My wc gravid

i would be very appreciative of helpful answers, please no import bashing. thank you! so i bought a supposed "wc gravid" and she had what i thought to be a pre lay shed 38 days ago, now i see her belly is all pink when i come home today...now my question is if she sheds again is she not gravid?? or do they get a pink belly before laying eggs? Id be really ticked if she ends up not being pregnant, since i asked the guy are they guaranteed to be gravid and he said yes guaranteed to be gravid but no guarantee on the amount of eggs....so did he create a loophole for himself by adding the no guarantee in the amount of eggs so could he be like it was gravid...with 0 eggs...or something. Man this was only supposed to be a one sentence thing...

All I can say is that if its gravid with 0 eggs, its not gravid. 1 egg, yes. 0 eggs, no.

Steve

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

All I can say is that if its gravid with 0 eggs, its not gravid. 1 egg, yes. 0 eggs, no.

Steve

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thats what i was thinking. but i know these days you can get away with a lot of stuff with the right word choice. i think im just growing too impatient.

Well since there's no "pregnancy" test for snakes that I know of it's basically an educated guess. He may have palpitated and felt eggs, he may have ultrasounded the snake (not likely but some big guys do have a machine) but nobody can guarantee a good egg outcome as far as I am concerned. She may well lay nothing but slugs or she may lay a whole clutch of perfect eggs. When you buy a gravid WC it makes the dice roll of breeding all that more chancey.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Well since there's no "pregnancy" test for snakes that I know of it's basically an educated guess. He may have palpitated and felt eggs, he may have ultrasounded the snake (not likely but some big guys do have a machine) but nobody can guarantee a good egg outcome as far as I am concerned. She may well lay nothing but slugs or she may lay a whole clutch of perfect eggs. When you buy a gravid WC it makes the dice roll of breeding all that more chancey.

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yes i understand that but i have a email where he says i guarantee theyll be gravid...so if she ends up not being gravid, i could get my money back and keep my wonderful snake? maybe get him to send me few nice hatchlings of what they kept??

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Originally Posted by azpythons

yes i understand that but i have a email where he says i guarantee theyll be gravid...so if she ends up not being gravid, i could get my money back and keep my wonderful snake? maybe get him to send me few nice hatchlings of what they kept??

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I seriously doubt you are going to get your money back and keep the snake if she's not gravid. Sounds like this deal wasn't made in full good faith if you're looking for loopholes already. But, since this isn't the BOI, I won't go any further down that road.

Chances of her dropping all slugs is something to concider. WC gravid females go through a lot of stress in a short breeding season. Not the optimal environment for egg production.

If your real desire is for hatchlings, why not just buy a few bags of CH babies?

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Originally Posted by azpythons

yes i understand that but i have a email where he says i guarantee theyll be gravid...so if she ends up not being gravid, i could get my money back and keep my wonderful snake? maybe get him to send me few nice hatchlings of what they kept??

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Seriously, are you interested in raising healthy hatchlings or just getting the most you can get for nothing? What exactly did this seller guarantee? What exactly did this seller specify if the snake turns out to not be gravid? Not what you assume or think you might get out of him....exactly what his guarantee said. Feel free to post a copy of this email guarantee if you like with personal information blacked out.

i wouldn't expect much from these clutches. i have seen these WC clutches and they just aren't good. the most of the eggs are bad. due to the stress of being shipped from africa and then being shipped to you, the eggs haven't really had a good place to develop inside of the females body.

don't get your hopes up on this! you may only get one good egg out of her. but one is better than none!

good luck!

Having ended up with a couple of these females after they've laid their clutches I really feel I have to say something on that subject (not bashing, just a comment really).

Az I hope you do have experience with getting a WC adult properly settled into captivity. WC adults, especially ones that come in gravid, can be highly stressed snakes. They can and will go on extremely long hunger strikes, can often have parasite loads both externally and internally and often are not in great physical shape due to shipping, overhandling and whatever rigors of living wild they survived prior to becoming gravid.

I hope you are ready for what may come for this female. She's not just a way to eggs. She needs and deserves a lot of work to allow her to live and thrive in captivity after she lays that clutch. Some do well, many do not and I've personally seen the results of the ones that don't do well and aren't made a priority in a collection.

She may give you eggs yet, but if she does not lay, then you could RETURN THE SNAKE FOR A REFUND, according to the guarentee you quoted. The snake must have egg(s) in order to qualify as gravid, so if she does not at least lay one slug.. then you got a non-gravid, which means you could get your money back BY RETURNING THE SNAKE.

I'm not sure why you feel you would be entitled to keep the snake, get your money back, and get some of his hatchlings?

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Having ended up with a couple of these females after they've laid their clutches I really feel I have to say something on that subject (not bashing, just a comment really).

Az I hope you do have experience with getting a WC adult properly settled into captivity. WC adults, especially ones that come in gravid, can be highly stressed snakes. They can and will go on extremely long hunger strikes, can often have parasite loads both externally and internally and often are not in great physical shape due to shipping, overhandling and whatever rigors of living wild they survived prior to becoming gravid.

I hope you are ready for what may come for this female. She's not just a way to eggs. She needs and deserves a lot of work to allow her to live and thrive in captivity after she lays that clutch. Some do well, many do not and I've personally seen the results of the ones that don't do well and aren't made a priority in a collection.

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I agree 1000% with FrankyKeno. WC's are a lot of work, they can and often do refuse to eat for MONTHS. Sometimes a year or more. Not even to mention the parasite load.

I have to wonder what the motivations were in buying a WC gravid female? Just you asking this question tells me that perhaps you don't understand the full aspects of breeding, but want to hatch eggs anyways without going through the full process with two adult animals.

Are you just looking for some hatchlings to raise and sell? I'm sure there are many breeders who would sell captive hatched or captive bred normal babies to you. Then you can work through getting babies to eat, and finding people to sell to. :gj:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

She may give you eggs yet, but if she does not lay, then you could RETURN THE SNAKE FOR A REFUND, according to the guarentee you quoted. The snake must have egg(s) in order to qualify as gravid, so if she does not at least lay one slug.. then you got a non-gravid, which means you could get your money back BY RETURNING THE SNAKE.

I'm not sure why you feel you would be entitled to keep the snake, get your money back, and get some of his hatchlings?

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1) I paid for a gravid snake with at least the chance id have one good egg out of the clutch, i know the possibility of laying all infertile eggs, but theres no guaranteeing all eggs would be infertile, so i dont think its too unreasonable to asumme at least 2 would of made it. If she was gravid, i wouldnt have to return her after she layed eggs, so why should i have to give her back if shes not gravid?? I do understand all the risks associated with wild caughts but have done my research and am prepared, and if i have any problems i thought thats what yall were here for. :gj:
yes i did want to have a experience with the eggs my incubator all that, but i also wanted the wc experience, which anyone who says unless you have experience dont do it, but if thats a rule then noone would have any experience right?? I know feeding troubles all that..but when i get my girl fully adapted, long road it may be, itll be all the more worth it.
And as far as his guarantee, i asked him straight up are the 100% percent guarnateed to be gravid, and he said yes they are, ill go post a copy later maybe, but it was as straightforward as that.

All in all i just want her to lay eggs, so i can see what babies are all about, im just looking for as much experience and info as i can get (which is why im on here 24-7) So perfect scenario is she ends up laying eggs sometimes here soon...then to the fun stuff!!! but if she doesnt, i dont think at the very least keeping the snake and getting my money back is not asking too much, its not like a broken toy, id rather jus keep the snake and let him have my money if it was like that.

heres a copy and paste of the email

>
>yes they are all gravid, but there is no guarantee on how many
>eggs
>or if there are a few that are slugs.
>
>Thanks
>
>John
>
>On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:50:19 -0500
>< wrote:
>>Ok and they are all 100 percent guaranteed to be gravid? Im sure
>>they are im just kind of new at this
so I wanna be double sure.

Guaranteed gravid at time of sale and guaranteed to lay are good eggs are not the same thing.

Who'd you buy from?

What is their TOS?

What do you have in writing?

If she lays all slugs, i know theres nothing to do obviously, she was gravid, but if she doesnt have any eggs, even slugs, thats what i meant this whole time.

Erm...
Why would you be entitled to keep the snake for no charge at all if it wasn't gravid? In a way, you paid for a snake that is carrying eggs, if your snake for some reaons is not carrying the eggs promised, then you ended up just paying for the snake, which should entitle you to a discount but not a full refund + free snake. :weirdface

In essence you actually got a faulty product (although I don't think it is a good analogy to make since I don't really like comparing living creatures to manufactured things) which should mean that you can return said product and get your money back.

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Originally Posted by isorokko

Erm...
Why would you be entitled to keep the snake for no charge at all if it wasn't gravid? In a way, you paid for a snake that is carrying eggs, if your snake for some reaons is not carrying the eggs promised, then you ended up just paying for the snake, which should entitle you to a discount but not a full refund + free snake. :weirdface

In essence you actually got a faulty product (although I don't think it is a good analogy to make since I don't really like comparing living creatures to manufactured things) which should mean that you can return said product and get your money back.

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I understand the faulty product thing, but like you said there living creatures, i emailed the guy to see what hell do if ends up not being gravid, and if he says return the snake for your money back, oh well the snakes here and my moneys gone.

Why I feel it would be good business (not i feel im entitled) to get my money back and keep the snake- I guess its because i believe in good business, and a good business man will add value if they mess up. So in this case, id think if he returned the money i paid, not including shipping, he jus made me happy, now if he says cool well ship the snake back to me 1) thats added stress 2) I aint a reptile certified shipper so id have to go out of my way to do that, and a angry customer is a bad customer. 3) Its not like shes sick, if i bought a sick snake then id understand the get your money back after you give the snake back, but if it was false advertisement, as far as a living creature is concerned if i was the one doing business id have no problem sending someone their money back and letting them keep the snake if it was something i assured. BUt i guess thats just me.

If you bought her from the "john guy" I am thinking of there is a chance she is not gravid, as he is just selling them for another company that has a terrible reputation.

That said, I still have a few gravids that have yet to lay there eggs, we got 8 eggs yesterday from a w.c gravid we had left from this season. While most have laid their eggs by now, there are always a few that got bred later and hold out, like the females we have left, and the fact that animals from Ghana lay eggs about 30-45 days later than animals from Benin. Almost all the gravids that are shipped out are shipped from Ghana even though they were collected in Benin and Togo as the Freight from Ghana is a lot cheaper than Benin, so there is a good chance she was just a animal that was shipped from Ghana that had follicles and has yet to lay.

All gravids are imported with large follicles, they are not actually gravid. That is the reason they can be imported, and shipped to a dealer then to you, and still produce good eggs as they ovulate in captivity. What you could have seen is her p.o.s that ran late as we have had some gravids do the same shed cycle, or she could have not ovulated and is not gravid.
Out of 127 gravids we got in this year we had 4 that did not ovulate so we help them back.

If she does not lay eggs within the next 30 days then you should contact "john" if he is still around, if not p.m us and I will tell you who he was selling them for, as he was just selling and did not have them in his care.

My policy for gravids is :
We guarantee 100% that they are gravid, if for some reason they do not lay eggs the animal has to be returned to us for a credit toward any other animal we have available, the other options are if a buyer has a animal that they do not want to send back then we offer them a partial credit usually 50% of the cost of the female, or offer a gravid the following season at cost and we cover the shipping.

Even the most generous sellers will only offer to refund the cost of the female and your shipping if you return the animal to them. If the animal is not returned then its hard to tell is she laid eggs or not, so that is a reason for the seller to expect to get the animal back too.

This is just our policy and experience with having and selling gravids, at the end of the day it all depends on the person you bought her from and what they think.

Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by jnjreptiles

Even the most generous sellers will only offer to refund the cost of the female and your shipping if you return the animal to them. If the animal is not returned then its hard to tell is she laid eggs or not, so that is a reason for the seller to expect to get the animal back too.

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didnt but from john, but im sure i bought from the guy who he is selling for, chris?? Yea and that was the wrong email didnt notice, i bought directly from chris, and i thought i sent him the same question, having trouble finding the email though, and i didnt realize how bad of a rep he had untill after, but she is a great snake. And that makes sense a good business will make sure they arent getting ripped off, she is very heavy and pretty hard in her mid section, hopefully time will prove shell be gravid.
Thank you

I figured it was Chris or John (ball python brothers) as Chris got the first shipment of gravids in on Dec. 23, 08.

The fact that she was imported in Dec. and I know his animals were collected in Benin as Ghana does not have gravids until later in the year (Generally mid. January) it sounds like she probable is not gravid. You said her belly is hard, the easiest way to tell a gravid is there skin is pulled down on there body from the eggs filling them out so much and you see the spine stick up on there backs when they are getting ready to lay.

If you have a pic of her we might be able to give you a better idea if she is gravid. Imports are a lot different looking when gravid than a animal bred in captivity as captive animals are usually fat so so not have the xtreme look that a thinner imported female has when packed with eggs.

I won’t comment on the animal itself just your guarantee.

A guarantee is only as good as the integrity of the seller is.

If you bought from John or Chris, (Ball Python Brothers or Rare Pythons) good luck to you to try to get anything back apparently you are aware of that already but for those that are not remember that a little inquiry goes a long way before buying

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...thons+brothers

No matter who you got it from... you should not expect to keep the snake and get your money back.
You would not BE a good customer if he has to return your money AND be out the snake also. Then you have a free snake, and he has nothing. You are no longer a customer, as you didn't give him any money.
If the snake is not gravid, you should return it, and recieve a refund. It sounds like you bought from a lousy seller, if it's the same as listed, so you might have wanted to do more research, or pay a little more to get one from a more reputable dealer. If the snake lays even one slug, then you have no claim.
You were not sold eggs, you were sold a pregnant snake. Only if it's not pregnant can you expect any refund, and only if you return the product(snake).

Ugh. Chris again. :rolleyes:

I did do a lot of google searches before buying from him, and nothing came up. I know a formore member here who bought 2 from him, and they layed a few weeks ago, and sorry but a pic is outta the question, as i no longer have my camera phone. But thank you all for your responses, and honestly he didnt seem like that bad of a guy when i was talking to him, we emailed back and forth quite a few times because i wantyed to make sure everything was gravy, and hopefully it will be. and if not, hey i got a nice snake right. better luck next year

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I did do a lot of google searches

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When you want to do some research the best thing is to go on the BOI and do a search there http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=13

You can also ask here in the inquiry forum.

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Originally Posted by azpythons

Why I feel it would be good business (not i feel im entitled) to get my money back and keep the snake- I guess its because i believe in good business, and a good business man will add value if they mess up.

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There is such a thing as being a good customer too. Trying to get something for nothing is not being a good customer. If this BP turns out to not be gravid, I wish you good luck getting any return on that guarantee, knowing who you got it from, but asking for anything that was not guaranteed is out of line.

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Originally Posted by azpythons

So in this case, id think if he returned the money i paid, not including shipping, he jus made me happy, now if he says cool well ship the snake back to me 1) thats added stress 2) I aint a reptile certified shipper so id have to go out of my way to do that, and a angry customer is a bad customer.

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You might have thought points 1 and 2 before you made this purchase. How is an angry customer a bad customer if the customer has no right to be angry?

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Originally Posted by azpythons

if i was the one doing business id have no problem sending someone their money back and letting them keep the snake if it was something i assured.

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But, that's not something you were assured by the guarantee you recieved.

If you're someone who will give away product for free, it would not be long before your business is broke. While no one likes to think about animals as "just" product, in business they are product for profit.
Making a good customer happy is one thing, going broke to satisfy someone over and above the guarentee is another.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

When you want to do some research the best thing is to go on the BOI and do a search there http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=13

You can also ask here in the inquiry forum.

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Rare Pythons eh? I had wished that liar had fallen out, no luck apparently. :rage:

I agree about being a good customer and all that, but a business would not go broke if run properly, and if they were to take those extra steps to ensure what their sending out is as sold. I guess if i bought a mojave, and got a pastel, id send the animal back and get my mojave, not keep both, so i guess that makes sense, kinda apples to oranges though. i paid that money so i could have the experience of a snake laying eggs, raising the babies, and everything that goes along with that, now its not like he could jus pull out another wc gravid right now and we could trade, but it is their fault, why should the customer be cheated out of what the customer paid for, now i guess it is jus me but if this happened to me, i guarantee id at least send the customer their money back for not getting what was originally purchased, and at least one of the little hatchlings, since that is what the customer paid for, the chance to raise a baby and try to adapt its mom well into captivity, but i guess its just me. The business wouldnt go out of business because they should not be making mistakes like that in the first place. if they can not properly tell if a wc is pregnant or not they have no business selling them, and should be out of business.

now that said i dont expect, or assume, or feel entitled to anything. I think if he did this for his customers he would have a better rep, but whatever. if he wants the snake back he aint getting it, and i dont have the money now so if i dont get it back, eh. if he never responds to me all i can do is make sure everyone knows he sucks.

But as jnj said theirs no way to tell if the animal laid or not unless the seller gets it back, so that makes a lot of sense. otherwise anyone could just be like yo my snake didnt lay eggs. thanks guys, ill let yall know if she ends up being gravid or not, and what happens.
thanks for all your help and advice.

It's not apples to oranges. You ordered a WC gravid, and you should either get a WC gravid, or get your money back. But you want to keep the snake AND get your money back. That's the sticking point for me. Yes, he should have not made a mistake, but that's a moot point, you don't even know if it IS a mistake yet, just that it's likely a mistake.
You'll still get to aclimate a WC adult female, which can be dicey, even if you don't get eggs. I hope it lays for you. I hope you have good luck in getting the female to feed, and getting any viable hatchlings to feed.
Rarepythons is not exactly a great person to buy from, if that's who you got it from. If it does turn out to not be gravid, then you should be sure to contact him to ask for a full refund, and if he refuses, post on the BOI.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

You'll still get to aclimate a WC adult female, which can be dicey, even if you don't get eggs. I hope it lays for you. I hope you have good luck in getting the female to feed, and getting any viable hatchlings to feed.
Rarepythons is not exactly a great person to buy from, if that's who you got it from. If it does turn out to not be gravid, then you should be sure to contact him to ask for a full refund, and if he refuses, post on the BOI.

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Everything she said, especially posting in his 1000 post thread at the BOI if Chris of Rare Pythons gives you the run around.

So chris just emailed me back, said what i expected him to. He said if she doesnt lay, she can be returned for a full refund, but to me that out of the question, so whatever. And honestly talking to him through email so far and at the time of purchase, he doesnt seem like to bad of a person. But i guess the stories speak for themselves...
but he did he has about 20 percent of his snakes, even some past day 42 that havent layed yet, so now its time for me to do the impossible...be patient for a little while longer.