Eggbound/slugs???... Not so much!!!

Rolled the dice on a Double Het for Ghost breeding. Girl's (mom) hatch date was 6-1-06. I picked up she and her DH brother in a trade May April of 07. They were on the small side and have been inconsistent feeders for me. Because she was 2 1/2 years I decided to give her a go.

Exactly on her due date (today) she gave me the clutch pictured below. All candled good -- NO SLUGS.

Even wilder, her clutch of 4 eggs weighed 361 grams with her post lay weight all of 539 grams!!! As I was taking her off the clutch I thought I heard her hiss, "How do you like these apples?" :snake:

Brock Wagner hit his EXTRAORDINARY Caramel Glow male in a 3 egg clutch -- I don't expect to be as fortunate -- but I have a little chance thanks to a LITTLE girl. :gj:

"It only takes one", will be my chant the next 60 days. :salute:


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ts_3_thumb.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...hets_thumb.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ts_1_thumb.jpg

I hope the 4 eggs prove out for you!!!!

great things come in small packages!!!! congrats

Congrats, but shouldn't you have waited for her to be at a good weight and size?
I have always heard that a female should be at least 1500 grams.
Just a thought
Good luck!!
Carol

Isn't it pretty much a rule that you should wait until a female's third winter and they are 1500 grams in weight...tops, before breeding them?

And if she was already skinny and didn't eat right before, why would you risk her life breeding her and have her dropping so much weight after laying when she perhaps even rufused food during her whole breeding season as well?

I agree, why would you breed a.. what? 900g?... female who is an inconsistent feeder in the first place? Were you trying to get her eggbound?? The poor thing is down to under 600g, thats just ridiculous. Good luck on getting your picky feeder back up to weight after THAT.

Not trying to sound rude... but seriously... why would you risk her like that??

Sorry if there is some exception to the rule on weights and age for breeding females, but I've never seen it.

this was her fist winter,and some snakes are just small in nature,which could make them inconsistant feeders,as they dont use as much energy,a lot of people do this,is it always worth the risk?,nope,i bred an 06 girl just over 1100 grams this year,and i know its risky,but i did it as well.

i say great job,great roll of the dice,and the best of luck for 4 ghosts brother!!!!!!!!!

It sounds a bit irresponsible to be breeding this female at this size. I'm not as well versed in ball pythons as most others on this site but even I knew this was a bad call. Was it sheer excitement or dollar signs that pushed you into doing this?

It's always better to wait an extra year or two than to risk the female's life... I hope she recovers from the stress and work of producing and laying those eggs for you.

Regardless of whatever morphs you were hoping to get from the pairing, the female was not up to weight and I think you could have waited another year. Even stating in the thread title that eggbinding was possible, its obvious you KNEW there was a risk.

i still dont think bill did anything wrong,in fact egg binding,and slugging out is a risk you take with every female,be it a 3 year old 900 gram girl,or a 10 year old 5000 gram girl,its a risk that happens,,hes not the first one to do it,and i dont think he will be the last

I know eggbinding and slugs can happen anywhere and anytime you breed, but I still say he could have waited at least one more year...or even do some off season breeding if she got up to WEIGHT before that.

I just don't think I'd want to risk my animals life with maybe a early pregnancy and would have at least waited to see what was happening with her another year from now.

I know it is a risk for any female, but taking an undersized, too-young female and breeding her just increases that risk.

I posted this breeding to foster discussion more than anything else -- I am glad it worked!! :)

This girl was 1200 grams when I started breeding her the first of December. Most of my girls eat MANY rats as they reach the second half of follicle development -- this girl ate ONCE during breeding -- hence the weight loss. She was never thin -- just not a long snake. Her mass was more than good for breeding. As many of you know, one can add the clutch weight and the females weight after post-lay to get a fairly accurate PRE-OVULATION weight.

I don't as a rule breed 1200 gram females -- which is my "personal minimum weight" for girls. I bred this girl because she will be 3 years old in June, her genetics, and because she told me privately that she wanted to be a mommy. Bill loves the family values!!!!

For me, the 2 things that could resonably happen were: she would not go or she would slug-out. I don't consider becoming eggbound a real/legitimate risk for a captive bred healthy animal. It is something you occasionally see from wild caught girls who are small, dehydrated, and generally unhealthy.

I am not saying eggbound animals is an "urban myth" and NEVER happens -- it does. But it is SO RARE among BALL PYTHONS that it is difficult to find many breeders that have encountered it. It is a condition that is FAR more common in colubrids and other long, skinny snakes that lay large quantity clutches.

The odds of one of my breeder males getting a respitory during a long stressful breeding season and dying -- now THAT is what keeps me up at night -- the sick feeling of discovering an open-mounthed breathing boy -- or even worse -- BUBBLES. Those are REAL worries!!!

I would inform/remind everyone that only a few years ago you were accused of trying to "kill your breeder male" if you even THOUGHT of breeding him before he was at least 1000 grams and 18 months old.

While I know I am far from having a "reckless breeding philosophy", I also do breed 500-600 gram 6-8 month old males with both regularity and success -- and have also bred 1600 gram 20-22 month old females from time to time. At no point do I consider I am risking their life more than any other snake I am "playing god" with.

I am a numbers/odds guy for the most part in all aspects of my life -- including breeding. Hell, I only get out of bed in the morning because the odds that I will be hit by a bus that given day are... SLIM at best -- I :confused: think??.

I have learned TONS about keeping and breeding from books, blogs, forums, a few breeder friends I respect, etc. -- and continue learning -- EVERY DAY! But NOTHING :colbert: can substitute for the first hand experience of tending and observing your animals, DOING BREEDING OF YOUR OWN, learning from both successes and failures, and... ROLLING THOSE DICE NOW AND AGAIN. :banana:

:banana:Good luck Bill. I got lucky that is all. I don't expect it to happen again!

Brock

These are the type of discussions that I enjoy. A few years ago, I was was very black/white and by the rules with my animals, and would have had much the same reaction as many of the others who have replied in this thread.

However, in those few years, I've had the opportunity to speak to different well respected breeders and hobbiests and you know what? No two did things exactly the same! There are no hard, fast, consistent "rules" if you will to keeping and breeding ball pythons. There are guidelines that are generally considered safe to share with those new to keeping ball pythons or new to breeding them.

The longer you work with them, the more you learn to read your animals. This is not Bill's first season breeding. That female WAS in her third winter, and I have no doubt that if Bill felt her body condition would put this girl at risk when he made the decision, he would not have bred her.

I've seen others who thought outside the box and pushed the limits. It was Jasballs who got even the big breeders to re-consider the weight that they first bred males. Like Bill said, a few years ago, it was unheard of to breed males less than 800 grams (he said 1000, 800 was the "rule" I was told). Now Larry and BT talk about breeding smaller males, I've heard Ralph talk about breeding younger smaller males, and many others.

It took one person to understand their animals and read their animals and be willing to push the envelope to change the entire ball python breeding industry's way of thinking.

I'm not in any way suggesting that a new person in their first or even second year of breeding should take a small girl and breed her. I'd still recommend to someone new to stick to the 1500 gram minimum, as to recommend any smaller to someone with limited experience reading their animals would be reckless on my part.

However, I have no problem with those with more experience sharing their experiences with us. That's how we grow, how we learn.

Kudo's Bill! And I hope you hit on those odds!

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Originally Posted by Coils

Isn't it pretty much a rule that you should wait until a female's third winter and they are 1500 grams in weight...tops, before breeding them?

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That is some peoples rule. There are many other breeders who breed smaller with no issues. I started a poll about this issue. Adam Wysocki posted a very informative response to my post on his thoughts / experience with this issue. Here is the link: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...females&page=3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

That is some peoples rule. There are many other breeders who breed smaller with no issues. I started a poll about this issue. Adam Wysocki posted a very informative response to my post on his thoughts / experience with this issue. Here is the link: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...females&page=3

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My favorite part of Adam's post (bold added by me) is:

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There's a lot of judgmental people in this hobby/business, don't let them bother you ... Experiment, try things, learn ... Rise and fall on your own experiences ... Don't let a so called "internet expert" prevent you from trying something "outside the box".

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