HR 669: What Are the Chances?

Hi,

I noticed there's a lot of HR669 threads all of a sudden.

How unlikely is it, however, that this bill gets passed? How could the United States government, a government of a country that is the "Land of the Free", possibly allow such a law that bans all animals apart from cats and dogs?

I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't oppose the bill at all. I indeed am very worried that it may get passed, however unlikely it is, because I'd hate to see thousands upon thousands of animals die -- which will probably happen if the bill is passed.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,

To be completely honest, the chance is slim to none.

But that doesn't mean we should ignore it either.

While it might seem really unlikely that the US Government would pass a bill into law that would cripple the pet industry, don't forget that the intent of HR669 isn't to hurt pet owners ... it's to save the environment and unless your Representatives are educated about the other side of the coin so to speak, how will they even realize how saving the environment can be a bad thing in this instance.

HR669 is very similar to many "feel good" pieces of legislation that have been fast tracking trough congress lately. Anyone that thinks it's "impossible" for this bill to have an impact on the pet trade might want to talk to people into 100cc and smaller motorcycles for their kids ... this past Tuesday they became illegal to manufacture and sell due to another piece of "feel good" legislation that bans selling anything that contains lead at levels greater than 600 parts per million. The motorcycle community is in complete shock and is now scrambling trying to get exceptions passed. It's not only the motorcycle industry that took a hit over the new lead regulations ... it's book stores that sell childrens books, the toy industry, libraries, consignment stores, and on and on. The intent of the law wasn't to hurt those businesses, but rather to protect children ... the bill slipped trough Congress with little opposition and now the impact could damage the American economy to the tune of over a billion dollars.

Google "Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act" and read for yourself.

Don't sleep on H.R. 669 because it seems crazy ... crazy legislation can absolutely become a law ... information is coming on what exactly you need to do to prevent this bill from going anywhere ... keep an eye out for www.nohr669.com.

-adam

VERY well said, Adam

Adam,

I completely agree with your post. However, what is the ratio of people keeping guinea pigs and the like compared to people having motor cycles? I bet a bunch of the Representatives themselves keep any of the pets that will be banned.

I don't think we should ignore the bill at all. Like I said, I am worried about it. However, I doubt it should get to the point of people giving up their hobby already (even though this is probably not happening).

Thanks,

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Adam,

I completely agree with your post. However, what is the ratio of people keeping guinea pigs and the like compared to people having motor cycles?

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the better question is how many of those keepers are even aware their rights are being threatened. Had the motorcycle industry been made aware do you think that bill would have passed? The odds that this will pass if unopposed 100%[/B]

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I bet a bunch of the Representatives themselves keep any of the pets that will be banned.

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True how many of them are willing to just get a dog and not worry about fighting it for their one pet.

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

what is the ratio of people keeping guinea pigs and the like compared to people having motor cycles? I bet a bunch of the Representatives themselves keep any of the pets that will be banned.

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Many of the Representatives that will be voting on the bill do not even realize the full impact of what will happen if it is passed ... mine certainly didn't when I spoke with him. Many do not even know that their pets could potentially be banned. That is exactly what happened in the case of motorcycles ... there are certainly Congressmen and women that have kids, grand kids, nieces, nephews, that ride 100cc and lower dirt bikes ... but the bill they voted on was a child safety bill ... it said nothing about banning motorcycles ... so they voted for it thinking that it would protect children.

They have literally minutes sometimes to make yes or no decisions about legislation that they are voting on and rely heavily on what their aides and fellow Congressmen tell them. The text of H.R. 669 doesn't say that it will ban guinea pigs or any other specific pet, it says that it will protect the United States environment from non-native species ... if no one told you anything else, why wouldn't you vote for it? That's why it's so critically important for each of us to contact our Representative in Congress and tell them what H.R. 669 will really do and that you do not want them to support it.

Don't assume that your Representative in Congress has researched every aspect and every possible outcome of every single piece of legislation that they vote on ... because they haven't ... 100% guaranteed. It's our job as part of a democratic society to make sure that they represent our views on the issues put before them.

Without our voices, all they will hear are the people that want the H.R. 669 to pass and that is where the danger lies ... because those people aren't talking about banning pets, those people are telling them that they're saving the environment.

-adam

(Not meaning to thread jack) but what if it gets passed, how do they plan on getting rid of the animals that make the "bad" list? Knock on doors and search houses or something?

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Originally Posted by Little B-Py

(Not meaning to thread jack) but what if it gets passed, how do they plan on getting rid of the animals that make the "bad" list? Knock on doors and search houses or something?

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That's one of the huge problems with the H.R. 669 as it's written. Without clear guidelines as to how to deal with issues like this one, the power is placed in the hands of the US Fish & Wildlife service to handle it as they see fit. Appointed officials with the power to have the FBI raid homes over parakeets and leopard geckos if they wanted ... the example is a little extreme of course, but it's still a scary thought.

-adam

Many times when I try to send an email through their sites, I get the message that they can't respond to me. Hopefully, the email goes through and there's no filter that keeps an email with my zip from being trashed.

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Originally Posted by grammie

Many times when I try to send an email through their sites, I get the message that they can't respond to me. Hopefully, the email goes through and there's no filter that keeps an email with my zip from being trashed.

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Unfortunately, the way the congressional web forms are setup, unless your zip code is in the district the Congressperson represents, they won't let your message get through. The best thing you can do is to contact your Representative in Congress and let them know that you would like their help opposing H.R. 669. If enough people contact them they will send an aide to speak directly to members on the Natural Resources committee and let them know that there is strong opposition to H.R. 669.

Keep an eye out this coming Friday for new about what you can specifically do to have as loud of a voice as possible in opposing H.R. 669.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

That's one of the huge problems with the H.R. 669 as it's written. Without clear guidelines as to how to deal with issues like this one, the power is placed in the hands of the US Fish & Wildlife service to handle it as they see fit. Appointed officials with the power to have the FBI raid homes over parakeets and leopard geckos if they wanted ... the example is a little extreme of course, but it's still a scary thought.

-adam

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A scary thought it is! But what would they do with all the creatures, euthanize them? They could not deport them back to the native countries due to an overflow in populations of the different animals. Think of every ball python being shipped back to Ghana, it would be (i'm guessing) close to 100K animals? Big breeders keeps hundreds of snakes and then there are the consumers owning anywhere from 1-100+. All the just born hatchlings, there is a near countless amount of animals that would flood borders to be released and quickly die due to being in captivity. Granted snakes could more than likely still survive but I don't think a guinea pig or hamster would last long in the wild without a food bowl full of their treats.

And if they were to euthanize them, where would they put all the bodies? Would they bury them or burn them? If they did either I'm sure there would be more environmental activists attacking them for that.

I did send one to my rep. I also posted this on my local Craigslist pet section.

What are the chances the U.S government would out law the making, sale, or interstate transport of a widely used and enjoyed previously legal commodity. Wouldn't be the first time...


Ever hear of prohibition "from 1919 to 1933, during which the sale, manufacture, and transportation of alcohol for consumption were banned nationally as mandated in the Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution."

And why did it pass? "Explanation was sought by medical men. One suggestion had come from one of the foremost physicians of the late 18th century, Dr. Benjamin Rush. In 1784, he argued that the excessive use of alcohol was injurious to physical and psychological health"

See any words in there you recognize

lol, speakeasies selling black bear hamsters and bootlegging ball pythons. The new NASCAR is born!

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Originally Posted by Little B-Py

lol, speakeasies selling black bear hamsters and bootlegging ball pythons. The new NASCAR is born!

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Like Adam said just like prohibition HR669 doesn't say how it will be enforced, whats included or excluded or really have a sound reason as to why. It's one of those Laws that "sounded good"

A quote I love from my History Professor..."you can't pass laws to make people good"

People will always break laws, whether is be a speed limit, making illegal booze in prohibition, or (potentially) underground snake breeding and selling rings.

"Welcome to the Ball Python Black Market, we have everything you need from normals to lucies"

Well, ain't this grand. Look at the DEADLY "burmese python." -Rolls her eyes.-

http://www.necis.net/files/brochure-...h.r.-669-2.pdf

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Originally Posted by Little B-Py

A quote I love from my History Professor..."you can't pass laws to make people good"

People will always break laws, whether is be a speed limit, making illegal booze in prohibition, or (potentially) underground snake breeding and selling rings.

"Welcome to the Ball Python Black Market, we have everything you need from normals to lucies"

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Or even more serious.. what if you hear "All owners of these listed animals must report to a USWF station with their animals to have them humanly put down with in 12 months or risk Jail time and a fine."

And that goes back to my previous statement, what would they do with them? and who is to know who is housing what?

I LOVE the pic of the "burmese" python in the brochure!

Melicious... That "burm" sure looks an awful lot like a few snakes I got in my rack! I didn't know I had purchased deadly "burms"!!! :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Mitch21

Melicious... That "burm" sure looks an awful lot like a few snakes I got in my rack! I didn't know I had purchased deadly "burms"!!! :rofl:

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My point exactly. I didn't realize all along that I was harboring deadly burmese pythons who will squeeze me to death. Oh my!

btw, just got back an email response from Grace Napolitano, who is one listed to contact. NOT my district, but might be worth some more emails to her. So some are getting through even if we aren't in their district.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

To be completely honest, the chance is slim to none.

But that doesn't mean we should ignore it either.

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Your first sentence is exactly what they are counting on our reaction being. They want us to think it's too crazy to pass so that we won't act. We HAVE to band together!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

the better question is how many of those keepers are even aware their rights are being threatened.

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Exactly! The fish store by me didn't have a clue, my pet store that sells reptiles and birds didn't have a clue, my co-workers that I passed the Pijac alert to didn't have a clue! My cubemate's grand daugher has guinea pigs and both of them are so pissed off, that they're getting involved. They would never have known that about this bill if I hadn't told them.

We have to spread the word, we have to get people to pay attention!

who do we contact if a rep for our state is not on the list?

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Originally Posted by little b-py

who do we contact if a rep for our state is not on the list?

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yes!!!!!

I called my local PETCO and the Mom and Pop store that I get my rats from.

PETCO told me that they couldn't let their customers know until Corporate said something. The Mom and Pop store was freaked out.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

yes!!!!!

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I don't think answered the question as to WHO? Yes doesn't tell you who. :P

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I don't think answered the question as to WHO? Yes doesn't tell you who. :P

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My mistake.. :oops:

It's ok. I kinda had a WTF? look on my face when I saw that. lol. I made a facebook event and invited everyone to it. Just need to know who to contact so I can add that to it.

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Originally Posted by Little B-Py

who do we contact if a rep for our state is not on the list?

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Contacting your own Representative in congress is by far the most effective way to stand up against HR 669. Emailing AND calling ... I have my Congressman's phone number programmed into my cell phone and I call his office every single day and ask his aide to please have him help me oppose HR 669.

In the next couple of days, www.nohr669.com will launch with information about who to contact, how to contact them, and even what to say with a couple of simple clicks ... please use it every day until HR 669 is dead.

-adam

I emailed my congressman, Greg Walden. Is there anything else I can do?

I would love to join USARK and PIJAC but I can't afford the membership fees. I hate being broke:mad:

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Originally Posted by gp_dragsandballs

I emailed my congressman, Greg Walden. Is there anything else I can do?

I would love to join USARK and PIJAC but I can't afford the membership fees. I hate being broke:mad:

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Starting Friday, check out www.nohr669.com for information about what other things you can do to help. Each bit of help that we can get puts us one step closer to ending HR 669.

-adam

Don't know how many of you know about the actual bill page, but you are allowed to post questions there. Be very careful and don't try to make it reptile specific (just a suggestion). Watch your spelling and grammar and be respectful.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-669

Here is an e-mail I jsut sent to Mr. Jenkins. Not that it will do any good, but nonetheless, he got the point that I'm not happy....

Mr. Jenkins,

I have been following your most recent push for legislation regarding eliminating the import and raising of exotic reptiles into the United States.
I would like to bring a few points to your attention if I may. While I understand there are some irresponsible reptile owners in this country, the same can be said for dog and cat owners as well. How many stray canines and felines are overcrowding our shelters today because owners tire of their responsibility to them and just decide to abandon them? How many pythons, constrictors, iguanas, etc. do you see being abandoned in the same fashion? The ratio of abandoned cats and dogs to reptiles is astronomical in favor of the reptiles being kept by their owners.
Reptile owners are also some of the most intelligent, educated keepers of these wonderful pets. Herp owners spend countless hours educating themselves about their pets so they can give them the best home possible and ensure a long, healthy life for their pets. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for cat and dog owners, or even owners of livestock. How many news headlines do you see daily about animal cruelty to domesticated pets such as cats, dogs, horses, etc. Now, compare that to the number of stories you see or read about reptiles of ANY kind being abused, abandoned or neglected. Again, the ratio is HEAVILY in favor of reptiles receiving the best care from their owners.

Next, an argument about the ferociousness and aggressiveness of reptiles has come to light and an argument is trying to be made that reptiles are too aggressive and temperamental to be kept in captivity. Hmmmm...how many Pit Bull dog bites and attacks do hospitals treat across this country vs. snakebites from captive pets? How many cat owners get bit or scratched daily and end up seeking emergency medical care because of a simple scratch that gets so infected by the germs and bacteria a cat carries. I work in an emergency department and I can tell you right now the ratio of cat and dog bites to reptile injuries is astronomical, to put it mildly. Your argument regarding the aggressiveness of snakes and reptiles simply doesn't hold water. Do your research and you'll see for yourself.

I have a question I would like to pose to you and your posse of legislators. With today's economy in the slump it's in, what do you think will happen to the small pet stores who deal in reptiles, or even the large chain stores? What about the reptile supply companies? What kind of effect do you think your legislation is going to have on them? How many stores will go out of business, how many employees added to the unemployment lines... Think about that as your proposed legislation makes it's way across the desks of the lawmakers in this land.

You brought the situation in Florida to light regarding reptiles that have been turned loose in the wild by irresponsible owners. You are making a case against huge snakes, such as Anacondas and Burmese Pythons preying on endangered wildlife. Well, Sir, what about the population of Alligators in Florida that not only prey on animals, but also children and people enjoying the waters of Florida? How many stories have you read about an Anaconda dragging a child off to be eaten? I can think of several stories of alligators preying on children for food. A certain airbase in Florida immediately comes to mind where an alligator dug under a chain link fence and preyed on a 2 year old in her playpen in a "secure" backyard. I don't see any legislation trying to curb the population of the alligators though.

What about the pets that are already in millions of homes across this country? How are you going to eliminate them? Are you going to do a house-to-house search to rid this country of every iguana, python, bearded dragon, etc.? There are ways to regulate who does and does not have the right to own reptiles as pets. How about having potential herp owners register for a permit? Maybe if a person was forced to pay a REASONABLE fee to obtain a permit to own a reptile, he or she would think twice before turning it loose in the wild when they tire of the responsibility. At least that's a step in the right direction.

In closing, what I see you doing is captilaizing on the paranoia and fear so many people have of reptiles. You are portraying reptiles as viscious beasts that will attack anything in it's sight. On the contrary, the majority of wild reptiles like to be left alone and will go to extreme lengths to avoid human contact. It's only when they are badgered, cornered and harrassed that they defend themselves, and that's EXACTLY what they are doing, defending themselves. I do not agree with your petition, your view and your blatant twisting of facts in the hopes of achieving your political agenda. There are far more pressing issues concerning the wildlife of this country other than trying to eliminate every reptile being kept as a pet in this country. Your extremist views regarding this issue is clouding your judgement and sense of rational thinking. You are making an example of ONE region in this country where you have deemed it a "crisis situation", and in turn, are trying to punish the entire country and reptile owners across this country for an ISOLATED problem in Southern Florida. Maybe you would do good to educate yourself with the reptile pet industry before going off an a crusade such as this so you can HONESTLY make rational judgements regarding a problem that is affecting a tiny part of this country. By taking the position you are currently taking, you are doing nothing but causing undo panic and only further deepseating the fear so many people have of reptiles in this country. It's not only a disservice to every reptile owner in this country, but it's also a severe disservice to the reptiles being raised successfully in this country.

Sincerely,

Brian S. Batease

The passion in your letter is excellent, but it would be much more effective to wait a few days and send a second email that is much shorter and to the point.

A couple of things to remember ...

1. Your Congressperson isn't the actual person that reads the emails. The emails are read by aides to the Congressperson that are simply tallying "for" or "against" any given piece of legislation.

2. Long emails full of detail might not even be read from start to finish. If you lose the attention of the aide, they will just move on to the next one and your position won't even be considered. (As a matter of fact, I had a hard time getting through what you wrote just due to the length).

3. Two or three short paragraphs of a couple sentences each stating that you are against HR 669 and a couple of brief sentences why is going to be the most effective type of message sent. It will allow the aide reading the emails to quickly identify the issue and put another check in the "against" column without losing interest.

4. Make it personal ... tell them how it will affect you, not the country. Tell them that you spend money on pet supplies at the local pet store named XXX and how that store will lose income.

5. Persistence is key ... don't just fire one off and hope it does the job. Once a week, or even once a day send an email. You can even say something like "Hi, it's me again".

5. You alone are not going to sway the opinion of your Congressperson, so a long email trying to convince them why HR 669 is bad doesn't matter ... and quite frankly, they really don't care. They just need to know if the people that they represent are for it or against it. At the end of the day, whichever "check box" has more (for for against) is how they will most likely vote.

Another couple of helpful idea are phone calls and in person visits. Phone calls are more effective than emails and/or letters ... call once, call twice, call every day ... tell them that you're a constituent and that you are against HR 669. Congress is now on spring break, so your Representative is likely in your area for the next week or so. Find out if you can stop by their home office for a visit and express your concerns in person ... even if you only get 5 minutes with an aide, face to face visits are GOLDEN!

-adam

That e-mail actually went to the Director of International Conservation/Defenders of Wildlife.

I have a completely seperate letter for my congressman, of which New York really doesn't have one as of yet due to such a close Special Election between Tedisco and his opponent.
The letter I have for my elected official is much more personal than this. I worte this letter to give this guy the "big" picture of the overall effect his legislation will have should it get passed. ;)

What can YOU do? Let me tell you what I did today. I printed the document that you can get by clicking my signature button from Pijac. I then wrote at the top - www.nohr669.com - Starting Friday, April 10th!

Today I stopped by two pet stores on my way home. One sells just tropical fish, the other sells birds and reptiles. Both owners were SHOCKED to hear of this bill, and both plan to tell all their customers.

I plan to go to as many local mom and pop pet stores in metro Atlanta as I can this weekend and talk to the pet store owners/managers and get them fired up as well.

The two pet stores I stopped at today said that I can drop off flyers on Friday, and one is going to give flyers to his rodent distributor to pass out to even more pet stores.

It doesn't take much effort to walk into the store, ask them if they've heard of this bill, and tell them about it. Spread the word!

I've also e-mailed co-workers that own small animals, birds, fish and told them about it - they all want more information and want to know what they can do.

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Originally Posted by grammie

I did send one to my rep. I also posted this on my local Craigslist pet section.

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I did as well. I got flagged and also told I was crazy and should wear my tinfoil hat to protect me from the voices and the goverment. Stupid G D people. Really, I am so ticked right now.

I just got back from doing the same thing. I dropped off copies of the bill to 5 different shops. One store had already heard of it and have adjusted their prices accordingly. They were selling Bearded Dragons for $149.95 and they had a Juvie Columbian Rainbow Boa for $595. 2 weeks ago the boa was going for $169.99 and the Bearded Dragons were selling for $59.99.
This was one of the things I was afraid of with this bill. Small shops like this are going to try and jack the prices way up to try and make a kiling before anything even happens. I guess that's one of the blessings about "free enterprise" in America.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

HR669 is very similar to many "feel good" pieces of legislation that have been fast tracking trough congress lately. Anyone that thinks it's "impossible" for this bill to have an impact on the pet trade might want to talk to people into 100cc and smaller motorcycles for their kids ... this past Tuesday they became illegal to manufacture and sell due to another piece of "feel good" legislation that bans selling anything that contains lead at levels greater than 600 parts per million. The motorcycle community is in complete shock and is now scrambling trying to get exceptions passed. It's not only the motorcycle industry that took a hit over the new lead regulations ... it's book stores that sell childrens books, the toy industry, libraries, consignment stores, and on and on. The intent of the law wasn't to hurt those businesses, but rather to protect children ... the bill slipped trough Congress with little opposition and now the impact could damage the American economy to the tune of over a billion dollars.

Google "Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act" and read for yourself.

Don't sleep on H.R. 669 because it seems crazy ... crazy legislation can absolutely become a law ... information is coming on what exactly you need to do to prevent this bill from going anywhere ... keep an eye out for www.nohr669.com.

-adam

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wait... WHAT?!?!?! I've been out at the local motorcross park alot lately and havn't heard a thing about it this by the watercooler... does this outlaw only new products off the showroom floor, or all models, even those made in prior years? Thats ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

wait... WHAT?!?!?! I've been out at the local motorcross park alot lately and havn't heard a thing about it this by the watercooler... does this outlaw only new products off the showroom floor, or all models, even those made in prior years? Thats ridiculous.

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It regulates their sale, distribution, and manufacture ... technically, 100cc and below bikes should no longer be on show room floors as of a week ago.

-adam

yea... see that now... just read that honda has pulled 50 million worth of product off the show room floors... hows that for the economy?

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Well, ain't this grand. Look at the DEADLY "burmese python." -Rolls her eyes.-

http://www.necis.net/files/brochure-...h.r.-669-2.pdf

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super deadly...if your a rat

A friend through another forum has made a short vid highlighting the perils of this proposed bill. Although this bill doesn't apply to the UK, there's a good chance if it succeeds in the US, the Brits are a cert to consider something similar.

Anyway here's the vid. Helping to spread the news :gj:

YouTube - Oppose The HR669 (United States) Exotic Species Ban!

Wow Fergie! She did a GREAT job!

Oi oi, Mr. Fergie! Ta very much for posting this :) That's really good o' ya! Thought that I'd create an account myself, while I'm 'ere, although, you're now bound to start thinking that my stalker potential is completely undeniable ;) Ahaha. Many thanks, bud! x

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Wow Fergie! She did a GREAT job!

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Thank you, rabernet! That's a lovely welcome to the forums for me :D :D

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Originally Posted by sacredart

Oi oi, Mr. Fergie! Ta very much for posting this :) That's really good o' ya! Thought that I'd create an account myself, while I'm 'ere, although, you're now bound to start thinking that my stalker potential is completely undeniable ;) Ahaha. Many thanks, bud! x



Thank you, rabernet! That's a lovely welcome to the forums for me :D :D

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We are thrilled to have you! Your passion and conviction in your video literally brought tears to my eyes! :bow:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

We are thrilled to have you! Your passion and conviction in your video literally brought tears to my eyes! :bow:

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Thank you! That really makes me feel justified in having spent the time to make that video :) The amount of time I spent talking at the camera while it decided not to record, however, was well... :frustrate