BP rubbed belly too hard, scale rot?! naw...

hi,

Logan, my 8 month old, 50% mojave BP(sister, of a mojave, she's got a nice yellow tint) rubbed her belly too hard during shedding and is missing two belly scales. The area is white with very slight reddish coloring.
I bathe her 2x daily in warm water, and apply Neosporin(NOT extra strength because that can harm her). When she's touched, she's not in any discomfort. Temps. are fine.

I changed substrate from aspen to paper towels. She was always on aspen since she was hatched, so she likes it ;) but wanted something smoother for her belly for a while. Should I be worried about her?

My old BP sadly passed from scale rot; part of it my fault :( I don't wish to see this again. Logan has never been exposed to any fabric etc. that could spread parasites. Cage is always clean.
She's kind of a slow eater; for a young one she seems to wanna eat every 20 days! my old BP ate every 2 weeks. hmmm. Logan's behavior is still normal

Should I be worried? please e-mail me at jseconds77@hotmail.com if any one knows something of use.

I'd wait and see how it heals to go getting upset. Patience, grasshopper.

I'm no expert by any means, but I think that a young ball that doesn't want to eat more frequently than every 20 days sounds like a problem to me.

Not eating is usually a sign of a problem, either with husbandry and temps or a health problem with the snake such as parasites.

Hopefully somebody more experienced can help but they will want to know:

Do you have 2 identical hides, one on the warm side and one on the cool side?
What are your temps on each side and how are you monitoring and controlling them?
What is your humidity?
What size/type enclosure?

What size/type prey are you offering? Do you pre-scent the room?

...Besides that I have never heard of a BP getting a raw belly from rubbing on aspen... But just because I know nothing about it doesn't mean anything...

My first thought though would be that it's something else like a burn or scale rot or maybe just pink because it's about to shed? Though again, I'm no expert.

Good luck

Oh an bathing 2x a day sounds stressful to me. It sounds too frequent. Perhaps get some iodine and put a small amount in the water (till it looks like weak tea) and bathe him in that every other day.

Somebody else agree or disagree with this?

I'm not confident in my advice-giving yet I suppose... But 2x a day sounds intense to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by logan77

hi,

Logan, my 8 month old, 50% mojave BP(sister, of a mojave, she's got a nice yellow tint) rubbed her belly too hard during shedding and is missing two belly scales. The area is white with very slight reddish coloring.
I bathe her 2x daily in warm water, and apply Neosporin(NOT extra strength because that can harm her). When she's touched, she's not in any discomfort. Temps. are fine.

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She's a normal, there is no such thing as a "50% mojave". It's either you is or you isn't sort of thing. She would be called a normal or at most a mojave sib but not 50% mojave.

I'm not sure about this rubbed too hard thing. What could she have rubbed on so hard in her enclosure since aspen would not remove scales. Did you help her during that shed at all?

I would stop the twice daily baths. There's no reason for that that I can think of and it is a stressful experience for a snake like a ball python. I would just keep her on the paper towel and apply the neosporin very sparingly every day to the affected area. Watch for any signs of infection and speak to a vet is there is a concern about that.

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She's kind of a slow eater; for a young one she seems to wanna eat every 20 days! my old BP ate every 2 weeks. hmmm. Logan's behavior is still normal

Should I be worried? please e-mail me at jseconds77@hotmail.com if any one knows something of use.

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Every 20 days? That's a long span for a such a young snake to go between meals. What are you feeding her as far as type of prey? What size is this prey? What type of feeding method are you using? Do you feed in the enclosure or in a seperate feeding container?

You said "temps are okay" but what is okay to you? What temps? How are you measuring them? What is the ambient humidity of her enclosure?

hi,

thanks for the replies!
Logan must've rubbed on her log too hard.

In a 10 gallon tall tank:

temps: day time cold side- 70
under basking lamp- 93
inside hide box 98.6(hide box is black plastic so it radiates heat)
middle of cage temp is 66

night time cold side 63
inside hide box 86
basking log n/a

when I got her back in Nov. I offered her food every 2 weeks. She was immediately only interested in bigger mice. So that's what I offer.
bear in mind, she just shed mid month, but I figured after shedding and going potty she'd be hungry by now.
I feed her the brown bagger method: staple it shut, supervise and go for it!

I could try dark colored mice. or frozen/thawed. I won't go crazy and import african short hair mice...that's nuts...
Unlike Fermina, Logan acts normal and sits and waits during the day, roams around at night. Logan, since I got her always seems to sleep on the cold side or at least right in the middle of the cage.

She DOES NOT have any burns. UTH is not stuck directly on the glass, the tank is raised on furniture sliders to prevent this. There's no way Logan has access directly to the glass. Basking lamp is safely secured above the screen top.

she always asks dis-interested in food; breeder said she was a strong eater but not a strong striker at prey. she's always eaten up til now.
I'll try again tonight.

Just off the top of my head:

99 degrees on the hot side is RIDICULOUSLY high.

63 degrees is too cold at night, and 66 ambient is WAY too low.

Putting your snake into a bag with a live mouse is a terrible idea.


Like I said, that's just off the top of my head. Someone else chime in.

Also, someone asked how you are measuring your temps? Stick on gauges? Accurite?

99 is under the basking lamp during the day. she can move away from the basking area any time. she cannot get thermal burn because it's just a light source. sometimes she stretches out.
70 degrees cold side is fine. I can jack it up to 75.
she's always roaming around the cold side, sleeps there during the day.
night time she's in the hide box at 88.
she knows what temps are best.

the brown bag method is quite a proven idea for feeding BP's.
I can also feed her in an opaque sweater box. she's most responsive to the bag method, since as a younger snake she's grown accustomed to it from her days before I owned her.

thanks! I'll keep ya updated

oh, temps are measured with reliable, digital thermom. with a probe.
humidity is 55%

As far as importing food to feed her, never heard of anyone having to do that as many people breed these rats. Try rats that are the right size, and if not that try to get African Soft Furs.

The temps are off drastically.
Get the hot side to stay at 88-92 24/7, the coldest area needs to be no lower than 75 24/7. Ball Pythons temps should be constant unless breeding them. I would by a UTH and Thermostat to control temps.

The scales missing seems strange, keep it clean and watch it if anymore go missing take her to a vet.

Please, keep in mind we only want to help. You seem like you're getting a little defensive, which is understandable, but please don't shut us out. I am sorry if suggesting a burn was offensive to you as you obviously care about your snake but we are trying to get to the bottom of the problem so we can help you.

99 does seem too hot and 63 way too cold!

Also how old is she that you only offered prey every 2 weeks?

Most people will say that a young (under 6 months to a year) ball should be offered food every 5-7 days, and older balls should be offered food every 7-10 days.

Also you mentioned another snake, I think? ...They aren't being housed in the same enclosure together, are they? If so then that would be the likely cause of why your snake isn't eating.

Good luck

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Originally Posted by logan77

99 is under the basking lamp during the day. she can move away from the basking area any time. she cannot get thermal burn because it's just a light source. sometimes she stretches out.
70 degrees cold side is fine. I can jack it up to 75.
she's always roaming around the cold side, sleeps there during the day.
night time she's in the hide box at 88.
she knows what temps are best.

the brown bag method is quite a proven idea for feeding BP's.
I can also feed her in an opaque sweater box. she's most responsive to the bag method, since as a younger snake she's grown accustomed to it from her days before I owned her.

thanks! I'll keep ya updated

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AH, where to start...

1.) as has already been pointed out, 99 degrees is too high. The idea that a snake will not burn itself "because it is a light source" is dead wrong.

2.) 63 - 70 degrees on the cold side is never "just fine"

3.) Yes, a snake does thermoregulate itself, but it does NOT know when hot is too hot. That is how snakes get burned.... they will sit there and allow themselves to get burned. Mother nature did not equip them with the know how to deal with your poor husbandry.

4.) So tell me, how exactly do you put the snake in a paper bag, add a live mouse/ rat, staple it shut, then supervise? I am sorry, but that is the most retarded idea I have ever heard.

Look, I don't mean to sound like a jerk... but you really have to do some reading. You are doing a lot of things wrong, but every one of them are fixable. We all started somewhere. Please, for the sake of your animals, read, read, read. You will be surprised by what you learn!

Alright bud, seems like you need some setup help ASAP.

First off, read this twice:

http://ball-pythons.net/modules/Sect...warticle&id=59

1) Your cage and humidity is fine, don't worry about that.
2) You're gonna want a hot spot no hotter than 95*F.
3) You're gonna want a cool spot no cooler than 75*F.
4) You're gonna want 2 identical hides, one on the cool and one on the hot.
5) You're gonna want actual hideouts: the kind in which you can't see the snake, and the kind if which the snake is surrounded on all sides (this is an excellent example: http://www.reptilebasics.com/Hide-Boxes-p-1-c-282.html)

Actually the brown bag method's been something I've tried and have had suggested to me for very stubborn feeders. However, you use either f/t prey or pinks that have no teeth. Before jumping down this member's throat, perhaps we should check on exactly what prey is going into that bag with that snake.

Let's please remember, as we strive to help people, that using words that drive someone away from you will not help them understand your point and ultimately will not get the snake the help you are striving to offer. Before I get accused of wanting to spoonfeed someone or candy coat it or whatever, remember that this site is here to a great extent to help newcomers. Helping newcomers can be a bit frustrating or time consuming. That help also can't be accomplished as efficiently when you let temper, impatience or your own ego become the greater part of your post.

If there's a problem, let's work the problem step by step with calm purpose. :)

thanks so much!
No, I'm not defensive, just protective ;)

I've adjusted the temps to nearly, as close as possible to what has been suggested. She seems to be a fan of sitting in the middle of the cage, between hot n' cold hiding within her log.

I will try feeding her in the opaque sweater box, again. Last night, she didn't seem too interested. Last time she ate I sprinkled chicken broth on the live mouse and she liked it. Perhaps she's somehow now afraid of live prey? I dunno...
I will attempt a frozen thawed mouse soon.

Logan's behavior is still normal for her. she drinks regularly, makes potty fine, sleeps in the day, and roams at night. when handled, she moves around nicely; but not enough to suggest being frightened or wanting to flee.

thanks!

JO,

I think everyone, including me went out of the way to be nice. I flat out said I was not trying to be a jerk, but pointing out serious problems.

As far as the brown bag feeding, the OP has already explained perfectly clear what they are doing in regards to feed size and type.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by logan77

She was immediately only interested in bigger mice. So that's what I offer....

I feed her the brown bagger method: staple it shut, supervise and go for it!...

I could try dark colored mice. or frozen/thawed.

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OP,

Thank you for not taking offense to what we are telling you. I am very happy to see you are making some changes. WE will be here every step of the way to help you out!

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

JO,

Everyone, including me went out of the way to be nice! I flat out said I was not trying to be a jerk, but pointing out serious problems.

As far as the brown bag feeding, the OP has already explained perfectly clear what they are doing in regards to feed size and type.

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Yes Mike I'm quite capable of reading thank you. What is not spelled out clearly is whether that mouse is alive or dead in that bag. An assumption was made that a larger live mouse was used. My suggestion would be to clarify on that point before using a word such as "retarded".

ok guys, thanks again. no online fighting from me...
let's stay on point and be there for each other. :)

Oh, to clarify. Fermina died last summer due to, what I think: mites that led to scale rot. I kept her on newspaper and I don't think that was a good idea.
I also made it too humid once and I think that did the trick :(
my old gf was also caring for her and let her crawl on her bed a few times, perhaps Fermina picked up something that way.
I took her to the vet, and she received a shot for the rot and it cleared up in like 3 days! BUT, somehow it eventually came back and attacked her aggresively.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Yes Mike I'm quite capable of reading thank you. What is not spelled out clearly is whether that mouse is alive or dead in that bag. An assumption was made that a larger live mouse was used. My suggestion would be to clarify on that point before using a word such as "retarded".

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That point was already clarified. Please read my above post again.

Easy tiger, I am on YOUR and everyone elses side!

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Originally Posted by logan77

ok guys, thanks again. no online fighting from me...
let's stay on point and be there for each other. :)

Oh, to clarify. Fermina died last summer due to, what I think: mites that led to scale rot. I kept her on newspaper and I don't think that was a good idea.
I also made it too humid once and I think that did the trick :(
my old gf was also caring for her and let her crawl on her bed a few times, perhaps Fermina picked up something that way.
I took her to the vet, and she received a shot for the rot and it cleared up in like 3 days! BUT, somehow it eventually came back and attacked her aggresively.

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scale rot is not caused by mites! its caused by bacterial infection of the skin or a fungus. this would be cause by high humidity and/or dirty unkept cage. what mites will do is add to stress which would compound the problem, but surely getting too humid once isnt enough to cause it. mites could of also passed something to the snake.

Did you say HOW you are measuring temps, or did I miss it?

can you provide us with any pictures?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by logan77

ok guys, thanks again. no online fighting from me...
let's stay on point and be there for each other. :)

Oh, to clarify. Fermina died last summer due to, what I think: mites that led to scale rot. I kept her on newspaper and I don't think that was a good idea.
I also made it too humid once and I think that did the trick :(
my old gf was also caring for her and let her crawl on her bed a few times, perhaps Fermina picked up something that way.
I took her to the vet, and she received a shot for the rot and it cleared up in like 3 days! BUT, somehow it eventually came back and attacked her aggresively.

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Newspaper absolutely did not cause any harm to the snake unless it was drenched it urine or feces. Many people use newspaper successfully for their snakes.

But lets not dwell on old mistakes. I am glad you have made some changes to your setup. Trust the people here. They give really great information and will lead to your snake having a great life.

Does she have two proper hides? one on the cool side one on the hot side? Are they both tight fitting?

I would highly recommend getting a UTH and a thermostat for maintaining a hot side belly temp and just using the light on a dimmer for supplemental heat. As you already noticed, the light cooks the inside of the one hide box. And yes, a light can cause burns. Have you ever gotten a sun burn?

All of these suggestions, if done correctly, will help make your snake more comfortable and more likely to eat for you without having to do a bunch of crazy voodoo magic to the mouse to make it "appealing" to the snake.

Wait a week before offering food again. During the next few days, make the necessary changes and make sure your temps are correct and stable. :)

Good luck!

im not sure, but i believe i read somewhere that newspaper CAN be detrimental to ball pythons if used as a substrate, because of the ink being so transferrable (have you ever washed a window with newspaper and vinegar water? the ink gets all over your hands. it cleans windows great though...) so im not saying its bad, just thought i'd put it out there. i use paper towels myself...:D
with the feeding problem, what i did, was take a prekilled rat (i had a HOG that would not eat at all) and put it half in, half out of his hide, right before lights out. i checked a couple hours later, fully expecting the rat to still be there, and all i saw was a tail hanging out of his mouth. :D i haven't heard of the chicken broth idea though, i will have to write that down...does anyone know if there are any adverse effects when using the chicken broth?

good luck!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m0esgirl

im not sure, but i believe i read somewhere that newspaper CAN be detrimental to ball pythons if used as a substrate, because of the ink being so transferrable (have you ever washed a window with newspaper and vinegar water? the ink gets all over your hands. it cleans windows great though...) so im not saying its bad, just thought i'd put it out there. i use paper towels myself...:D

good luck!!!

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i use nespaper, and wondered why a lot of people use unprinted paper and towels. but no vinegar oil is around my tubs, so maybe its ok.

where are the pictures?

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Originally Posted by azpythons

i use nespaper, and wondered why a lot of people use unprinted paper and towels. but no vinegar oil is around my tubs, so maybe its ok.

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lol i was just using it as an example that when newspaper gets wet, the ink, very easily, transfers to another surface. like if you have an old newspaper on your counter, and you accidentally get it wet, or splash it, ink gets on your counter. it just makes sense to me, and i was just mentioning that i read that, actually on this site, i believe. :D

hey all,

good news! I got a great deal on a 20 gallon long tank, so I caved ;)
Logan now has more temperature options!
I'm gettin' rid of that black plastic hide box, it radiates heat too much.
coolest thus far is 95.7. seems too hot to me. I could also get rid of the 75 watt heating bulb and go a little lower in wattage.

remember all, the hide box is right on top of the UTH. so I measure hide box temp INSIDE the black box, while the heating lamp is still on. just to clarify.
the tank is raised on furniture sliders, and the UTH is not stuck directly on the glass. I did a test of it that way once, and the temp shoots up to over 110 degrees!

for those who asked: chicken broth has no adverse effects, buy organic kind without any additives.

newspaper is a bad idea, cuz I learned the hard way. ink runs etc.

I also don't let Logan crawl on carpets or blankets. change the paper towels every day, regardless of potties, and water is changed twice daily!

c'mon, I'm doing my part :)

thanks all, will keep you posted...

Please realize newspaper is not bad.

Many experienced breeders use it without problem.

Isn't the ink in newspapers completely non toxic? I mean humans touch it for long periods of time every day...

The idea that newspaper ink is harmful to reptiles is a wives tale. Newspaper is hands down the best substrate (and easiest) you can use.

Other than the ink temporarily staining your snake it's not an issue and non-toxic so it's a fine substrate choice. So is aspen, so are a number of other snake safe bedding choices. It's all about what works for you and what's safe for your snake. :)

good news all,

Logan is roaming around again, I guess she needed more temp. options after all.
inside hide box temp is 91.6(remember heating lamp still reflects a little on top). new hide boxes are medium sized half logs. black plastic ones just radiate heat waaaay too much.

cold side, right around the stainless steel water dish is 65

cold side inside other hide box is 70

middle cage temp is 78.9

she seems "happy". I got a rheostat to crank down that damn UTH heat. that thing spikes like nothing!

she's interested in her prey, which resides by her cage...but tried feeding last night, though more interested...we have an un-confirmed kill. I will try a frozen thawed one once the week is out.

her belly is fine. pinkish. but not irritated and she displays no discomfort when I touch it. she will remain on paper towels for a while ;) applying neosporin every am.

skin looks fine, eyes fine, she's active(not a flight risk, I tested), humidity is 55%.

oh, and under basking lamp on log is 97. that's her sunning spot.

she seems to hang out in the middle of the cage.

Lose the lamp. Snakes don't need to bask or have a sunning spot. They get all the nutrients they need from their prey.

A properly regulated uth should be all you need.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m0esgirl

lol i was just using it as an example that when newspaper gets wet, the ink, very easily, transfers to another surface. like if you have an old newspaper on your counter, and you accidentally get it wet, or splash it, ink gets on your counter. it just makes sense to me, and i was just mentioning that i read that, actually on this site, i believe. :D

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All it can do is transfer some harmless staining to your snake's belly. Might not be pretty but it's not toxic at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by logan77

good news all,

Logan is roaming around again, I guess she needed more temp. options after all.
inside hide box temp is 91.6(remember heating lamp still reflects a little on top). new hide boxes are medium sized half logs. black plastic ones just radiate heat waaaay too much.

cold side, right around the stainless steel water dish is 65

cold side inside other hide box is 70

middle cage temp is 78.9

she seems "happy". I got a rheostat to crank down that damn UTH heat. that thing spikes like nothing!

she's interested in her prey, which resides by her cage...but tried feeding last night, though more interested...we have an un-confirmed kill. I will try a frozen thawed one once the week is out.

her belly is fine. pinkish. but not irritated and she displays no discomfort when I touch it. she will remain on paper towels for a while ;) applying neosporin every am.

skin looks fine, eyes fine, she's active(not a flight risk, I tested), humidity is 55%.

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Your cool temps are too cool. You want to aim for about 80-82 degrees cool side, 90-92 degrees warm side. No night drops, stable temps 24/7 365 unless you are actively breeding snakes.

Another suggestion is to use different hides. Those half logs are too open and won't help them feel very secure.

roaming is not good. Your np should be hiding. You are still not providing proper temps for your bp. You need to ditch the half logs. They are useless and provide no security for your snake. Make changes and wait a week before offering food.