which would result in an animal in severe unbearable pain. Cervical dislocation is recommended to be done by someone well trained, and can be very hard emotionally on the person practicing it.

CO2 is inexpensive, easy to accomplish with very low risk, and can be done literally by anyone without practice. You don't even need to watch the entire process as it's happening, as long as you remain there and check on them after an allotted time.

CO2 has an anesthesia effect after only a few seconds, increasing the pain threshold and making the animal drowsy. This is seen as humane for the animal.

My .02 cents.

It would seem to me that it is cheaper to buy already killed mice anyways. Right? I mean including shipping, can get 100 frozen mice for 50 dollars. I would imagine live, they are about what 1-5 dollars?

Here's a link to the chamber I built on my site:
http://strictlyballs.ca/co2chamber.html

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I personally prefer spinal dislocation for pre-killing rodents. Gassing seems nicer, because we've been taught all our lives to abhor physical trauma, but really killing is killing, and quicker/more painless the better. Nothing is faster, easier, or more kind to the feeder than spinal dislocation.

Yes baking soda+white vinegar will work to produce CO2 and let you suffocate your rodents.. but it's not the method I would use.

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THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I completely 300% agree! plus.. who wants to be suffocated to death o_O

Suffocation only happens when you introduce too much Co2 too quickly and the carbon dioxide doesn't have a chance to "trickle" into the lungs, replacing the oxygen and causing SLEEP. Signs of a "bad kill" (or no patience on the users end) are choking and very deep, laboured breathing. Those of you who have witnessed these symptoms before, have witnessed a "bad kill". This type of behavior is not indicitive of the responsible herper.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

However, anything larger than a mouse or rat pup is quite more difficult to kill by cervical dislocation, and in my opinion, is a lot easier to do incorrectly, which would result in an animal in severe unbearable pain. Cervical dislocation is recommended to be done by someone well trained, and can be very hard emotionally on the person practicing it.

CO2 is inexpensive, easy to accomplish with very low risk, and can be done literally by anyone without practice. You don't even need to watch the entire process as it's happening, as long as you remain there and check on them after an allotted time.

CO2 has an anesthesia effect after only a few seconds, increasing the pain threshold and making the animal drowsy. This is seen as humane for the animal.

My .02 cents.

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But at the same time you are suffocating the animal. Have you ever seen the first Resident Evil movie? In it the Red Queen/computer locks some of the people in a chamber and fills it with CO2 to suffocate them and quite frankly I would rather die by being smacked in the neck with a ruler( If I was a rat) Then again I know how much you adore your rodents but honestly CO2 isn't as humane as first believed I mean.. Living things need oxygen, if you fill a chamber with something other than air what happens? They suffocate. Just my two cents nothin on ya sweetie

Co2 is the preferred method of killing small rodents. It is THE most humane way (when done properly). There is plenty of research to back me up. I read most of it when I initially got into this hobby, now business.

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Originally Posted by mykee

Suffocation only happens when you introduce too much Co2 too quickly and the carbon dioxide doesn't have a chance to "trickle" into the lungs, replacing the oxygen and causing SLEEP. Signs of a "bad kill" (or no patience on the users end) are choking and very deep, laboured breathing. Those of you who have witnessed these symptoms before, have witnessed a "bad kill". This type of behavior is not indicitive of the responsible herper.

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.. replacing anything in the lungs is suffocation no matter how fast or slow you do it my friend. Then again CO2 is sometimes used by people to get high in the fact that if you inhale it you basically black out ( NEVER EVER EVER DO THAT!!!!! I had a friend do it once* then again he was an idiot and he was driving:O* and he crashed his car into an apartment.) Your "drowsiness" is more like passing out. Those of you who have experimented with duster know what it feels like.

Please no infractions I was merely making an analysis built on my experience with idiot teenagers and CO2 canisters :please:

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Originally Posted by RoyalGuardian

.. replacing anything in the lungs is suffocation no matter how fast or slow you do it my friend. Then again CO2 is sometimes used by people to get high in the fact that if you inhale it you basically black out ( NEVER EVER EVER DO THAT!!!!! I had a friend do it once* then again he was an idiot and he was driving:O* and he crashed his car into an apartment.) Your "drowsiness" is more like passing out. Those of you who have experimented with duster know what it feels like.

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Royal Guardian, CO2 is perfectly humane.

If you read on the subject: At high concentrations (70-100% concentration) CO2 will increase the pain threshold, and will have a anesthetic effect in 12-50 seconds for rats, depending on concentration used. (AVMA , p. 11)

WELL before the animal feels any sensation of suffocating. They are quickly knocked out and are not aware of the lack of oxygen. They have no sensation of hypoxia.

Obviously you have never seen someone huff duster for the first time. it has an "anesthetic" effect only because your giving that poor creature the trip of his life. >

**link removed**

<< this is what is going on when you do it. There is nothing in duster but condensed CO2 so you can't say its different.

CO2 is NOT humane I don't care how many times people say it because I have seen it almost kill people. I know that people think its cool and fun and they do it for fun but doing it to an animal just isn't right. I'm tired of people blowing me off because I know what I'm talking about. I had to watch a childhood friend be put in an ambulance like that and to say that it doesn't suffocate your brain is a complete lie.

And If the mods see fit I will take an infraction for the video with my apologies but its really the only way to explain what your doing to your prey item. Doing duster kills so many braincells every time you do it. Imagine that on a mouse and you get where I'm coming from.

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Originally Posted by RoyalGuardian

CO2 is NOT humane I don't care how many times people say it because I have seen it almost kill people. I know that people think its cool and fun and they do it for fun but doing it to an animal just isn't right. I'm tired of people blowing me off because I know what I'm talking about. I had to watch a childhood friend be put in an ambulance like that and to say that it doesn't suffocate your brain is a complete lie.

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Kids getting high is not the same as putting a rat to sleep.

You are not educated or qualified to say that CO2 as a means to euthanize is NOT humane. Yes the animal dies from hypoxia, that does not mean it is suffering or in pain.

You are literally blowing it out your rear... :rolleyes:

Hi,

You are fundamentally missing the important differences that have been repeatedly pointed out to you about this.

The idiot in that video (which I have removed ) deprived themselves of oxygen using CO2 at high concentrations for only a short period of time before resuming breathing in an oxygen rich environment.

This does not happen when you use CO2 to euthanise rodents in the correct manner - they are exposed to low levels at first untill they become drowsy and fall asleep then the levels are increased to actually kill them.

At no time do they get put back into the normal atmosphere.

You are comparing apples to oranges in both the method and the effect.


dr del

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Originally Posted by RoyalGuardian

But at the same time you are suffocating the animal. Have you ever seen the first Resident Evil movie? In it the Red Queen/computer locks some of the people in a chamber and fills it with CO2 to suffocate them and quite frankly I would rather die by being smacked in the neck with a ruler( If I was a rat) Then again I know how much you adore your rodents but honestly CO2 isn't as humane as first believed I mean.. Living things need oxygen, if you fill a chamber with something other than air what happens? They suffocate. Just my two cents nothin on ya sweetie

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Are you really making a statement based on a Resident Evil movie as your reason for not using CO2?

I think one should make there decision based on scientific facts and not a horror movie.

Didn't get to watch video but I can imagine. I agree with del.

you can't compare them to each other.

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Originally Posted by RoyalGuardian

CO2 is NOT humane I don't care how many times people say it because I have seen it almost kill people. I know that people think its cool and fun and they do it for fun but doing it to an animal just isn't right. I'm tired of people blowing me off because I know what I'm talking about. I had to watch a childhood friend be put in an ambulance like that and to say that it doesn't suffocate your brain is a complete lie.

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What does some purposly inhaling CO2 to get high have to do with with euthanizing rodents?

Just reading these threads makes me wonder.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

Are you really making a statement based on a Resident Evil movie as your reason for not using CO2?

I think one should make there decision based on scientific facts and not a horror movie.

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agreed.lol

Both CO2 and cervical dislocation are humane ways of euthanizing rodents if done properly.

I've done work in the Toxicology lab at Northeastern University where I attend school. We use cervical dislocation on mice but not rats because of their size. For rats they are placed in a CO2 chamber until they "fall asleep" then using a guillotine they are decapitated. I believe what the lab follows is AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association) recommendations for euthanizing animals.

If the AVMA recommends using CO2 to euthanize experimental animals I don't see what this big stink is all about.

AVMA guidelines.....

For adult rodents....

http://oacu.od.nih.gov/ARAC/EuthCO2.pdf

For neonates (and pre-natals)....

http://oacu.od.nih.gov/ARAC/euthmous.pdf

Fell free to read up on the subject before you base you opinion on a fictitious movie.

AVMA Recommendations

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

Are you really making a statement based on a Resident Evil movie as your reason for not using CO2?

I think one should make there decision based on scientific facts and not a horror movie.

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Glad I'm not the only one that saw a problem with that. :gj: