Sable vs Chocolate

According to NERDs site under available animals, these are the "same." Never really thought about it but I guess it would be equivalent to Mojo Lesser Butter being similar.

Anyone ever heard of this?

According to Kevin McCurley's book the Super Chocolate is a striped brown snake. But it says the het Chocolate is still being kept a secret.

And the super sable is just an even darker version of the sable.

AFAIK they are different alleles and the outcomes are completely different in regards to the Homozygous snake.

"Why buy a chocolate for three times the money when you can buy a sable and make the same combos"

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ava...hp?product=574

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

According to Kevin McCurley's book the Super Chocolate is a striped brown snake. But it says the het Chocolate is still being kept a secret.

And the super sable is just an even darker version of the sable.

AFAIK they are different alleles and the outcomes are completely different in regards to the Homozygous snake.

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chocolates are a proven co-dom morph there are not hets

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Originally Posted by FIREball

"Why buy a chocolate for three times the money when you can buy a sable and make the same combos"

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ava...hp?product=574

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chocolates make differnt combos, a super chocolate is different then a super sable, and chocolate pinstripes are a lot better looking that sable pin too
they are similar but they are two seperate morphs! check out bhbs chocolates they look way different then any sable on the market and there supers are amazing!!

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

chocolates are a proven co-dom morph there are not hets

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Chocolate is the Het form or the co-dom and the Super is the homo form or the dominate.

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Originally Posted by FIREball

"Why buy a chocolate for three times the money when you can buy a sable and make the same combos"

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ava...hp?product=574

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Also Kevin McCurley is the owner of Nerd and the author of 'The Complete Ball Python'. He lists in his book that they are different, but his site claims they are the same?

I think he means the hypermelanism in both will alter combos the same.

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

Chocolate is the Het form or the co-dom and the Super is the homo form or the dominate.

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right i understand that, but he said het for chocolate, not super chocolate

Well I dont see where it is listed as being the same on the site that ad that you linked us to while is obviously on the NERD site is not being sold by NERD. Look at the user name "evilmorphgod"

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

right i understand that, but he said het for chocolate, not super chocolate

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I am the one that said it. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

According to Kevin McCurley's book the Super Chocolate is a striped brown snake. But it says the het Chocolate is still being kept a secret.

And the super sable is just an even darker version of the sable.

AFAIK they are different alleles and the outcomes are completely different in regards to the Homozygous snake.

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And I was referring to the Heterozygous form. No matter if its recessive or co-dom, there is still a Heterozygous form and a Homozygous form. One is visual the other is not.

I said Het Chocolate, not Het for Chocolate.

Anyway, I know what I wrote. :P

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Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

Well I dont see where it is listed as being the same on the site that ad that you linked us to while is obviously on the NERD site is not being sold by NERD. Look at the user name "evilmorphgod"

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"evilmorphgod" is Kevin, the owner of NERD.

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Originally Posted by LGL

"evilmorphgod" is Kevin, the owner of NERD.

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Ahh gotcha I just saw some ads actually said NERD and a few had that as a username.

Yeah. I can see how that is confusing. "evilmorphgod" is Kevin, "KLG" is Kara, and I'm not sure if "NERD" would be for employees or what.

I've been trying to learn about chocolate and sable for a while now as I've got a line of similar animals that I’m trying to identify. Someone who had worked with them once posted that they thought chocolate and sable might be alleles (two different mutations of the same gene). Sort of like an earlier poster compared to the relationship between lesser and mojave. I don't remember if they had breedings to prove it (like a sable\\chocolate always producing only chocolates and sables but no normals) or if it was just a hunch. Both are considered co-dominant mutations with the heterozygous forms being chocolate or sable and the homozygous (not really correct to call "dominant" as the mutation type is still co-dominant) forms being super chocolate or super sable respectively.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I've been trying to learn about chocolate and sable for a while now as I've got a line of similar animals that I’m trying to identify. Someone who had worked with them once posted that they thought chocolate and sable might be alleles (two different mutations of the same gene). Sort of like an earlier poster compared to the relationship between lesser and mojave. I don't remember if they had breedings to prove it (like a sable\\chocolate always producing only chocolates and sables but no normals) or if it was just a hunch. Both are considered co-dominant mutations with the heterozygous forms being chocolate or sable and the homozygous (not really correct to call "dominant" as the mutation type is still co-dominant) forms being super chocolate or super sable respectively.

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whats up randy its mario from empireballpython, i got that cool male from you at the show a year ago, and hes really starting to look impressive, i have had a couple big breeders say that he is almost 100% sure hes a chocolate, just thought you might like to know that!!

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

chocolates make differnt combos, a super chocolate is different then a super sable, and chocolate pinstripes are a lot better looking that sable pin too
they are similar but they are two seperate morphs! check out bhbs chocolates they look way different then any sable on the market and there supers are amazing!!

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I can't say that I agree with you at all. I believe that a Super Sable Pin will look identical to a Camo Ball (Super Chocolate Pin). Hence the reason I have been working on this project for 2 years now. Last year my female didn't go, so I am trying the Sable Pin again. On that note, I would sure love for you to direct me to a picture of the Sable Pin you speak of, as I don't know of anyone that has done that yet.

Excelent question Jeremy. Hopefully in the next few years, we will find some more definitive answers to that question.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

I can't say that I agree with you at all. I believe that a Super Sable Pin will look identical to a Camo Ball (Super Chocolate Pin). Hence the reason I have been working on this project for 2 years now. Last year my female didn't go, so I am trying the Sable Pin again. On that note, I would sure love for you to direct me to a picture of the Sable Pin you speak of, as I don't know of anyone that has done that yet.

Excelent question Jeremy. Hopefully in the next few years, we will find some more definitive answers to that question.

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so your telling me a sable looks the same to a chocolate like the one on bhb, and if there hasnt been a sable pin made how do you know what a super sable pin will look, so your saying your right with no proof yet!!!

finally nice to hear some "chocolate talk"...

... I bought a 2008 male a few months ago.

Brandon

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Originally Posted by BrandonsBalls

finally nice to hear some "chocolate talk"...

... I bought a 2008 male a few months ago.

Brandon

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Let's see it! :)

i personally like chocolates a lot, i dont like the sables as much because they just dont look as good as chocolates, they are deffinitly seperate morphs, atleast good examples of chocolates are different then sables, i have seen ads for chocolates that look like sables, but if you really look at a sable and (i know i keep using this example its just really good) a bhb chocolate, they are completly different, sables are more granitey and chocolates are very dark and diffined, plus a super sable looks nothing like a super chocolate, look up any pics of super sables then go to snakebytes tv and watch the ball python mutations episode and see there super chocolate, tottaly different, thats hard evidence!!

Hi Mario. I'm glad to hear that male is looking good to you. I just didn't have the experience with them to know what is what and while I did get a few helpful replies to posted pics trying to ID him before the sale I just wasn't sure. Actually I offered to send him to the guy who proved the mom (whatever it is, we are calling Garcia as not 100% sure it's the same as chocolate) for him to breed to his half sisters but we weren’t sure he was worth the shipping fee. That founder pet store female of mine does seem to produce a range of weird offspring from some very striking to some only slight variations from normal. From the few I did keep it doesn't surprise me that age would help. One of these day's I'll have to find time to get the camera out and try to get some pictures that represent the Garcia well and get some more feedback as to if it might be the same as chocolate or sable.

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

so your telling me a sable looks the same to a chocolate like the one on bhb, and if there hasnt been a sable pin made how do you know what a super sable pin will look, so your saying your right with no proof yet!!!

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Slow down speedy. Go back and read my post again. I said I believe that the Super Sable Pin will look identical as a Camo Ball. With that said, I still have yet to see the picture of the Sable Pin that you said does not look as good as a Chocolate Pin. Everyone is entitled to opinion, and I decided to share mine in this post. We shall see later in the season what the Sable gene will do to a Pin (unless you show us your picture before that).

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Originally Posted by Louis Kirkland

Let's see it! :)

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Sorry for the late response, but here is my chocolate next to a pastel:

http://www.b-p.org/balls/chocolate_and_pastel.jpg

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Originally Posted by BrandonsBalls

Sorry for the late response, but here is my chocolate next to a pastel:

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NICE! Thanks for posting the pic. What are your breeding plans for him?

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Originally Posted by Louis Kirkland

NICE! Thanks for posting the pic. What are your breeding plans for him?

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nooooooooooo idea (yet)

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Originally Posted by Louis Kirkland

NICE! Thanks for posting the pic. What are your breeding plans for him?

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...one thing I plan to do is make more and pair him with about 2 normal fem's.

Here's an older shot of our 06 import female chocolate.
http://www.centralontarioexotics.com.../chocolate.jpg
We bred a bumblebee to her this year but she was a bit thin at 1800g and didn't produce eggs unfortunately. We believe this to be the same as BHBs chocolates and with any luck we will get to see some crosses next year.

-John

Anyone work with both Bell Chocolate and BHB Chocolate? Are there three separate morphs between those two and Sable or are some the same? Anyone actually cross any of them yet so we can eventually get breeding results from the combos to confirm if we have an allele complex here? I've read that even genetic granites might be related.

What about the Garcia Chocolate? I think they are the nicest of all the Chocolate Variations.

Unfortunately three years later I'm still trying to figure all this out. I think there are some keepers with BHB, Bell, and Garcia so hopefully we can get some new news soon as to if these are the same or different. I tried to trade for a Bell X BHB super last year but didn't work it out so for now I only have the Garcia line. Actually there is even a chance I have a 2nd gene from Dan Garcia's original breeding of my founding Garcia female to a dinker male I think he got from RDR. Lots of fun confusing work to try and figure it all out.