Do NOT feed Goldfish. A Must read for fish-eating snake keepers!

I wrote this in an effort to save as many beloved thamnophis and nerodia as I possibly can! Yes, I REALLY, TRUELY care about the health of your snake, no matter how big or small... this much.

Also, anyone who ever has ANY questions or issues concerning garter, ribbon, or water snakes... you can come STRAIGHT to me.

I am writing this in the name of my number 1 most favorite animal in the world: garter snakes!! I own over 50 garters... they are the world to me. This is some very important information that 90% of new garter snake, ribbon snake, and water snake owners, as well as many other aquatic snake species keepers are not familiar with.

Feeder goldfish, and also their counterpart, rosy reds (aka tuffies, flathead minnows, and remember these come in both pink and brown colors) and catfish contain an enzyme known as thiaminase. Feeding your snakes these fish will result in horrible things down the road. it can even take years, or it can take just a few months, but thiaminase kills either way. This enzyme prevents the absorbtion of Vitamin B1, also known as Thiamine. Over time, not being able to absorb this vitamin due to ingesting fish containing thiaminase, they will start having seizures, losing voluntary muscle control, crawling funny... and this eventually results in death. Sadly, I expierienced this myself, as when I was younger and had no idea, I too fed my garters goldfish. None of my first garters are alive today because of that, and they should be!!

Many ask if it's acceptable to supplement these fish with a vitamin powder loaded with Vitamin B1. The answer is no, because the enzyme literally prevents the snake from absorbing any at all!

There are other options out there if you snake is finicky and wants fish, and believe it or not they are at you local supermarket! Trout, tialpia and salmon are all available at most grocery stores, and you can buy a pound or two and cut it into minnow-sized strips, and it usually comes out to about 2 cents a piece where as most people pay 10 cents or more for one dinky feeder fish. If you fish... save some bluegills and cut them up as well. You can then portion all the pieces out into meals and store them in your freezer, and thaw out a new portion whenever you need to feed!! Freeze all of it for at least a week before use to help kill any parasites that may be lurking! This does not kill all parasites, but it can help. Not only is it cheaper in the long run, but it is saving your garter's life. Note: don't buy catfish, or smelt! (which i mistakenly for a while thought were safe) they also contain thiaminase! You can use feeder guppies if you are having trouble getting your snake to eat dead pieces of fish. Put the fish strips in with the guppies in the water bowl and as the garter is fishing, he will inevitably grab a strip. But please... make sure they are GUPPIES... some pet stores will give you rosies when you ask for guppies! See the pictures at the end of the article. There are also recipes out there that involve using filets of fishes, gelatin, and vitamin/calcium supplements. I use these as a part of my feeding regimen with great success!

I must also stress though, that if you have a garter snake, a varied diet is a must!!! Most of us experienced garter keepers wean our garters as babies onto pinky parts, easily done by chopping up fish and worms and pinkies and mixing it all together in a little dish. Over time you increase how much pinky is in the dish and they pick it up very quicky! I find that many adult garters will take a pinky for the first time out of pure curiosity. If not, usually all you have to do is rub the pinky on some fish or a worm! Beware that too many rodents will give you an obese garter snake. The best possible diet for your garters is a mixed diet consisting of small appropriately sized rodents or pieces, Safe fish (salmon, tilapia, trout, guppies), and eathworms or nightcrawlers. (don't use red wrigglers, those little trout bait worms that have a reddish tint and rings and secrete nasty orange slime, they are toxic). Remember to supplement any food items that are not a whole prey item with a vitamin/calcium supplement.

In the wild a garter snake will eat just about every day. They relish amphibians such as small frogs and tadpoles, and also forage for fish, earthworms, and possibly the occasional rodent's or even bird's nest. Garter snakes have a very fast metabolism, so it is recommended that you feed at least twice a week. I feed small portions 3 to 4 times a week, that's basically every other day. I make the rounds and offer each snake one food item of whatever I have that day, I alternate between nightcrawlers, fish gelatin, rodents, strips of trout and occasionally frog legs!

I hope someone out there finds this information useful... because if you are feeding your snake dangerous thiaminase containing fish, you will stop if you truly care about your snake! As pet owners it is our responsibility to see that they get the very best care and a proper and safe diet, you wouldn't slowly poison your dog, would you??? The responsible thing to do is to drop the feeder fish idea and save your snake's life while you still can. The goldfish diet is why many pet garter/ribbon snakes live shorter lifespans and never reach their real size potential in captivity. A healthy robust female garter of many subspecies, particularly Easterns, Plains, Wanderings, Red Sideds and Checkereds, can often approach 3.5 feet and be a thick in the middle as a large corn snake, as well as give birth to over 50 babies!


NOW here are some pictures to help you identify what the heck I am talking about.


These are feeder guppies. they are SAFE for your snake.

Males

http://courses.washington.edu/fish34...es/guppies.jpg

Females

http://www.fishforever.co.uk/images/guppy.jpg





These are Rosy Reds, a.k.a "tuffies", fathead minnows... etc... they are NOT SAFE for your snake.

Gold variety

http://www.fishpondinfo.com/rosyred1.jpg


Brown

http://www.dnr.wi.gov/org/water/wm/w...20(female).jpg


These are smelt a.k.a. Silversides, these are NOT SAFE for your snake

http://www.fisheries.vims.edu/ctils/...ilversides.jpg

These are goldfish: These are NOT SAFE for your snake

http://www.msstate.edu/dept/srac/baitgold.jpg

These are Red Wrigglers, a.k.a. driftworms, trout worms, a toxic species of worm that often causes snakes to vomit immediately after eating. They are identified by reddish colored distinctive rings that earthworms and nightcrawlers lack. When provoked they secrete a foul smelling orange liquid. Notice the colored RINGS. Snakes who eat these for a prolonged period of time and keep them down often spontaneously die.

http://www.songbirdgarden.com/store/...dWorms-3sm.jpg

**Update**

I have an important news bulletin.... I was misinformed!!! SILVERSIDES are NOT a true smelt, and do NOT contain thiaminase. SO, they actually are safe for our snakes to consume. I am one happy camper because my snakes really really LOVE silversides and I was so upset when I was told they had thiaminase in them.

Thank you very much! That was both informative and easy to follow.

Are you going to post your specific 'diet' that you use for garters the one with gel and vitamin supplements? I'd be interested in reading it.

:bow:You are the garter snake queen! :bow:

This should really be a sticky, theres a ton of info in here that took a lot of time to put together. Really good post! :cool:

I vote sticky:bow: Its the same with turtles as well.

I highly recommend this become a sticky. If I had gotten a garter, I would have had NO IDEA.

Thank you for this information, it was very useful and important. I'm sure it will save a lot of trouble.

Real quick, if someone had been feeding their snakes the wrong things, what would you suggest they do to help the snake re-absorb the vitamin? Are there any supplements that you think could help?

Obviously, immediately switch food items, but I was just curious if there was anything else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I highly recommend this become a sticky. If I had gotten a garter, I would have had NO IDEA.

Thank you for this information, it was very useful and important. I'm sure it will save a lot of trouble.

Real quick, if someone had been feeding their snakes the wrong things, what would you suggest they do to help the snake re-absorb the vitamin? Are there any supplements that you think could help?

Obviously, immediately switch food items, but I was just curious if there was anything else.

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Simply switching food items and occasionally using a vitamin supplement. The enzyme will not stick around forever. Slowly it will go away and the body will be able to start resuming regular absorbtion. Thiamine deficiency convulsions can SOMETIMES be reversed with injections at the vet, but i do not know much about all that because I tend to avoid issues with thiamine altogether.

I also should note, there are some debates out there about silversides, smelt, etc. The difference is not 100% decided upon, and although I know that the ocean nutrition silversides and the smelt at MY grocery store are the SAME exact fish, and that these are supposed to contain thiaminase, there are other varieties or smelt/ silversides in different species and much is confused because of common names. The fact is though, that those fishes are not covered on the thiaminase registry tables and quite frankly, I am not taking any unknown risks when I can simply use what I KNOW to be safe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by truthsdeceit

Thank you very much! That was both informative and easy to follow.

Are you going to post your specific 'diet' that you use for garters the one with gel and vitamin supplements? I'd be interested in reading it.

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I am not sure if you saw it but I did post it up in this same forum. :)

Oh man, that was a great post!! I vote sticky as well.

If only I'd seen this a few years ago... then maybe my red-checkered garter would still be around. :( I gave him goldies, rosies AND wigglers (as well as nightcrawlers)!! Always wondered why he regurged the worms. He was with me a year, and I thought (at the time) that was a good length of time for a garter.

Well, if I ever get another garter snake I'll know what to do! Thanks!

I vote sticky as well!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aSnakeLovinBabe

I am not sure if you saw it but I did post it up in this same forum. :)

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No I didn't but I've found it now. Thanks. :)

Both this thread and the one with the diet have been stuck. Thank you so much for these two very valuable threads. :)

Great post!

there is lots of info on garters yet most do not say types of fish that are safe, but they go off to mention that there is types of fish they should not be fed.

I have an important news bulletin.... I was misinformed!!! SILVERSIDES are NOT a true smelt, and do NOT contain thiaminase. SO, they actually are safe for our snakes to consume. I am one happy camper because my snakes really really LOVE silversides and I was so upset when I was told they had thiaminase in them. If someone could please allow me to edit the post and change my article I would greatly appreciate it!!!

And i truely appreciate the Stickies!!!:D:D:D

Hi,

Edited the update in for you - if you would like the wording changed just PM the changes to any member of staff. :gj:


dr del

i recall a lake in florida that had a mass aligator die off due to the only forage being gizzard shad that are high in thiaminace.

Thanks for the post. Back in the late 80s, I had a garter that I hand-fed goldies to. Although it eventually died, it wasn't from the goldies.

Well, this post leaves me greatly frustrated and confused. I was told to stay away from goldfish, but minnows were alright, and guppies were bad (high in fat, low in protein, or so I was told). Reading this leaves me confused and annoyed since the minnows I bought are evidently the bad kind ($10 for 3 dozen. Ow.).

That and it leaves me back at square one of having no food source for my watersnake. Since he's small (roughly a foot) I now have no idea what to fed him since most of the information I've read/been told conflicts, except for the goldfish bit.

So what do I feed?

Hi,

You should check out the sticky below this one. :whisper:


dr del

Problem is, Levi will only eat out of his water dish (he's not exactly what one would call tame). So, unless it doesn't dissolve in water, I'm still at square one.

Hi,

You'd probably have to ask to be certain but I don't think the set gelatin would dissolve in cool water?

I would however feed and test it in a seperate bowl to the water supply to prevent contamination of the drinking water.

But asking the chef would be my next step. :D


dr del

Haha. Feeding in any other container but the home cage results in no eating by Levi. He's a picky little thing. Once he finishes his shed, I'll be seeing if I can get him to eat by hand using some guppies.

Hi,

I meant just placing a feeding bowl in his normal tank. :)

Have you shared any pictures of him with us or are you waiting till after he has shed?


dr del

I'll try the feed bowl bit as well. I don't have any pictures up of him, but I'll go toss some up of him from when he shed last month.

:snake: I have a Checkered Garter Hatchling and had been told By The Pet Store that Rosy Reds were safe! I searched to be sure and bam! They aren't! Thanks for the help!:snake:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aSnakeLovinBabe

eds, a.k.a "tuffies", fathead minnows... etc... they are NOT SAFE for your snake.

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I've used this thread a lot and love it but at the pet store, a lady had had garters for over 15 years and fed them on tuffies and they live for a long time on them. Also, garters only live for around 8 years and it can take that long or longer for a lack of Vitamin B1 to take effect.

As for your problem with your snake, mine will only eat if I put the pinky on his feeding rock and leave him alone for a few hours or so. He also might not take to whatever your feeding him. We tried earthworms, fish fillet, and feeder fish before we tried a pinky. The first food he actually took.

I am a bit confused to tell you frankly
But the post is very informative ..

My situation is this , I own a female corn snake , she eat defrost mice i store and give her once a week
My problem is that I usually buy a stock of those (say 10 or so) once those are finished I need to drive a bit far to buy another stock for the future
As local pet stores in my area do not hold small mice or rodents fit for my snake size (only big grown ones which are way to big)

Has it happened I was searching for a comb for my dog and was in such a store that did not hold rodents of any sort fit for my snake , so I generally asked a girl there which was very nice if they have mice or rodunts and she said they do not hold them , but... guppies (fish) can do fine for my sort of snake...so I bought one (the price is equal to the price I buy small rodents ) and took it home.

I then tried to give it to the snake in a small flat bowl but she (the snake) did not seem to understand it was food...so I took it out...and she smelled it but did not eat it
So..I took it back to the snake water dish , and left it there, when I came back the fish was gone , I am quite certian she ate it as it was shown on her and the fish was gone..

That led me to think ... why not breed guppies ? and be done with the endless and useless runs to the pet store?
But I did see that guppies contain "presumed to be low thiaminase content." so they do? or not?
I saw this at those searches:
http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co...p/t-89249.html
And in here it says: "Bacteria producing Thiaminase have been found in Guppies - Poecilia reticulata."
If you search this Url for key word:'Guppies' : http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Thiaminase
And this one said it is in small doses: http://www.gartersnake.info/articles...thiaminase.php
so searching on and on...my question is:

Is it safe to give my corn snake > Guppies (fish) for the long run ?
Can you or any one let me know?
Would appreciate a direct feedback with an educated and studied answer..
thx

any update?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mor

I am a bit confused to tell you frankly
But the post is very informative ..

My situation is this , I own a female corn snake , she eat defrost mice i store and give her once a week
My problem is that I usually buy a stock of those (say 10 or so) once those are finished I need to drive a bit far to buy another stock for the future
As local pet stores in my area do not hold small mice or rodents fit for my snake size (only big grown ones which are way to big)

Has it happened I was searching for a comb for my dog and was in such a store that did not hold rodents of any sort fit for my snake , so I generally asked a girl there which was very nice if they have mice or rodunts and she said they do not hold them , but... guppies (fish) can do fine for my sort of snake...so I bought one (the price is equal to the price I buy small rodents ) and took it home.

I then tried to give it to the snake in a small flat bowl but she (the snake) did not seem to understand it was food...so I took it out...and she smelled it but did not eat it
So..I took it back to the snake water dish , and left it there, when I came back the fish was gone , I am quite certian she ate it as it was shown on her and the fish was gone..

That led me to think ... why not breed guppies ? and be done with the endless and useless runs to the pet store?
But I did see that guppies contain "presumed to be low thiaminase content." so they do? or not?
I saw this at those searches:
http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co...p/t-89249.html
And in here it says: "Bacteria producing Thiaminase have been found in Guppies - Poecilia reticulata."
If you search this Url for key word:'Guppies' : http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Thiaminase
And this one said it is in small doses: http://www.gartersnake.info/articles...thiaminase.php
so searching on and on...my question is:

Is it safe to give my corn snake > Guppies (fish) for the long run ?
Can you or any one let me know?
Would appreciate a direct feedback with an educated and studied answer..
thx

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mor

I am a bit confused to tell you frankly
so searching on and on...my question is:

Is it safe to give my corn snake > Guppies (fish) for the long run ?
Can you or any one let me know?
Would appreciate a direct feedback with an educated and studied answer..
thx

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I found this page useful:
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?is...03325X&page=64
(it says for fox and mink diets, but essentially, this can be used for snakes as well)
I would stick to a mice diet. It's much healthier for a corn, and it's thier natural diet, unlike a diet based on fish. Your snake cannot grow and live it's healthiest life if you feed it fish most times than mice. Please, for your snake's sake, stick to mice.
BUT if you HAVE to feed it fish, the link above is very informative.

The first list on that page, "Alewife-Whitefish" lists fish known to contain Thiaminase. Fathead minnows(Rosy reds) and Carp(Goldfish) are on the first list (what you would typically get as "feeders" at a pet store).
The second list "Ayu-Yellowtail" are those without thiaminase. This includes Trout (wild caught or farm-raised) which is easily found at your grocery store for cheap. Guppies and Gambusa (Mosquito fish) are not on either lists, but I believe neither contains Thaiaminase. (I couldn't prove one way or the other definitaively, until there is CONCRETE information on whether or not Guppies contain Thiamanese I would just use them on occasion to feed you snake, to be on the safe side.)
If you like to go fishing in streams or creeks, chubs make great snake feeders (make sure they are on smaller size though) If you fish in lakes or ponds, crappies and bass are also great to feed snakes Just make sure the water they are from isn't polluted or smell bad. (why is the smell important? because the smellier the water, the more likely it is for the caught fish to have not only parasites but higher mercury/chemical levels as well)
If you must use fish, use non-thiaminase containing fish like trout (and maybe guppies, bass, crappie, and gambusa). Don't feed goldfish or rosy reds to you snakes if possible, if you have to make sure they are not frozen or dead. Give your snakes feeding breaks with access to vitamin B1 laced water. I have heard of people using Reptosol as a vitamin supplement
Hope that page helps you. Good luck with your herp :)

you can also buy a male and female mouse and breed them. Storing a variety of sizes and even feeding live food to your corn instead.
meant to post this in my last post.... sorry. lol.
THAT is much simplier to do. believe it or not.

My dad is comeing home with some minnows three ik some pll say they r ok but idk plz tell me and plz do pics like u did with the guppies plz thx :)

Thank you for the great info!

THANK YOU so much for this. We sell garters at work and I've been telling anyone who buys them that rosy reds and gold fish are not safe. But I didn't know about the others, or that they should eat twice a week. This has not only helped me, but the people who have or will get a garter in the future.

My snake just gave birth and she wasn't eating.
I fed her one goldfish, although she loved it and I will not continue feeding it goldfish, will she be okay if she's just had one and I feed her other food to clear out her system?

Most of your links are out of date.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spicey

Most of your links are out of date.

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That's because this thread is 11 years old:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toad37

That's because this thread is 11 years old:D

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Ya think? :rofl: