my snake is sick

I think my sons snake is dying. We noticed on Saturday it was acting funny. It is most often very feisty and will move quickly through out the cage when its feeding time. My son will pet and hold him sometimes but when he went to the cage Saturday and went to pick it up he said it looked like the snake had a seizure. It shook around and then became very stiff. I don't have a reptile vet in my area so I don't know what to do. It now just lays there with out moving and it's body is very stiff . I found it belly up this morning but it is still breathing. I tried feeding it but it wont eat. It's body temp is fine it's not cold to the touch and the other snake in the cage is perfectly fine. We have had it for almost three years and my so is very attached. It is a ribbon snake which im told is similar to if not the same as a garder snake. Does anyone know what could be wrong and what to do? What is the normal life expectancy for that type of snake? And should I be concerned for the other snake as well? I hate that it seems to be suffering. But I have no idea what to do for it. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Unfotunately it's almost impossible to diagnose something like this over the internet. My best advice would be to get him to a vet. If you can't find a specialized vet in the area, you might want to call some local vets and ask for a recommendation.

From your description it could be a number of possibilities such as poisoning, heat stress, malnutrition, disease, or even something genetic.

You also mentioned that there's another snake in the cage. Are they the same type of snake? I'm not familiar with Ribbon snakes, but it's generally considered a bad idea to keep multiple snakes together.

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Originally Posted by gulpysmom

the other snake in the cage is perfectly fine.

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First thing I'd do is get that other snake out of there with it. If your animal has something transmittable most likely its to late for its cage mate but you may have dodged a bullet.

I did call the local vet but they only know of an exotic bird vet in the next state over. I unfourtunatly live in the middle of no where. I will definitely remove the other snake asap. Thank you. Unfortunately it looks as though the snake won't make it. He is now unable to move at all but is still alive. I'm not sure if he is suffering or in pain and I feel terrible just letting it lay there. I Wish there was something I could do to help it in some way. Thanks all for your help. :(

Hi,

Ask your local vet if he would consider doing a phone consult with a qualified reptile vet.

What state are you in and we can see if there is anyone listed as close as possible maybe?


dr del

One of the first things every herp owner should do is ensure there is a qualified vet within reasonable distance. Fortunately, I have a vet 10 minutes from me that even makes house calls if the situation warrants and he is excellent with reptiles.
That being said, hindsight is 20/20 and now we have to try and figure out how we can help you. From the sounds of it, it might be possible that one snake attacked the other as they can be VERY territorial. As stated above, NEVER put 2 snakes in the same habitat for any great length of time. Doing so only compunds so many issues including illness, territory battles and so forth.
Can you see any visible deformations or signs of injury? Could the snake have fallen from a high distance and possibly injured himself? Is there any audible noises coming from the snake when he's breathing indicating a possible respiratory infection? Has he voided regularly and eaten regularly or has there been feeding a voiding issues? All of these can give us each a better direction to go in when trying to diagnose your pet's ailment.
While it may seem futile at this point, keep the faith. These pets are extremely resilient and hopefully we can get things sorted before it's too late. From the sounds of it, the ailment seems to have been a pretty sudden onset from your description which makes me think a traumatic injury may be to blame. Just my thoughts...

Well how old was the snake when you got it? Ribbon snakes normally only live around 10-12 years. If the other snake in the same cage seems fine, then I'd say it's something genetic or age-related but there's no way to tell for sure until you talk to a vet. Like the others, I would also strongly suggest you remove the other snake from the tank if you haven't done so already.

I know it can be hard to find good reptile vets. Try searching for them online. There might be some around that your vet doesn't know about.

That's about all I can suggest. I know it's horrible having to see an animal suffer and I hope everything works out one way or the other. I am sorry though :(

Well to answer all of you in one shot here goes. I live in New Jersey up in the mountains on the border of New York and Pa. I did remove the other snake from the cage. My local pet store had said that it was ok to have them together and they seemed close as silly as that sounds. They were always tangled up together or hanging out in the same little hut. But since gulpy became sick I moved the other to a different cage. I cleaned the cage really well and threw away all the items inside and purchased new. I also looked up some other things online and was told sometimes putting them in water helps with dehydration. Which I did. I sat up with him til 4am like you would an infant making sure the body temp was good and giving a little nudge each time he looked like he wasn't breathing. His breathing seems to be really slow way slower then normal and he seems to be really extra skinny. I did try feeding him some water through a dropper and some tiny fish with some tweezers lol. His usual diet is tuffys or rosies he eats around 6 per week. The last time he ate was about two weeks ago which isn't normal he always loves his fish. I don't hear any sounds coming from him or see any type of mucus or anything so as far as a respiratory thing I don't know. Luckily so far he seems to be doing a wee bit better. He is moving finally but still wont eat or drink. I placed some tiny guppys in his water in case he gets hungry. they are small enough that he wouldn't have to work hard to eat them. I see no body abnormalities though his head seems to slump to one side and he refuses to open his mouth at all. He will swim when put in the water but quickly gets out. I'm really trying the best I can to keep him comfy. I replaced his bedding with a brand new pillow case and put a bottle of hot water for warmth because the heat pad is with the other snake. He seems to be more comfortable on the pillow case then on the wood chips. He moves around more though I think I will put the wood chips back tomorrow. This was a sudden thing he just seemed to get sick on Saturday but was fine before that. I feel like I'm writing a novel here but I'm trying to cover all my bases. Thanks everyone for your help and support. Now that he is moving around a bit more I'm hopeful that he will be okay.

Oh yeah I forgot to say we got him as a tiny baby we ordered him from a breeder and was told he was a baby he was less the a foot long. And we have had him for about three years. He is now almost two feet long.

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Originally Posted by blushingball419

Well how old was the snake when you got it? Ribbon snakes normally only live around 10-12 years. If the other snake in the same cage seems fine, then I'd say it's something genetic or age-related but there's no way to tell for sure until you talk to a vet. Like the others, I would also strongly suggest you remove the other snake from the tank if you haven't done so already.

I know it can be hard to find good reptile vets. Try searching for them online. There might be some around that your vet doesn't know about.

That's about all I can suggest. I know it's horrible having to see an animal suffer and I hope everything works out one way or the other. I am sorry though :(

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Ball pythons have lived for 45 years. 10-12 in captivity is extremely low.

I'm guessing a disease or nerve issue of some sort. What are the temperatures in the cage, and how are you controlling them?

Separate the two snakes immediately, you can put them in tubberware tubs, (a 32quart should be fine) and use those as enclosures.

What was the name of your breeder?

This might be a long shot, but you mentioned you feed him fish. What kind of fish, and where do you buy them from?

I have read a couple of things online, but it could all be a load of bull, but that feeding feeder goldfish to those small colubrid and water snakes is generally not a good idea because of something the goldfish carry.... I would have to do a search to refresh my memory.

Like I said, long shot. :(

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Ball pythons have lived for 45 years. 10-12 in captivity is extremely low.

I'm guessing a disease or nerve issue of some sort. What are the temperatures in the cage, and how are you controlling them?

Separate the two snakes immediately, you can put them in tubberware tubs, (a 32quart should be fine) and use those as enclosures.

What was the name of your breeder?

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This is a ribbon snake, not a ball. They live about 12 years on average.

With regards to feeder goldfish and rosies:

(1) both are commonly loaded with parasites

(2) both are high in thiaminase which can theoretically lead to a thiamine deficiency which is causative factor in neurological issues

(3) store bought feeder fish in general are a bad move. They are regularly dosed with medications to rid them of parasites and bacterial infections.

A 1.1 pair of ribbon snakes can be kept together providing the enclosure is of adequate size, there are ample hiding areas, there are thermoregulation zones large enough to accomodate both animals and they are separated at feeding time. It is commonly done: the rules for these snakes and balls are different.

A couple of questions:

Have you tried feeding him any earthworms?

What temps are you keeping them at?

Do you have a male/female pair? If so, have you noticed any breeding behavior?

How big of an enclosure are they in?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

This is a ribbon snake, not a ball. They live about 12 years on average.

With regards to feeder goldfish and rosies:

(1) both are commonly loaded with parasites

(2) both are high in thiaminase which can theoretically lead to a thiamine deficiency which is causative factor in neurological issues

(3) store bought feeder fish in general are a bad move. They are regularly dosed with medications to rid them of parasites and bacterial infections.

A 1.1 pair of ribbon snakes can be kept together providing the enclosure is of adequate size, there are ample hiding areas, there are thermoregulation zones large enough to accomodate both animals and they are separated at feeding time. It is commonly done: the rules for these snakes and balls are different.

A couple of questions:

Have you tried feeding him any earthworms?

What temps are you keeping them at?

Do you have a male/female pair? If so, have you noticed any breeding behavior?

How big of an enclosure are they in?

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Ahh, thanks for filling in! I had no luck figuring out what I was talking about. ;P

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Ahh, thanks for filling in! I had no luck figuring out what I was talking about. ;P

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Your advice was still correct..........feeder goldfish bad. :gj:

My snake is a ribbon snake which is pretty much a garter snake. I'm having trouble regulating the temp for the snake right now. I usually keep the light on for the better part of the day in one half of the cage keeping the other side cool. And in the evening I have a heat pad that is underneath the tank on the same side the light goes on. But for some reason the snake is trying all he can to get away from the light but the heat pad isn't keeping him warm enough. So what I have done is put the heat pad on and filled up a plastic bottle with real hot water and covered it with a sock and put it in the tank above where the pad is he cuddles up to this area to keep warm. I refill the bottle with hot water every few hours. I monitor his temp by feeling to make sure he is warm. And I put the light on for a little bit every now and then to be sure he stays warm. I really don't know a whole lot about how to care for snakes I try to read as much as I can so I can care for them properly. My sons father was the snake expert but he unfortunately passed away about a year and a half ago. And I didn't want to get rid of them because of my son he was really attached and obviously sensitive. I'm not sure the name of the breeder because I wasn't the one who took care of that but I can find out because we buy all the food and supplies for the snake from the same pet store who deals with the breeder. Thanks for the help.

Wow thank you so much I had no Idea those fish were bad that is what I was told to feed them. I feel so bad now. The littler snake will eat earth worms and does so regularly but the snake that is sick won't touch them. Waht else could you suggest I feed them? I refer to the snake as him or he but honestly I dont know. I brought it to the pet store to find out but they said it was to small or young to tell. The other snake is even smaller so I have no clue though I have always suspected a male female situation because they seem to be really fond of one another. The smaller snake even laid across the sick snake each time I tried to check on it. I know it sounds silly but I took it as a sign of protection. I have seperated them. The sick one is in a 10 gallon for now but the oridginal tank was a 30 gallon they had seperate huts and sticks and water dishes but they always ended up under the same little hut tangled up together. If it is some sort of parrasite from the fish is it something that the snake can recover from? I was thinking an injury of some sort because he is having trouble moving correctly by this I mean if he is crawling to the other side of the tank sometimes he flips to his back and has trouble getting back on his belly. And his head hangs to one side. I'm trying not to handle him to much but I do check on him often. Thank you so so much for the info on the feeder fish now I can stop making that mistake. Is a diet of only earth worms ok? And can they come from the pet store? or can we just get them from outside? And how would I be able to tell the sex on my own? The pet store was not helpful in that area or any area as I'm learning from all of you.

You may want to try to get hold of these folks. I think from doing a fast google that they are familar with this species and perhaps could offer you some advice. Worth a try at least.

http://www.sunshineserpents.com

Sadly you've learned rule #1 of snakekeeping....don't trust the majority of pet stores. :(

I hope you are able to get help for this snake or at least, for the sake of the other snake, find out what is going on here.

Good news hopefully!! I finally found a vet to see my snake and we will be on our way shortly. And Thanks for the link I will definitely check that out.

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Originally Posted by gulpysmom

Wow thank you so much I had no Idea those fish were bad that is what I was told to feed them. I feel so bad now. The littler snake will eat earth worms and does so regularly but the snake that is sick won't touch them. Waht else could you suggest I feed them? I refer to the snake as him or he but honestly I dont know. I brought it to the pet store to find out but they said it was to small or young to tell. The other snake is even smaller so I have no clue though I have always suspected a male female situation because they seem to be really fond of one another. The smaller snake even laid across the sick snake each time I tried to check on it. I know it sounds silly but I took it as a sign of protection. I have seperated them. The sick one is in a 10 gallon for now but the oridginal tank was a 30 gallon they had seperate huts and sticks and water dishes but they always ended up under the same little hut tangled up together. If it is some sort of parrasite from the fish is it something that the snake can recover from? I was thinking an injury of some sort because he is having trouble moving correctly by this I mean if he is crawling to the other side of the tank sometimes he flips to his back and has trouble getting back on his belly. And his head hangs to one side. I'm trying not to handle him to much but I do check on him often. Thank you so so much for the info on the feeder fish now I can stop making that mistake. Is a diet of only earth worms ok? And can they come from the pet store? or can we just get them from outside? And how would I be able to tell the sex on my own? The pet store was not helpful in that area or any area as I'm learning from all of you.

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They can also be coaxed into taking appropriately sized pinky mice. These can be scented with salmon, trout or any other type of fish.

You can cut up salmon and trout fillets and dust them with a calcium/multi-vitamin powder every third or fourth feeding. Whole silversides are acceptable.

As to earthworms - occasionally. Just be careful of "red wigglers" which have been reported at worst to be toxic to snakes, at best - distasteful. These should not make up the main part of the diet. Unlike garters, ribbons snakes sometimes cannot be coaxed into eating earthworms. If not, it's not the end of the world........

I would offer rodents and fish 99% of the time with earthworms as an occasional treat or as a means to get him to try other items.

I have a western ribbon snake that loves earthworms. I used them as a way to get him onto pinky mice. I would cut the worms up and place them in a dish with the mice. He got so worked up over the worms he gobbled up the pinky at the same time.

As to his illness, it is not uncommon for ribbons snakes and garters (thamnophis) that have been fed a diet of fish high in thiaminase to develop neurological problems. It is also not uncommon for thamnophis fed a diet of goldfish and rosys to develop internal parasites. Hopefully, this Vet you found will be able to diagnose and treat whatver is afflicting him.

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Originally Posted by gulpysmom

I monitor his temp by feeling to make sure he is warm.

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Snakes will feel cool to us. We are quite a bit warmer than these animals, especially ones like a ribbon snake that will do fine with a small hot spot in the low 80's.

I recommend going to walmart, homedepot, or even online and ordering a digital thermometer with a probe to measure his temps. The probe goes to the hot side, and the unit itself goes to the cool side.

I bet his temps are fine with just a lamp overhead. Raising them too high can be very bad for a snake. Remember, if HE wants to cool off, let him!! He is trying to thermoregulate. If he wants to warm up, he will.

I think this is likely the problem, if you are unsure of how hot it is, he is likely being cooked, even though to US (humans) it doesn't feel very warm.

Thank you all so much for your help unfortunately Gulpy died shortly after arriving home from the vet. The vet said it did in deed seem to be something neurological. And he wasn't able to breath as well as he should. As everything else seemed to be normal. I will definitely be more careful with the diet of little Rosie (the garter). I have so many questions though. She is kinda small for pinky's yet, I think (only as big around as my finger, and about 12 in long ) but the fish thing seems like a good Idea. This may be a dumb question but do I have to cook the fish first? And I don't know what the silverside thing is. I also need to know where I can get the vitamin powder? And also red wigglers? I don't know the difference between those and Earth worms. How often would I feed her this new diet? And would alternating earthworms and the salmon be okay? Then adding the vitamins every third or forth feeding? I feel like I know nothing now that I know I have been doing it all wrong. I'm sorry if I'm bugging anyone it just seems you all know so much more then what I learned from the pet store. I also know my son will want another snake and before I get one I want to know more about them. He has wanted a ball python but I feel he is to young and I am slightly intimidated by them. He also wants a corn snake and I think that might be more my speed. But again I need to know more. Thank you again everyone for your help. It was so nice of everyone to be so supportive and not judgmental. xoxo

First of all, and most importantly, I want to extend my condolences to you and your son for your loss. It is always tough losing a pet, but sometimes, as weird as this sounds, losing some pets is harder than losing others, especially when you put so much effort into ensuring their survival.
Next, don't punish yourself over losing your snake. As has been stated both here and elsewhere, pet stores, for the most part, know very little about reptiles as pets and will say anything that sounds good as long as it results in a sale of their animal. Chances are very good your snake may have been sick even before you got him and the disease just went undetected to the point where, when it finally did become apparent something was wrong, it was just simply too late. Take comfort in the fact he is not suffering anymore.
As for diets, I am not well versed on diets for snakes such as your Garter so I won't even begin to try and tell you waht's right and what's wrong to feed it. However, in regards to getting a Ball Python for your son, in all actuality, these are probably the best snakes for your son to have, as well as you. I have found in my experiences with Corn, Milk, and Garter snakes that they seem to have wicked tempers at time and resort very easily to striking and biting. This can intimidate a young one and turn him or her off from even handling the reptile. Balls on the other hand are extremely forgiving, and I don't carer what anyone says, if you show them you care and are not there to hurt them, they will be one of the best pets you could ask for. I am finding that out already with the pair I have now. Plus, Balls don't need vitamin supplements and they are more easily fed, for the most part, than the other snakes you are considering. I would suggest getting a young Ball Python so it can grow with your son, as well as yourself. By doing so, both you, your son and the snake will grow up to know what to expect from eachother. It's just a suggestion, but I sincerely hope you put some serious thought into it.
Finally, no matter what type of snake you do decide on getting, please purchase one from a specialized breeder. The information, help and knowledge you will have access to will be immeasurable which can only result in positive results from your next husbandry attempt with a snake. I wish you all the best of luck and no matter what snake you decide to purchase, with your concersn there is no doubt it will have a happy, healthy home to live in for many years to come.

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Originally Posted by gulpysmom

Thank you all so much for your help unfortunately Gulpy died shortly after arriving home from the vet. The vet said it did in deed seem to be something neurological. And he wasn't able to breath as well as he should. As everything else seemed to be normal. I will definitely be more careful with the diet of little Rosie (the garter). I have so many questions though. She is kinda small for pinky's yet, I think (only as big around as my finger, and about 12 in long ) but the fish thing seems like a good Idea. This may be a dumb question but do I have to cook the fish first? And I don't know what the silverside thing is. I also need to know where I can get the vitamin powder? And also red wigglers? I don't know the difference between those and Earth worms. How often would I feed her this new diet? And would alternating earthworms and the salmon be okay? Then adding the vitamins every third or forth feeding? I feel like I know nothing now that I know I have been doing it all wrong. I'm sorry if I'm bugging anyone it just seems you all know so much more then what I learned from the pet store. I also know my son will want another snake and before I get one I want to know more about them. He has wanted a ball python but I feel he is to young and I am slightly intimidated by them. He also wants a corn snake and I think that might be more my speed. But again I need to know more. Thank you again everyone for your help. It was so nice of everyone to be so supportive and not judgmental. xoxo

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Small pinky mice should be fine. Thaw them out in a plastic baggie with some salmon or trout in it to marinate the scent in.

Silversides (smelt) can be bought by the bag at many places that specialize in selling tropical fish. Since they are whole, you wouldn't need to supplement them with any powders.

I am not an expert on earthworms - I buy mine from a bait shop that has assured me for years that they are not red wigglers. I tend to feed them lettuce and other veggies for about a week before I offer them to my snakes to clean out any gunk they may have in their systems.

Try the silversides. Thaw a couple out in tepid water until they are room temperature - you want to make sure that they are still not frozen. Offer them with a pair of feeding tongs. If they are too big, cut them into pieces.

If you can get him on silversides, feed him three weeks of the month on them and then try the pinky mice. The earthworms should be an occasional treat.

I think a corn snake is a great choice as a pet. As a rule they are generally docile, forgiving of small husbandry mistakes and disinclined to bite. As with any species, there are exceptions to the rule.............

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Originally Posted by grim reaper in NY

First of all, and most importantly, I want to extend my condolences to you and your son for your loss. It is always tough losing a pet, but sometimes, as weird as this sounds, losing some pets is harder than losing others, especially when you put so much effort into ensuring their survival.
Next, don't punish yourself over losing your snake. As has been stated both here and elsewhere, pet stores, for the most part, know very little about reptiles as pets and will say anything that sounds good as long as it results in a sale of their animal. Chances are very good your snake may have been sick even before you got him and the disease just went undetected to the point where, when it finally did become apparent something was wrong, it was just simply too late. Take comfort in the fact he is not suffering anymore.
As for diets, I am not well versed on diets for snakes such as your Garter so I won't even begin to try and tell you waht's right and what's wrong to feed it. However, in regards to getting a Ball Python for your son, in all actuality, these are probably the best snakes for your son to have, as well as you. I have found in my experiences with Corn, Milk, and Garter snakes that they seem to have wicked tempers at time and resort very easily to striking and biting. This can intimidate a young one and turn him or her off from even handling the reptile. Balls on the other hand are extremely forgiving, and I don't carer what anyone says, if you show them you care and are not there to hurt them, they will be one of the best pets you could ask for. I am finding that out already with the pair I have now. Plus, Balls don't need vitamin supplements and they are more easily fed, for the most part, than the other snakes you are considering. I would suggest getting a young Ball Python so it can grow with your son, as well as yourself. By doing so, both you, your son and the snake will grow up to know what to expect from eachother. It's just a suggestion, but I sincerely hope you put some serious thought into it.
Finally, no matter what type of snake you do decide on getting, please purchase one from a specialized breeder. The information, help and knowledge you will have access to will be immeasurable which can only result in positive results from your next husbandry attempt with a snake. I wish you all the best of luck and no matter what snake you decide to purchase, with your concersn there is no doubt it will have a happy, healthy home to live in for many years to come.

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Thank you so much for your kind words. It is nice to know others don't blame me as much as I do myself. My son was so upset he stayed home from school. He decorated a box for him and we burried him in the back yard.

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Originally Posted by gulpysmom

Thank you so much for your kind words. It is nice to know others don't blame me as much as I do myself. My son was so upset he stayed home from school. He decorated a box for him and we burried him in the back yard.

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I hope you are going to get a digital thermometer. There is no reason to not spend the 12$. Especially considering your vet said it was neurological, high heat can cause neurological symptoms.

Be smart, get a thermometer.

Although i don't know much about garters, it sounds like thiamin defecinacy. As for a ball python, they are not intimidating, they are often smaller in length than corns and very rarely bite. They don't need any extra vitamins and can be kept in a 20 gallon tank for a young one.
I am very sorry for you and your sons loss