Anaphylactic Shock?

My 3 year old female BP has not been interested in eating since Christmas. Up to this point she was feeding on F/T mice then rats, gradually getting them larger. She ate the last two "weanling" rats I had in one feeding in the first week of December. She ate one "small" rat a few days prior to Christmas Day, and since then has not eaten. Based on advice from my Vet I took her in for an exam. She was given a clean bill of health, he said she was a beautiful healthy snake. He did recommend de-worming medication as an annual treatment, so I allowed it. The next 10 hours were a nightmare. The medication sent her in to anaphylactic shock, something he said was VERY rare in Ball Phythons. She was placed on oxygen and given medication. She survived the ordeal (2 weeks ago), but is still not showing any signs of wanting to eat.

I am now wanting to improve her second hiding space by enlarging the base of a "tree" in her enclosure.

So here is my first question to anyone out there who has great knowledge in this area. What kind of wood should I avoid putting in her enclosure? I was thinking about a hardwood like maple for the base expansion, but I do not want to do anything that can possibly endanger her again.

My second question is if anyone has any idea why she would suddenly stop eating? I have tried going back to the smaller rats (weanling), but she is not interested in those either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed Chisholm

My 3 year old female BP has not been interested in eating since Christmas. Up to this point she was feeding on F/T mice then rats, gradually getting them larger. She ate the last two "weanling" rats I had in one feeding in the first week of December. She ate one "small" rat a few days prior to Christmas Day, and since then has not eaten. Based on advice from my Vet I took her in for an exam. She was given a clean bill of health, he said she was a beautiful healthy snake. He did recommend de-worming medication as an annual treatment, so I allowed it. The next 10 hours were a nightmare. The medication sent her in to anaphylactic shock, something he said was VERY rare in Ball Phythons. She was placed on oxygen and given medication. She survived the ordeal (2 weeks ago), but is still not showing any signs of wanting to eat.

I am now wanting to improve her second hiding space by enlarging the base of a "tree" in her enclosure.

So here is my first question to anyone out there who has great knowledge in this area. What kind of wood should I avoid putting in her enclosure? I was thinking about a hardwood like maple for the base expansion, but I do not want to do anything that can possibly endanger her again.

My second question is if anyone has any idea why she would suddenly stop eating? I have tried going back to the smaller rats (weanling), but she is not interested in those either.

---

Your enclosure sounds a bit sketchy.. could you give us a rundown on her husbandry, temperatures, humidity, substrate, and pictures of the enclosure if possible?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say your vet sounds like they do not know what they are doing. BPs go off feed all the time, they are notorious for it. And I would think any competent herp vet would know that... I also find it difficult to believe a BP would go into anaphylaxis over a dewormer. I am more inclined to think it was overdosed and what you were seeing was toxic effects and the vet pulled a CYA with the anaphylaxis excuse.

There is no real need to deworm a CBB ball anyways...

As for why your animal went off feed... As I said, they just do sometimes. I had an animal go off for 4 months. Then he started eating again like nothing had happened. I have heard of them going a year. So long as they are looking and acting healthy then just keep presenting with food on a regular basis. They will eat when they are ready

She has a large enclosure with sliding front glass doors (purchased from a BP owner & Dealer). The enclosure measures about 36" Wide, 20" tall and 20" deep. The humidity remains in the 70 - 90% range. The temperature is regulated by a reostat adjusting an under the tank heater, so the floor can get upwards of 100 degrees, but the temperature 1/2 way up the enclosure is usually around 80 degrees. She has never been bred. Her substrate was "Jungle Bed" but I read that is was "okay" for ball Pythons, so I switched to substrate that was listed as "Perfect or ideal" for BP's. She has a 1/2 log hide area that is 1/2 on and 1/2 off the heated area of the floor, so she is on the heated area at times, and off of it at times. She has a large water dish, and piece of wood to climb (purchased from a BP dealer). The second hide area is a fake tree with a hollow base. She has grown too large to get all the way inside, o that is why I was expanding the base to create more room.

I would avoid anything porous in an enclosure. Just gives bad stuff a place to grow. And, nothing like live prey to break a fast.

Why is your humidity so high? Are you using dials or digital gauges? Your hides should match 100% and be secure and snug - security is important to bps and often is the reason they go off feed.

your vet doesnt know what he or she is doing! PERIOD! they almost killed your animal because so. did he give it a fecal exam? if not he shouldnt be treating anything! annual deworming also is not needed, but a fecal could be done annually but isnt typically needed. all he was doing was trying to fool you into more money for something that was more than likely not needed!

another note some meds can and will kill the natural bacteria in the stomach which would also lead to the snake not wating to eat.

ball pythons do not need trees! also wood is bad because you cannot disinfect it.

my advice here is to find a real herp vet because this fool obviously slept through their 1 week class on reptiles.

also you ball probally isnt eating because of that humidity. it should be around 60% tops

For future reference, a full grown female BP will often go off feed in the winter months. It is very common. Get a scale and start monitoring your BP's weight. If she isn't loosing a considerable amount of weight, there is nothing to worry about.

You really need to re-do your husbandry. Sounds like you have a lot of things that are off that can also cause a snake to go off feed.

I would highly suggest moving her into a 41qt tub with paper towel substrate. I would get 1 identical plastic rock cave type hides. These should be very tight fitting and snug.

Get a UTH that is controlled with a thermostat. 100* spikes can burn your snake! You should set the thermostat at 94*.

You should be monitoring your temps digitally with probes. There is a great unit called the accurite weather station that will get the job done for you.
http://www.weatherconnection.com/pro...9964&s=froogle
Stick the probe on the inside of the enclosure right on top of the UTH, under the substrate. Then put the entire unit in the enclosure on the cool side.

Your humidity should come WAY down. constant humidity that high can easily cause a respiratory infection.

Also, get a new herp vet who is more qualified.

Thanks for your help. I have read a bunch on the BP, but "talking" with people like you with experience is a lot better. I have had nothing but success for the first three years, that is why it was such a surprise when she stopped feeding. I do use a thermostat with a probe inside the unit. The temperature at 100 is under the substrate, the substrate top ranges around 85- 95, depending on if the heater is going off an on. I will mae sure the humidity goes down, I do not keep it that high consistently. When she goes in shed mode I raise it, otherwise I try to maintain it between 50 -70%. You have been very helpful, and I will find another vet is I have a need in the future.

Folks, this is obviously a pet snake that the owner prefers to offer a more visibly appealing home to. While that can be more of a struggle to maintain it's not at all inappropriate in this situation - at least in my opinion.

Ed, I'm no vet but I do think it's odd for any vet to automatically deworm any animal when there's no fecal done first to determine what, if any, worms are present and there's no indication that the animal is anything other than healthy (which by your post the vet himself/herself determined was the case). I would hesitate to take that snake back to that vet again.

If possible could you post pics of this enclosure so we might help you tweak it a bit. It's a bit off on a couple of numbers but again, that's all fixable. As far as wood in there, I'd be careful just due to the tendency to build up bacteria on natural products in the warm, high humidity environment of a typical BP enclosure.

I would also suggest a decent digital scale. I use the DX-7001 but really any good digital scale either meant for the kitchen or a postal type scale is good as long as it weighs in grams and goes high enough to hold the weight of a mature female BP. You can find them online or at most bigger department stores or office supply stores for around $30 or so.

A lot of sexually mature snakes go off feed in the cooler months. In the wild she would be mating, building her eggs, laying them and then staying coiled on them until they hatched. Even though she's captive, those same urges still exist. As long as she's not losing any big amount of weight and she's obviously healthy just continue to offer her prey on a weekly or bi-weekly basis and when she's ready - she'll eat.

Thanks for your help with this. I am learning as I go here. The Hide/Tree was purchased when I purchased the half log hide from a reputable dealer of snakes, including balls. They never told me that the two hides should match 100%. She really seems to "enjoy" the tree one, spending a lot of time accross the branches, and under it in the hide.

Some of them really don't care Ed quite honestly but some ball pythons can get very picky about their hides and will not thermoregulate properly because they have to leave "their favorite hide". Having identical hides basically tricks these picky types into moving hide to hide since they are all the very same. As I said though, some ball pythons could care less as long as it's comfy, dark and enclosing them securely so in the end it's up to you to know your own snake's preferences that way.

Wow, again thanks. Yes, I would place her firmly in the "Pampered Pet" catagory. She appears to be very happy and not stressed (until recent discussed episode with vet). She comes out to the glass when we enter the room, is out of her hides quite a bit. when we handle her she never balls up, and seems quite content to crawl around and over us. She is actually me 9 yera old daughter's snake, and she absolutely loves her. I will try to figute out how to get a picture posted.

I have to agree with Jo. There is no reason to deworm a snake annually. There is not reason to do it the first time with out first doing a fecal float. Anaphylaxis is a reptile is almost unheard of I curious how exactly your vet knew that's what it was. The fact that it was brought on by a common de-wormer is even more troubling. What did your vet give as a de-worming agent and did they mention any long term effects on organs due to the anaphylaxis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed Chisholm

Wow, again thanks. Yes, I would place her firmly in the "Pampered Pet" catagory. She appears to be very happy and not stressed (until recent discussed episode with vet). She comes out to the glass when we enter the room, is out of her hides quite a bit. when we handle her she never balls up, and seems quite content to crawl around and over us. She is actually me 9 yera old daughter's snake, and she absolutely loves her. I will try to figute out how to get a picture posted.

---

Unfortunately, though this doesn't seem like stress to us, this is very stressful behavior of a ball python. You should hardly ever see your snake outside it's hide, it should almost always be in his hide, hiding and sleeping. If your animal is not eating, it could be stressed out, and the activity you see is a search for a better hiding spot.

If the 'tree' hide your talking about looks like this: https://www.pet-supply-store.co.uk/p...599043-150.jpg
it is a bad hiding place for a ball python, with little security and is almost always not tight enough for the animal.

Also, make the temperature under the substrate 95F, if it's 100, it's possible the snake will burrow down and burn himself.

Buy a new hide, don't expand the base of the hide. Get something like this:
http://www.reptilebasics.com/Large-H...x-p-16376.html
That size is very good for an adult, and fits my largest adult very well.

Exactly how large is your snake?

She is 38 inches long now. I uploaded a picture of the enclosure, it is at http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/...er_in_cage.jpg
If you view the picture you will see that the first hide (1/2 log) is exactly like the one you say is bad. The second "tree hide" has a much smaller opening and is much tighter (she seems to prefer this one), but it is now too small and the thing basically just sits on top of her when she gets under it. She stays in the hide(s) all day, and comes out at night when it is dark in her room, that is when we can find her on the branch or in the tree.

My vet did not mention any long term damage, simply I do not think he knows. He reported to me that he gives the same medicine to all the snakes he cares for and has never had a reaction like this. Her head was very swollen for the initial couple of hours, looking just like a pit viper of some sort. She stayed hidden in her hides for the first 10 days or so following the vet episode, but now seems to be returning to her "normal" behavior (that I observed prior to the episode). lst night she looked "hungry" for the first time in a while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed Chisholm

She is 38 inches long now. I uploaded a picture of the enclosure, it is at http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/...er_in_cage.jpg
If you view the picture you will see that the first hide (1/2 log) is exactly like the one you say is bad. The second "tree hide" has a much smaller opening and is much tighter (she seems to prefer this one), but it is now too small and the thing basically just sits on top of her when she gets under it. She stays in the hide(s) all day, and comes out at night when it is dark in her room, that is when we can find her on the branch or in the tree.

---

Ah well if she's only out cruising around at night then she's likely just fine. I think the concern was that she's doing the stressed searching behaviours that you'd see if she didn't have appropriate places to hide in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed Chisholm

My vet did not mention any long term damage, simply I do not think he knows. He reported to me that he gives the same medicine to all the snakes he cares for and has never had a reaction like this. Her head was very swollen for the initial couple of hours, looking just like a pit viper of some sort. She stayed hidden in her hides for the first 10 days or so following the vet episode, but now seems to be returning to her "normal" behavior (that I observed prior to the episode). lst night she looked "hungry" for the first time in a while.

---

Ed, just due to the stress of all this and any concerns with how it might have affected her I'd be careful on her first couple of feeds. Personally if I had a snake that just went through all this I'd likely offer her a quite small meal for a couple of weeks, watch that she took it easily, didn't regurge it and then work her back to her normal sized prey. I tend to be overly cautious I know but I'd rather offer a couple of smaller meals then deal with a stress or health induced regurge.

We do have a list here of recommended exotics vets. I don't know where you live but perhaps you might find another vet listed there. Another option is to contact the closest good zoo to you that has a decent reptile collection and ask them for the name of the vet that provides their health care.

P.S. Just noted you are in Fort Worth and I don't believe we have a vet listed for there yet.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=56792

Joanna, Thanks for the web address list, you are right, there are none listed close to me. I love San Antonio, but I do not think she would like a 5 hour each way trip to see the doc. Since she is looking like she might be interested in eating again I will try one of the smaller weanling rats I have. Wish me luck.

Yea I personally would always get a 2nd opinion from another vet, I know it can be expensive going to a bunch of different vets but I would say find one that you are most comfortable with and that you can afford. It would be like you going to a doctor complaining of dizziness, vomiting, losing vision, etc and they recommend eye surgery. And afterwards you go to another doctor who does further tests and determines you have a massive tumor sitting on your brain stem and it needs to be removed before you slip into a coma (true story)... If you had simply trusted the first doctor's opinion you would more than likely not be on earth. I'm by no means trying to equate the seriousness of human illness with a snake, even though we all love our pets. It's just an example.
But seriously let's face it, there are some incompetent vets out there that obviously have their degree but for whatever reason are so used to treating other types of animals that they either do not have exotic experience or do not hold exotics in as high esteem as a dog, cat, etc. I've been to 3 vets in the past year or so for my snakes. Some are extremely knowledgeable but are very expensive and do not have good people skills.. Some treat a wide range of animals and therefore think that baytril is the universal answer to every pet's ailment (I'm not knocking baytril, it's just sometimes more specific medication for a certain condition is needed). And lastly there are the very friendly vets who treat your pet well, understand how special they are to you, and give you the most value for your dollar and do not try to recommend unnecessary procedures just to swindle you. I was fortunate enough to find one of these.
Ok so besides my rambling, as far as the type of wood I've always heard that the oils in cedar can lead to respiratory infections? Someone correct me if that's wrong :P And good luck with your snake.

Two of the books that I picked up on BP's when I got the snake said that I should have the temperature drop at night, yet all I read on this site indicates tht I should keep it consistent all the time (unless breeding). I have a timer set on my Thermostat to the heater that cuts the heater off for several hours overnight. I guess I should remove the timer and have the heat stay consistent. Also I see the accu-rite is recommended for proper measurement of humidity & heat. They say they are at Walmart, any idea what section of the store?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed Chisholm

Two of the books that I picked up on BP's when I got the snake said that I should have the temperature drop at night, yet all I read on this site indicates tht I should keep it consistent all the time (unless breeding). I have a timer set on my Thermostat to the heater that cuts the heater off for several hours overnight. I guess I should remove the timer and have the heat stay consistent. Also I see the accu-rite is recommended for proper measurement of humidity & heat. They say they are at Walmart, any idea what section of the store?

---

Well Ed I'm gonna go with the thermometer section of the store. I'm just kidding, it's my nature to be facetious( thats my big word of the day). That's actually a good question. I'd like to tell you the knowledgeable people at wal-mart will point you straight there (but they won't because they don't know.) I asked 4 or 5 people then went on an acurite quest. Try back in the home/hardware in my wallyworld thats back by the back restrooms. Good luck and be careful, If your wal-mart is anything like mine you'll need it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed Chisholm

Two of the books that I picked up on BP's when I got the snake said that I should have the temperature drop at night, yet all I read on this site indicates tht I should keep it consistent all the time (unless breeding). I have a timer set on my Thermostat to the heater that cuts the heater off for several hours overnight. I guess I should remove the timer and have the heat stay consistent. Also I see the accu-rite is recommended for proper measurement of humidity & heat. They say they are at Walmart, any idea what section of the store?

---

Unfortunately some books are rather out of date on current husbandry methods, Ed. From all I learned from the experienced folks here and have ever done myself, night drops are unnecessary. The only time you want to fiddle with their temps is during breeding season and that's only to cool adults to encourage courting and breeding behaviours.

Acu-Rites are usually found either in hardware or in or around the garden or outdoor weather station areas of most WalMarts. I've heard lately though they are getting hard to find so also check Lowe's and Home Depot for a similar product though under a different brand name. If you need a picture of what you are looking for just holler.

My walmart no longer carries thermometers with probes (bummer!) so I have to make due with the ones from my work (Home Depot). Its always good if you can get your hands on one that can multi task with indoor/outdoor temp and humidity measuring, that way you know ambient temps, surface temps as well as humidity. Most hardware stores carry some version as Joanna mentioned.

Well if all else fails and you can't locate an Acu-Rite or something very similar try googling for Chaney Instruments. If memory serves they are the manufacturers of the Acu-Rite indoor/outdoor thermometer.

Jo,

Target actually has a decent Thermometer/hygrometer with probe. -Smiles.-

Once again, you all have been very helpful. I will give it a shot. Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melicious

Jo,

Target actually has a decent Thermometer/hygrometer with probe. -Smiles.-

---

Excellent thanks! Is it in the range of the others (around $10 or so) and what's the brand name hon?

Hello all. I followed the advice that you all provided, and I made some changes to my BP's habitat. I took a new picture, located here: http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/.../2/habitat.jpg
I now have two identical hides, one on the cool side, one on the warm side. I have a accu-rite thermometer & hydrometer. I mounted the temperature probe next to the heat control probe on the hot side on the tank floor (under substrate). The tree is gone, but I left her branch for help shedding (have seen her usining in in the past). I am in the process of tweaking the settings, but so far after one night I have the following readings. Hot side is averaging 89 degrees (86 - 92) depending on the heating element going off and on. The cold side stays right about 72 degrees. The humidity started high around 70%, but I am getting it lower. This morning it was at 66%.

I purchased the accu-rite at Lowe's, it was only $12.00.

Still looking for advice to ensure our snake is happy & healthy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed Chisholm

Hello all. I followed the advice that you all provided, and I made some changes to my BP's habitat. I took a new picture, located here: http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/.../2/habitat.jpg
I now have two identical hides, one on the cool side, one on the warm side. I have a accu-rite thermometer & hydrometer. I mounted the temperature probe next to the heat control probe on the hot side on the tank floor (under substrate). The tree is gone, but I left her branch for help shedding (have seen her usining in in the past). I am in the process of tweaking the settings, but so far after one night I have the following readings. Hot side is averaging 89 degrees (86 - 92) depending on the heating element going off and on. The cold side stays right about 72 degrees. The humidity started high around 70%, but I am getting it lower. This morning it was at 66%.

I purchased the accu-rite at Lowe's, it was only $12.00.

Still looking for advice to ensure our snake is happy & healthy.

---

Sounds like your on your way to a happy healthy snake.

Best thing now is to just let you animal acclimate to it new enviroment for a week or so before you handle or feed.

Best of luck