Erythriphores in ball pythons discussion

This thread is for the discussion of any facts or opinions about the presence of red pigment in ball pythons. It is commonly accepted that ball pythons only have the ability to produce varying degrees of melanin and xanthaphores, but what do you know about red pigment in balls?

Here is a scale I made that shows the possible color combinations that can be made from only melanin and xanthaphores. A lot of the cinnamon, burgundy, orange, lavenders, etc., are not shown in the 2 color scale.
http://www.jwexotics.com/misc/yellowscale.jpg

This is a scale that uses a max of 25% red and 25% black pigments. It is very limited, and does not nearly show all the possible combinations of only melanin and erythriphores, but it does seem to show some of the colors that can be seen in morphs like the snow, queen bee, soul-sucker, woma/lesser/pastel, LA, spider, etc., that can't be found in the above scale.
http://www.jwexotics.com/misc/25red.jpg

Finally is a scale that lays the 25% red scale over the complete black and yellow scale. This also only shows a fraction of the possibilities of the 3-color combinations, but it shows a lot more of the cinnamon and orange colors found in many ball pythons. There's the burnt orange found in ringers and pieds, the cinnamon's and burgundy's colors, the bright oranges seen in albino clowns, etc.
http://www.jwexotics.com/misc/yellowand25red.jpg

So what's going on? Let's see some data and hear some opinions.

Very clearly, you have far too much extra time on your hands.

I forgot to include my theories here.

1. There is a small amount of erythriphores in ball ball pythons from about 0% - 30%.

2.Xanthiphores are usually present in smaller degrees, but is occasionally found, in certain mutations and combos, in a hyper-xanthic appearance. In these instances some or all of the xanthiphores take on a red and orange hues similar to what yellow food coloring looks like before it's diluted.

I don't think that #2 would explain a lot of the colors that were named in my second scale.

I'm sure I'm butchering the spelling of these terms, but dictionary.com doesn't have them listed.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Very clearly, you have far too much extra time on your hands.

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Yep. Probably almost as much as you.

Maybe if I stopped using my free time for productive things and used it to go through all the threads I have no interest in, leaving off topic replies, taking shots at people and making mongrel snakes I could make as many friends as you do, Wes. I wish I had that kind of time, and ego, and integrity.
:salute:

Wow, it seemed like a cool conversation, but I think I'll chat on some other thread without the potshots and griping. Thanks for the scales and ideas anyway.

I don't see how this is wasting your time... I think it's interesting and want to hear some opinions too.

Where did you hear this?

It is commonly accepted that ball pythons only have the ability to produce varying degrees of melanin and xanthaphores?

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

I don't see how this is wasting your time... I think it's interesting and want to hear some opinions too.

Where did you hear this?

It is commonly accepted that ball pythons only have the ability to produce varying degrees of melanin and xanthaphores?

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Well, it just seemed like these are the only two pigments commonly mentioned when it comes to balls. There are amelanistic and axanthic balls, but like Tim Bailey said in another thread that there is no mention of anery balls. I just don't ever see anyone mentioning erythriphore, or anyone working with selectively breeding for high red balls when that is usually a common thing in species that have erythrispore as an option to work with.

I must apologize. I don't use smileys and I forgot that sometimes I come across as other than I meant.

It was in jest.

I actually think it's pretty cool.

I honestly did not mean anything negative.

You have my most humble and abject apology for the unintended insult.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I must apologize. I don't use smileys and I forgot that sometimes I come across as other than I meant.

It was in jest.

I actually think it's pretty cool.

I honestly did not mean anything negative.

You have my most humble and abject apology for the unintended insult.

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Thanks for clarifying. I got carried away with my post, so sorry for that.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Thanks for clarifying. I got carried away with my post, so sorry for that.

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No worries.

So back to the topic at hand, In another thread I had mentioned that I thought axanthics should be called hypo-xanthics. My reasoning was that since they brown out over time, there must be some xanthiphore involved. Tim said he thought the browning was due to erythrispore rather than xanthiphore. I think that is a real possibility, and would explain a lot of what we see in all the different ball pythons. That is what got me thinking about this.

As a graphic designer who has spent a lot of time taking two color jobs for print and turning them into the most colorful pieces possible, I learned a lot about the outcomes of mixing different values of certain colors together. Especially mixing black with a primary or secondary color. I learned that mixing all the possible combinations of black and yellow pigments gives us shades of yellow, gray and dull greens that always reminded me of pea soup.

I know Chris Simone was working with a possible recessive project he named "Olive green". Now my thinking is that if a project like that proved out, it would be a true anery ball python. That's assuming there is red pigment at play in ball pythons. Any thoughts?

I have never been under the impression that balls lack red pigment.

Just a question, and I have no idea what i'm talking about. Could the pinks we see in the light balls be their blood? Maybe their scales are semi-transparent and that's where the pink comes from? Isn't that why Albino's appear pink, because their skin is transparent (no pigment)? It could be the same way with the lighter balls.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I have never been under the impression that balls lack red pigment.

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I was always under that impression, but I don't remember why. Am I just wrong here? Is it common acceptance that ball pythons have erythriphor? If so why don't we ever see people selectively breeding for high red balls like we see for high yellow, or high contrast red snows? I would also think that an olive green project would be named an anery project if this was common knowledge. If this is the case, sorry for starting this thread, but at least I might learn some things. Please post your opinions or knowledge for me.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Just a question, and I have no idea what i'm talking about. Could the pinks we see in the light balls be their blood? Maybe their scales are semi-transparent and that's where the pink comes from? Isn't that why Albino's appear pink, because their skin is transparent (no pigment)? It could be the same way with the lighter balls.

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I thought about that. A bunch of lucies, pieds, spieds, lesser pieds, etc are solid white after just a few sheds, so any pink you see on a ball is not likely due to transparent scales.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I was always under that impression, but I don't remember why. Am I just wrong here? Is it common acceptance that ball pythons have erythriphor? If so why don't we ever see people selectively breeding for high red balls like we see for high yellow, or high contrast red snows? I would also think that an olive green project would be named an anery project if this was common knowledge. If this is the case, sorry for starting this thread, but at least I might learn some things. Please post your opinions or knowledge for me.

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I think one of the big reasons is because there isn't as nearly as high of a percentage of ball breeders working on selective breeding as there are with other species. Let's face it, the majority of people out there breeding balls are just throwing whatever they can get together without any thought towards improving the looks. On top of that, the people that ARE doing some selective breeding, are more than likely working on multiple morph combo's, which always has a chance of muddying up whatever selective breeding you've done with the single morph.
As far as the reds go, I know there's a few people working with the burgundies, but don't really hear much about them. I think I remember reading somewhere that Kevin at NERD has been trying to selectively breed more red coloration into the ball pythons -- I believe that had something to do with the infernos.

I think if you mean getting to the same degree as an anery corn, corns are naturally a reddish color, which means they have a lot to work with.

The most red's we see are in caramels and the toffee ball. I think that is just about the limit for balls. Burgundy's are gorgeous in my opinion, but a lot of people dont see that much of a difference to pursue breeding for it.

You can only strip away so many colors and dilute so much before you're back to a white animal.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

I think one of the big reasons is because there isn't as nearly as high of a percentage of ball breeders working on selective breeding as there are with other species. Let's face it, the majority of people out there breeding balls are just throwing whatever they can get together without any thought towards improving the looks. On top of that, the people that ARE doing some selective breeding, are more than likely working on multiple morph combo's, which always has a chance of muddying up whatever selective breeding you've done with the single morph.
As far as the reds go, I know there's a few people working with the burgundies, but don't really hear much about them. I think I remember reading somewhere that Kevin at NERD has been trying to selectively breed more red coloration into the ball pythons -- I believe that had something to do with the infernos.

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I agree and understand that balls are sort of a different game altogether than most species when it comes to selective breeding. But there were decades where there wasn't much to work with (before the explosion of morphs) where I would think that selectively breeding would have resulted in some high reds, at least to the point where I would have heard that term when talking about ball pythons.

As far as Kevin working on high reds, is that through selective breeding, or is it through trying for 5 way combos using morphs that show a lot of oranges and pinks?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I think if you mean getting to the same degree as an anery corn, corns are naturally a reddish color, which means they have a lot to work with.

The most red's we see are in caramels and the toffee ball. I think that is just about the limit for balls. Burgundy's are gorgeous in my opinion, but a lot of people dont see that much of a difference to pursue breeding for it.

You can only strip away so many colors and dilute so much before you're back to a white animal.

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But if you pushed for red by selective breeding, you should be able to get a high contrast red and white snow, or super high contrast albino within a decade or so, and I haven't seen it attempted other than so called high contrast albinos, which don't look any darker than they did 8 years ago. Just look at what we've done with selectively breeding normal leopard geckos. We have taken a dull yellow animal and got to the point where the dull yellow is extreme orange. Is it accepted as being able to be done with balls, and just not getting worked on, or do we just not know?

Edit: You also said that caramels seem to push the limit of red compared to most other morphs. If that was true, and it was due to erythriphore, why does everyone say that a homozygous albino homozygous caramel would probably just have the phenotype of a normal albino. Wouldn't it be assumed that it would be a bright orange and white snake with much higher contrast that a normal albino?

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

But if you pushed for red by selective breeding, you should be able to get a high contrast red and white snow, or super high contrast albino within a decade or so, and I haven't seen it attempted other than so called high contrast albinos. Just look at what we've done with selectively breeding normal leopard geckos. We have taken a dull yellow animal and got to the point where the dull yellow is extreme orange. Is it accepted as being able to be done with balls, and just not getting worked on, or do we just not know?

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But I think the problem/hardship lays in the natural saturation of reds in balls isn't that high to begin with.

Also, a snow is an albino and axanthic, two genes that STRIP red coloring. You'd be working against the gene's trying to make it redder. :confused:


There isn't a "proven" gene out there that stripes just black and yellow besides the the toffee ball that VPI is working with.

I think THAT gene could potentially be worked to making a high contrast red animal, but I can't see it being done very well with any morph genes out their now, since almost all of them strip red and yellow, or red and black together.

Now the burgundy is supposedly a proven line, I can see that being worked with, and perhaps crossed into the toffee line to create a fantastically red animal. ;)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

But I think the problem/hardship lays in the natural saturation of reds in balls isn't that high to begin with.

Also, a snow is an albino and axanthic, two genes that STRIP red coloring. You'd be working against the gene's trying to make it redder. :confused:


There isn't a "proven" gene out there that stripes just black and yellow besides the the toffee ball that VPI is working with.

I think THAT gene could potentially be worked to making a high contrast red animal, but I can't see it being done very well with any morph genes out their now, since almost all of them strip red and yellow, or red and black together.

Now the burgundy is supposedly a proven line, I can see that being worked with, and perhaps crossed into the toffee line to create a fantastically red animal. ;)

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Isn't the Urban Python the only one with a homozygous toffee ball, or does VPI have one too? I guess you are right about amelanism and axanthism stripping red to a degree. I hadn't thought about that. There are obviously ball pythons that appear to have red. Is it, or is it not known if this is from erythriphore? If it's a fact that it is there, no matter how small the quantity, we should be able to selectively breed for it, even without the jump start of using a recessive, red increasing morph.

What's the consensus? Do ball pythons have any erythriphor, or is it not known. I always thought that the consensus was that there were only two pigments involved, which I always questioned.

I am searching for phaeomelanin, in regards to reptiles. So far, I have this...
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/...ion/id/1734677

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Mc1r - Non-mammalian Mc1r

Mc1r has a slightly different function in cold-blooded animals such as fish, amphibians and reptiles. Here α-melanocyte stimulating hormone activation of Mc1r results in the dispersion of eumelanin filled melanosomes throughout the interior of pigment cells (called melanophores). This gives the skin of the animal a darker hue and often occurs in response to changes in mood or environment. Such a physiological color change implicates Mc1r as a key mediator of adaptive cryptic coloration. The role of Asip binding to Mc1r in regulating this adaptation is unclear, however in teleoest fish at least, functional antagonism is provided by melanin concentrating hormone. This signals through its receptor to aggregate the melanosomes towards a small area in the centre of the melanophore, resulting in the animal having a lighter overall appearance. [1] Cephalopods generate a similar, albeit more dramatic, pigmentary effect using muscles to rapidly stretch and relax their pigmented chromatophores. Mc1r does not appear to play a role in the rapid and spectacular colour changes observed in these invertebrates.

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Biol Rev Camb Philos Soc. 2004 Aug;79(3):583-610.Click here to read Links
Individual colour patches as multicomponent signals.
Grether GF, Kolluru GR, Nersissian K.

Department of Organismic Biology, Ecology and Evolution, University of California, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1606, USA. ggrether@ucla.edu

Colour patches are complex traits, the components of which may evolve independently through a variety of mechanisms. Although usually treated as simple, two-dimensional characters and classified as either structural or pigmentary, in reality colour patches are complicated, three-dimensional structures that often contain multiple pigment types and structural features. The basic dermal chromatophore unit of fishes, reptiles and amphibians consists of three contiguous cell layers. Xanthophores and erythrophores in the outermost layer contain carotenoid and pteridine pigments that absorb short-wave light; iridophores in the middle layer contain crystalline platelets that reflect light back through the xanthophores; and melanophores in the basal layer contain melanins that absorb light across the spectrum. Changes in any one component of a chromatophore unit can drastically alter the reflectance spectrum produced, and for any given adaptive outcome (e.g. an increase in visibility), there may be multiple biochemical or cellular routes that evolution could take, allowing for divergent responses by different populations or species to similar selection regimes. All of the mechanisms of signal evolution that previously have been applied to single ornaments (including whole colour patches) could potentially be applied to the individual components of colour patches. To reach a complete understanding of colour patch evolution, however, it may be necessary to take an explicitly multi-trait approach. Here, we review multiple trait evolution theory and the basic mechanisms of colour production in fishes, reptiles and amphibians, and use a combination of computer simulations and empirical examples to show how multiple trait evolution theory can be applied to the components of single colour patches. This integrative perspective on animal colouration opens up a host of new questions and hypotheses. We offer specific, testable functional hypotheses for the most common pigmentary (carotenoid, pteridine and melanin) and structural components of vertebrate colour patches.

PMID: 15366764 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I found this:

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Erythrism- Having red skin and scales caused by a lack of black pigments (eumelanin), which allows the red pigment (pheomelanin) to dominate the color of the appearance (Allaby, 1991). Abnormal or excessive amount of red coloring (Holmes, 1979). The occurrence of unusual amounts of redness in an individual or population as compared to the normal pattern of the species (Peters, 1964).

Erythrochromism- See erythrism.

Erythrocystic- See erythrism.

Erythrophores- Reddish-purple pigment-bearing cells (Holmes, 1979). Cells containing carotenes or yellow pigment(Bentley, 1982). Xanthophores that appear red (Bechtel, 1985).

Erythrophore- Red chromatophore (Bechtel, 1985).

Eumelanin- A form of melanin that is black or dark brown (Mattison, 1986). Black or brown melanin (Bechtel, 1985). See phaeomelanin.

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on Graziani's website at http://www.grazianireptiles.com/glossary.htm

It looks like erythrophores are xanthophores that have a red or purple appearance. That doesn't get me very far, but it looks like whether or not it is xanthophores or erythrophores causing the browning of axanthics, the technical term should be hypo-xanthic, since no matter what causes it, it's some kind of xanthophore. Back to google...