Unwritten rules of selling hatchling Ball Pythons

I have seen a couple threads lately, and have seen examples at recent shows where breeders are literally selling hatchling Ball Pythons right out of the egg. I am talking about babies that haven't had their first shed yet, let alone a meal. Maybe we should make some agreed upon acceptable guidelines that we as BP.net members can hold as our standard.

Personally, I think a baby BP should shed, be fed a few times, and allowed to shed again and then fed again before going on a for sale table. I think this should be the absolute minimum assuming the BP is trouble free (meaning it does not refuse meals). Obviously the harder to start babies that are refusing meals should be kept by the breeder for twice as long, or at least until it is eating regularly. Snakes I sell will have at least 3 sheds.

Think about it. Who is most likely going to buy a brand new baby at a show that hasn't even shed yet? or one that has only had 1 meal? I'll tell ya. The brand new newbee that has none of the knowledge or stuff required to get a hatchling up and running. They get the new baby snake home and want to set it up all wrong, and of course want to handle it all the time. Not to mention all the stress the little baby has being on the table, or moving from one location to another.

Now I know some people are importing hatchlings into the united states, and they are brand new hatchlings, having never eaten. IMHO, this is a little different because most of the time the person buying these 10 or so snakes at a time usually has the know how to take care of them. HOWEVER, before that person resells any of the snakes, I think the same waiting period must exist. My personal opinion is that in this instance, they should be kept twice as long before reselling.. A good feeder should be allowed time for 4 sheds before being resold.

Please share your thoughts on this subject. BP.net has enough members that breeders might think twice before selling a newbee a snake that is not ready to be sold at a show. Maybe I am just dreaming...

I've seen it enough, and I have also been behind the counter enough to be able to say this:

From a breeders perspective, I bring my hatchlings to shows. I display them.
If I have someone interested, I let them pick out a baby. BUT!!! I will tell them that they can't take it home.

Why? So that I can take it back home, have it feed three times, cared for, etc etc etc and then arrange for shipping/pickup at my own cost when the animal has been established.

Why do I do it?

Because I am able to show my babies. They are babies, absolutely. But how often do shows happen? Around me? Not often. So I bring what I have. People much rather see in person what they get, even if its puny. So I oblige.

I don't agree with selling fresh out of the egg babies. Too many problems can arise from it..

But, I can see why people do it.

While I doubt you can hope to have a standard across all sellers, I personally only sell a baby when it has eaten at least 3 times. (And had the first shed).
Most of the time my babys have shed a couple times, and eaten several regular meals before they are sold. But if a responsible person wanted to buy one earlier(say I had something real hot they wanted badly, HA!) then I might sell it to them, but only if I thought they were experianced enough to deal with a new hatchling.

Most breeders I've talked to tend to sell a baby after first shed and fed at least a few times. But I will consider that the BUYER is responsible for knowing what they are buying and how to care for it. I prefer to see babys sold ready to go to a new home, and eat regularly.

I wont sell any of my animals unless they are feeding and doing WELL (UNLESS its to a person whom i personally know with experience that WANTS it for one reason or another). If someone eats a meal, then skips... They arent going anywhere until they are feeding regularly for me, and feeding for me with enthusiasm.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Why? So that I can take it back home, have it feed three times, cared for, etc etc etc and then arrange for shipping/pickup at my own cost when the animal has been established.

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Thats a very cool ( and costly!) way of doing some serious good business. :) I like it heather! Ive not heard of this practice before! :gj:

I have yet to do any shows. But I can tell you that I don't feel comfortable letting go of any animal that hasn't eaten at least 3-5 times.

Since its my name and my reputation going with that animal I want to make sure that the buyer gets the best animal they can get. This means that they get a healthy, visualy apealing, animal with a good feeding responce.

IMHO it speaks better of the breeder to tell customers..I want to make sure my animals are the best I can sale, even if it means I may lose a sale because I don't have something available right then.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Most breeders I've talked to tend to sell a baby after first shed and fed at least a few times. But I will consider that the BUYER is responsible for knowing what they are buying and how to care for it.

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This is what I agree with, and disagree with too. It certainly is the buyers responsibility to know what they are buying and how to take care of it. BUT, IMHO it is the sellers responsibility to only sell animals that are well enough established to be sold.

i think it's wrong for a breeder/salesperson to mislead a customer, and sell an ignorant buyer a baby... however, i also think that there are many qualified keepers frequenting the shows, who are more than able to care for a hatchling.

i myself will buy hatchlings if it's what i want, and i will take the time to establish them (i like them better in my care anyway).

so i guess this one can be seen from both sides. scammers should be shot, but i don't think it's completely evil to sell babys, but i do think that conditions should apply.

I do agree with some of the points mentioned to a certain extent. For example, if Robin (sorry to name drop) wanted to buy one of my hatchlings that just shed for the first time, and ate its first meal, I would sell it to her. Why? because I know that she knows even more then me about proper care of a BP hatchling. I do however disagree with putting a hatchling thru all the stresses of being on a show table for 2 or 3 days... Maybe I am just an over protective parent... :)

Obviously sales among breeders or very experienced folks is a different ballgame. There are a large number of breeders that have absolutely no issue with selling a brand new baby to a newbee... And I think that is wrong.

I personally see both sides.

On the one hand I see nothing wrong with a breeder selling an animal out of the egg. I know several breeders who offer an "out of the egg" sale where you can buy hatchlings fresh out of the egg for a discount. All that's guaranteed is sex - up to you to get it fed and shed. The advantage is that you can often get really high end snakes for much lower prices and if you're experienced, then it shouldn't really be a problem, especially buying from someone who has quality stock to begin with.

On the other hand, selling to someone who is very inexperienced or its their first snake a snake that is "out of the egg" would be irresponsible as a breeder.

But if you're wanting to sell them right out of the egg and to someone who knows that they're doing, I have no problem with that at all.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I personally only sell a baby when it has eaten at least 3 times. (And had the first shed).

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Same here.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Same here.

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Me, too.....mostly. I have in the past sold hatchlings as "problem feeders" to others for a discount. There are some who like to work with problem hatchlings and like to take on the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I do however disagree with putting a hatchling thru all the stresses of being on a show table for 2 or 3 days... Maybe I am just an over protective parent... :)

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i agree with that as well, however, many do as i do and keep babies "in the back", not exposed to the public. they are mentioned, and if a probable buyer is really interested, one can be brought out. the most stress there is in transport, which if in tubs is not too drastic if you drive safely....

wow, i'm good at run-ons....

but yeah, don't hurt the babies! health should always be priority #1

When I finally have babies to sell I'm going to wait until they've fed about 5 times. Not only do I want the hatchling to have a good start and thrive in its new home but I think its smart for someone in my situation. I don't have a huge collection and when I do start to sell it won't be many animals. Selling a well started animal in my opinion would cut back on the likelyhood of any problems happening while in my customers care that I may have to reinburse for whether it be monetary or a replacement animal.

I think making sure they've shed 3 or 4 times before you sell them is a bit excessive, but I won't sell anything until it's shed at least once and fed on it's own three or four times (assist feedings don't count) Of course these animals are individuals and it's always a judgment call when determining the saleability of any individual animal. If I don't feel they're ready to go to another owner, I don't sell them no matter how many sheds or meals they've had.

I disagree with the practice of displaying hatchlings for show. I don't bring anything to a show that I wouldn't feel comfortable selling. I know that some of the biggest names in the business will do that, even having displays on their tables of babies actually hatching out of their eggs. Some of the biggest names will even sell them as soon as they crawl out of their shells with a belly full of yolk and everything. I guess if people feel comfortable doing that with their own animals then who am I to tell them they can't? It's just not something that I'd ever feel comfortable about doing myself.

I totally agree with you Mike. The owners of the reptile store where I buy my insect feeders from are used to buying their normal BPs right out of the egg & then feeding them a few times before selling them. So they want to buy all of my normals from me-right out of the egg. I know they would probably be able to get them started, but I can't do it. I told them my babies have to have 4 meals in them before they leave my house. I'm sure I won't be selling them for any more than where they get them out of the egg, but I'll be able to sleep at night. I truly believe that if you give reptiles in general a good start, their chances of making to a long life are much higher.

we wait until 3rd shed,and they must be eating strong,if its spotty then we wait until 4 continous meals after the 3rd shed

I will definately not sell an animal until it is established to the general public. If I am selling one to someone who I know that I know , knows (thats alot of knows yu know :P)
knows what they are doing, who is experienced and aware that their new baby needs that extra help thats the only exception.
I kept back some trouble feeders last year and still have them, though they ae feeding fine now, Im just got attched to them. But thats ok always room for one more.
point is I dont feel right sending them to a home unprepared.

I DONT KNOW MY REPTILE SHOP SOLD ME A BABY AND GUESS WHAT IT WAS JUST SHEDDING HE DIDNT EVEN HAVE IT ALL OFF YET ... I TOOK HIM HOME GOT IT OFF ... HE DIDNT EAT FOR THREE WEEKS MAN .... I TOOK HIM BACK AND GOT MOJO JOJO .... really thats bad coming from a reptile shop ... but i gotta say Mojo Jojo is doing great with me now .... they had in a cuby not bigger than a shoe box ... horrible his home now is like a jungle compared to that small thing .... tisk tisk on you bad dreeders :colbert:

When I adopted out my clutch from last year( didn't sell them since they were not a planned event ). I had a post on craigslist that I had soem eggs that htch and would soon be ready. I didn't send any ofthem out until they had a minium of 3 meals and crapped at least once. I had a guy that wanted the one I end up keeping ( since she was a refusing to eat) I told him that she was not ready to go do to the fact she refusign to eat..

I end up keeping her, after i forced fed her 2-3 time she started on her own and beeing doing great ever since. I think I was stessing out more than the snake did the entire time.
once she got the meal past the back of her outh she did the rest but trying ot get rat pinkies into her was a royal nightmare. and I don't want to gothough that again if I can prevent it!

BUt I agree a minium number of feeds should be a set rul/ requirement. I know the 3 snakes I got at the show last year had eaten at least 2 times.

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Originally Posted by harm286

they had in a cuby not bigger than a shoe box ... horrible his home now is like a jungle compared to that small thing .... tisk tisk on you bad dreeders :colbert:

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If he is a hatchling, then a shoebox is he perfect size tub for him. This is what most breeder keep their hatchlings in for the first few hunderd grams. Ball pythons normally don't do well in large enclosures.

i agree with this. they do like to be confined in close quarters, esp if they can't see traffic.

terrariums are a little more difficult, but still fine if you offer plenty of vegetation and at least two hides. ime, bp's don't like to see what's around them.

I don't put animals on my price list or on my table until they are established feeders. For me, that's at least three meals taken on their own without any coaxing.

Animals that are finicky feeders stay off my price list (and off my table) until they start acting right.

However, I do sell "unfed & unshed" to other breeders and people who know what they are doing. I ALWAYS disclose it before the sale so people know what they are getting into. Experienced ball python owners (which has a subjective definition on its best day) and breeders are wise enough to make the decision on their own: buy unfed/unshed or wait for me to get the animal feeding right.

Several of the higher-end morphs I have I took straight out of the incubator, still wet with egg yolk. I don't care. I'm impatient and don't want them falling into the hands of someone else (this does get a little competitive at times). I also accept the responsibility of doing so. I do not expect the breeder to do anything if I ever have trouble.

Regards,

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Originally Posted by Kryptonian

I kept back some trouble feeders last year and still have them, though they ae feeding fine now, Im just got attched to them. But thats ok always room for one more. Point is I dont feel right sending them to a home unprepared.

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I do the same - I held back a few that didn't want to eat and waited till they were eating regularly. I tend to sell fat babies - the pet stores I work with love that... :)

Now, I bought a pin right out of the egg at Tinley. It was the only one that matched the markings I wanted. So, I took the risk, since I have had success getting non-feeders to eat. He did start on his own after his first shed, so it wasn't a big deal. The breeder did talk to me about it and made sure I was comfortable taking him. Also told me to call if there were any problems.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

If he is a hatchling, then a shoebox is he perfect size tub for him. This is what most breeder keep their hatchlings in for the first few hunderd grams. Ball pythons normally don't do well in large enclosures.

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No this is after i returned the hatchling back ... i traded him in for my mojave male n he is a good foot something about 7 months ... and he was in something smaller than a shoe box ... i dont know i have a problem with small spaces sorry

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Originally Posted by harm286

No this is after i returned the hatchling back ... i traded him in for my mojave male n he is a good foot something about 7 months ... and he was in something smaller than a shoe box ... i dont know i have a problem with small spaces sorry

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It is fine for YOU to have a problem with small spaces, but you should try to understand that the BPs don't look at it the same as we do. Most BPs do better in a smaller enclosure than in a big roomy one.

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Originally Posted by harm286

No this is after i returned the hatchling back ... i traded him in for my mojave male n he is a good foot something about 7 months ... and he was in something smaller than a shoe box ... i dont know i have a problem with small spaces sorry

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That's a common mis-conception by many new keepers. Just because YOU as a human would want more space, doesn't mean that a ball python does.

Ball pythons prefer smaller cramped space.

I mean really its my choice and how i feel about it isn't so good..
I just feel like i gave them a better home compared to a small like shoe box with no lighting ummm and no misting or nothing ...
My snakes are fine though seem very stress free thank you though

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I have yet to do any shows. But I can tell you that I don't feel comfortable letting go of any animal that hasn't eaten at least 3-5 times.

Since its my name and my reputation going with that animal I want to make sure that the buyer gets the best animal they can get. This means that they get a healthy, visualy apealing, animal with a good feeding responce.

IMHO it speaks better of the breeder to tell customers..I want to make sure my animals are the best I can sale, even if it means I may lose a sale because I don't have something available right then.

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Still my policy almost 10 years and about 100 shows later

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Still my policy almost 10 years and about 100 shows later

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As a customer of yours, I can say that I was 100% satisfied with the hatchling you sold me as well as the entire transaction :)

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I personally only sell a baby when it has eaten at least 3 times. (And had the first shed).
Most of the time my babys have shed a couple times, and eaten several regular meals before they are sold.

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Same here. I prefer to sell a quality product that will exceed expectations for my customer, whenever possible. It's Mother Nature so sometimes she does her own thing but I like to put my customer in the best possible position to succeed. I always quality the level of reptile experience of the buyer so I know how much I need to cover and if there might need to be follow up service.