BallpythonZone.com Split - Wild caught BP

I suggest getting rid of the wild caught animal if you want to be a serious breeder. The first thing that you should do is buy quality animals from reputable breeders. Selective breeding should be your focus. Don't just breed any two animals.

Hope this helps.

I dont think he needs to get rid of his snake to be taken seriously, jeez people. Lets really start to cut him some freakin slack.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I dont think he needs to get rid of his snake to be taken seriously, jeez people. Lets really start to cut him some freakin slack.

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Really... Just because it's wild caught doesn't mean it won't be a good animal...

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I suggest getting rid of the wild caught animal if you want to be a serious breeder. The first thing that you should do is buy quality animals from reputable breeders.

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Yeah, because the hobby is all about proving out already proven lines, which is why "serious" breeders never import new blood lines. Talk about your nonsensical advice.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I dont think he needs to get rid of his snake to be taken seriously, jeez people. Lets really start to cut him some freakin slack.

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I do! Personally, I will not deal with anyone that deals with wild caught ball pythons. Ditch the wild caught and buy quality captive bred animals. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I do! Personally, I will not deal with anyone that deals with wild caught ball pythons. Ditch the wild caught and buy quality captive bred animals. Just my opinion.

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That's a great attitude, ditch your WC Animals, hot damn I may want to tell some of my friends that..even though a few of them have Hypos, Pastels, and plenty of early-mid 2000 girls who were all WC and are all doing just fine. It's one thing not to agree with WCs and not participating yourself but don't tell people to ditch their animals, that's just wrong.

Regardless of what goes on in what you perceive as your little world, WC or not they're still a living animal.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

That's a great attitude, ditch your WC Animals, hot damn I may want to tell some of my friends that..even though a few of them have Hypos, Pastels, and plenty of early-mid 2000 girls who were all WC and are all doing just fine. It's one thing not to agree with WCs and not participating yourself but don't tell people to ditch their animals, that's just wrong.

Regardless of what goes on in what you perceive as your little world, WC or not they're still a living animal.

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is that wild caught should stay in the wild. We have enough ball pythons in the United States as it is. Tons of breeders are pretty much giving away their cb normal animals because there are a half-a-million ball pythons being imported into the United States every year. I will not support this or anyone else who does.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is that wild caught should stay in the wild. We have enough ball pythons in the United States as it is. Tons of breeders are pretty much giving away their cb normal animals because there are a half-a-million ball pythons being imported into the United States every year. I will not support this or anyone else who does.

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Are you serious?? Do you REALLY expect EVERYONE with wild caught BP's to ditch them all to be taken seriously? This is news to me! Apparently everyone I bought from isn't a "serious" breeder because they have some WC's in their collection. :rolleyes:

It is a living breathing animal that he cares for, you're really blowing smoke if you think that he HAS to get rid of his snake because it came from the wild.

One WC isnt going to set the tone of his reptuation in this hobby.

It would be like, "You have to get rid of all of your pet store bought animals, because they are captive hatched, to be taken seriously."

It's a fact of life, and purposely alienating a newbie because he bought a WC is a damn shame in my book. Good job Eddie for making him feel like crap. :gj:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

It's a fact of life, and purposely alienating a newbie because he bought a WC is a damn shame in my book. Good job Eddie for making him feel like crap. :gj:

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I was actually trying to help. IMO, the best way to start a breeding business is to start with quality animals.

I am sorry if I made you feel like crap. It was not my intention.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I was actually trying to help. IMO, the best way to start a breeding business is to start with quality animals.

I am sorry if I made you feel like crap. It was not my intention.

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Well, I'm not trying to make you feel like crap Eddie, it just really rang a chord with me.

What I was trying to get at is that we aren't dealing with Rare Pythons here that bought 500 gravid WC females. He's a kid that got one snake from what I consider a less than upstanding seller (that ships snakes in envelopes) he shouldn't be told to get rid of a pet because of where it came from.

If he understood and knew the issues with WC's before he got the snake, that's one thing, but I don't believe he did, so I am forgiving of that. Because many of the snakes we as a hobby love likely were captive hatched, imported and sold in a major pet store. I know I almost bought a CH baby from Petco, and there are thousands of people that have that really love their pet.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Well, I'm not trying to make you feel like crap Eddie, it just really rang a chord with me.

What I was trying to get at is that we aren't dealing with Rare Pythons here that bought 500 gravid WC females. He's a kid that got one snake from what I consider a less than upstanding seller (that ships snakes in envelopes) he shouldn't be told to get rid of a pet because of where it came from.

If he understood and knew the issues with WC's before he got the snake, that's one thing, but I don't believe he did, so I am forgiving of that. Because many of the snakes we as a hobby love likely were captive hatched, imported and sold in a major pet store. I know I almost bought a CH baby from Petco, and there are thousands of people that have that really love their pet.

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Thanks, and I understand where you are coming from. I was out of place suggesting that he should ditch his animal. I just do not agree with people selling wild caught animals. Anyone that buys from these sellers, are supporting them. The more buyers of wild caught animals, the more sellers there will be. It’s a catch twenty-two.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is that wild caught should stay in the wild. We have enough ball pythons in the United States as it is. Tons of breeders are pretty much giving away their cb normal animals because there are a half-a-million ball pythons being imported into the United States every year. I will not support this or anyone else who does.

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I'm not talking about your opinion on WCs, I don't care what you think about WCs it's that you're telling someone to ditch their animal that grinds my gears. :mad:

if the animal is in a loving and caring home it should stay there. its already been imported. its not like you can release it back to the wild.

WC need homes too, since sending them back to the wild is not an option 99% of the time.

Wh00h0069, if WC stayed in the wild then we wouldnt have CB/CH, breeders would have nothing. all of them from some point in time have WC blood in them wether its recent or not.

im really confused as to how people are against w.c.....think about it if you guys had your way a few years ago...no pastels...no spiders....no mojave...no nada. Now i know the argument "its wrong blah blah we have enough here blah blah...but honestly...think about it for one second...if i have some cake, and am eating it and your gonna sit there and try to grab a piece and then i said whoa whoa whoa, why do you want this cake. you cant have it, i just outlawed cake taking. now im the only one who gets to enjoy this cake. no, not fair. the new generation should have their shot at bringing in the next new morphs. like the toffee. if wild caughts were outlawed wed have no toffe ball, and im willing to bet if i had a freshly picked toffee ball and was willing to give it to any one of you who are soooo against w.c. id bet youd take it.

you guys should check out The Urban Python in Ontario . . . they have some of the craziest wild caught ball pythons i have seen and are currently tryin to prove them out . . . here is the link check these snakes out and then tell me you think its bad to be working with wild caughts http://www.theurbanpython.com/ball_p...ollection.html

http://www.theurbanpython.com/sandblast.html
http://www.theurbanpython.com/lemonfrost.html
every snake came from the wild at some point and some of the best and craziest morphs came from the wild caughts . . . even normals with amazing patterns, if you dont want a WC then dont buy one

most morphs come from wild caught animals

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Originally Posted by Python Guru

you guys should check out The Urban Python in Ontario . . . they have some of the craziest wild caught ball pythons i have seen and are currently tryin to prove them out . . . here is the link check these snakes out and then tell me you think its bad to be working with wild caughts http://www.theurbanpython.com/ball_p...ollection.html

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i want some lava.

It seems pointless to me to import a half-a-million ball pythons into the United States each year for possibly one or two new morphs each season, if that. Thoughts?

I have 2 females in my collection that I suspect were WC. One I got on a trade, the other I got at a local store because I couldn't bear to leave her there with those horrid burn scars all over her. I love them both, even if I never breed them. They can't be released back to Africa, but what I can do for them is give them the best care I'm able so that they live out their lives as comfortably as they can.

I'm okay with CH or WC, as long as it's done responsibly.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

It seems pointless to me to import a half-a-million ball pythons into the United States each year for possibly one or two new morphs each season, if that. Thoughts?

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the demand for ball pythons is very high, and all those snakes either get bred or purchased, if the demand is high then i don tthink its pointless, maybe you should sell ur snakes if it bothers you becuase at one point their parents or them were from the wild

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

It seems pointless to me to import a half-a-million ball pythons into the United States each year for possibly one or two new morphs each season, if that. Thoughts?

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is it any more pointless now than it was when the pastel who is responsible for you having a pastel was brought in, or the spider responsible for you having a spider, or the ghost that is responsible for you having ghosts, or the piebald responsible for you having a piebald??

Keep the WC.. All snakes need a loving home...

But seroisly, if he wants to be taken seriosuly, he shouldn't complain about his snake not eating when he JUST got it and didn't allow it to relax at all. He just started feeding and handeling wayyy before a week, then his exuse was "I was exited".

I suspect my male was WC, and he's a great breeder and one of my most healthy and nice snakes.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

It seems pointless to me to import a half-a-million ball pythons into the United States each year for possibly one or two new morphs each season, if that. Thoughts?

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its called supply and demand. if the market has a demand there will be a supply. if there was no demand there would be no supply. its pretty much that simple dude.

If breeders could supply the stores, the stores would buy cheap snakes from breeders.
New morphs come in from africa EVERY year, and more than one or two. There's a lot of new morphs that would never be seen (unless you're a high priced importer who would get around the laws) if you outlawed imports.
I agree... ditching a pet is a BAD way to state it. There's several CH females in my collection that I've shown off that I wouldn't trade or sell at all. I try to prefer CBB but I'm not for wholesale outlawing imports either.
There's nothing wrong with starting out small. I bet NERD's first ever ball python was a wild caught.

Uh. Ditch where? Backyard? It's 32 degrees here now. Hmmm. What would a little BP do in 30 degree weather? Live? Isn't that animal cruelty?

Another question. Do you think an animal kept in captivity for years would be able to adapt to wildlife?

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I was actually trying to help. IMO, the best way to start a breeding business is to start with quality animals.

I am sorry if I made you feel like crap. It was not my intention.

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im about to buy a proven breeder 04 pastel from blueapplepaste anyone ever done biz with him. Also i will not get rid of my wc bp. because even tho its wc its still a ball python one of the best snakes in the world

also if your saying ditch wc then they would have to ditch the toffee bp and idt anybody wants that. my 2cents

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Originally Posted by BallPythonZone

im about to buy a proven breeder 04 pastel from blueapplepaste anyone ever done biz with him.

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The appropriate place to ask a question like that is in the "inquiries and feedback" section, which is near the bottom of the forum index.

BallPythonZone, you have a keyboard in front of you, please use it. Chatspeak is so annoying.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Uh. Ditch where? Backyard? It's 32 degrees here now. Hmmm. What would a little BP do in 30 degree weather? Live? Isn't that animal cruelty?

Another question. Do you think an animal kept in captivity for years would be able to adapt to wildlife?

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:rofl: No one was saying that he should put his animal in his back yard. I was suggesting that he should give it, or sell it, to someone as a pet that could give it a good home. Hopefully someone that knows how to properly care for a wild caught animal. I also do not think that a wild caught animal is any less of an animal than a captive bred animal. I just do not agree with capturing wild ball pythons or importing captive hatched ball pythons. IMO, anyone that buys these animals is supporting the practices of collecting wild animals and captive hatched imports.

If you think about it, ball python breeding could actually be a lucrative business if importation was made illegal. As someone mentioned above, there is a large demand for ball pythons. The issue is that there is also a HUGE supply. There are tons of breeders in the United States that have to sell their captive bred animals for $10 each, or less, because there are so many imported animals coming into the United States each year. If importation stopped, the demand would still be there, but the supply would be much less. Therefore, captive bred animals would go up in price.

Anyway, I don't want to argue this topic any longer. I have my opinions, and other people have theirs. I respect opinions that differ from mine; although, I do not agree with them.

BTW, BallpythonZone, you should check out Fauna's BOI before purchasing anymore snakes. There are reviews on many people in the business on that site. Good luck on your future endeavors.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

It seems pointless to me to import a half-a-million ball pythons into the United States each year for possibly one or two new morphs each season, if that. Thoughts?

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Eddie I do understand your concerns and in some ways agree with them. I'm not against importation from the wild though because it is my understanding that the wild population of ball pythons is in quite good shape at present. As long as that situation exists, then a controlled sale from the wild isn't an issue for me.

What is an issue for me is how we treat these snakes coming in from the wild. I do think we need some sort of control on these large importers who treat these animals as a commodity and could care less how many die. This would include the large pet stores who both receive in and sell off unstarted, non-feeding, often sick fresh from Africa hatchlings. If we are to take a living thing from it's natural place in the wild, I believe it should be done responsibly, ethically and with a reasonable expectation that the animal deserves to survive and thrive in captivity.

I also see many buyers rushing off to grab up that "great deal" then complaining later they got a fresh import. Well if you look beyond your wallet you might see that nobody sells a ready to breed adult female BP for next to nothing. Our greed and need to find shortcuts to egg production is part of the problems that occur with the sale of WC adults (gravid or not).

I do have issues with importers bringing in gravid females simply to get eggs from them without any real intent to support the female properly. I've seen the results and rescued one of those females (possibly two but we cannot prove the other was a gravid import). Danu was a mess but is now okay. For me and Mike, there is no honor in treating any female creature like a disposable egg making machine. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I do! Personally, I will not deal with anyone that deals with wild caught ball pythons. Ditch the wild caught and buy quality captive bred animals. Just my opinion.

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So you wouldnt deal with someone who even has LTC in their collection? they ARE afterall. Wild caught!

Thats pretty amusing. Good luck following through on that one.

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Originally Posted by mooingtricycle

So you wouldnt deal with someone who even has LTC in their collection? they ARE afterall. Wild caught!

Thats pretty amusing. Good luck following through on that one.

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Guess he can't deal with me then LOL. I've at least two confirmed WC adult females in our collection (Saoirse and Danu). They are two of the snakes I'm absolutely the most proud of. I've never hidden their history and will be extremely proud when they produce their first clutches with me and Mike. They would be techinically LTC's now but their beginnings were as adults in the wild.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Guess he can't deal with me then LOL. I've at least two confirmed WC adult females in our collection (Saoirse and Danu). They are two of the snakes I'm absolutely the most proud of. I've never hidden their history and will be extremely proud when they produce their first clutches with me and Mike. They would be techinically LTC's now but their beginnings were as adults in the wild.

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Me as well. I have one definite LTC female in my collection. She was given to me as such, and she should be producing her first clutch with me this year! I cant wait! :gj: Shes been a great snake!

I also have a wild caught sunbeam snake here too. Since there are very very very few captive breedings anywhere in the USA, i hope one day he will help me produce some CB stock for the future! :gj:

Wild caughts arent bad animals.... They ( and their determined keepers) are the reason we have the stock we do in captivity today. Im for Responsible importation, of course. But even many of the species that we keep in captivity today are the result of smuggling, believe it or not. ( at least, so im told by friends! :) )

I'm going to have macaroni and cheese for breakfast!! :banana:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is that wild caught should stay in the wild. We have enough ball pythons in the United States as it is. Tons of breeders are pretty much giving away their cb normal animals because there are a half-a-million ball pythons being imported into the United States every year. I will not support this or anyone else who does.

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Then who do you buy from? Since EVERY ball python was wild caught that started our lovely collections we now have ;).Matter of fact EVERY pet we now have come from wild ancestors :P.

I look at it this way. Either they are brought over here where they actually have a chance to survive, OR they're going to stay over there where they will most likely be let to lay their eggs then get killed/skinned/eaten.

What would you rather have done to them? I'd rather them have a fighting chance and get healthy(yes, some never acclimate and die, but you know what, even CBB babies can be that way).

Give me a CH baby ball any day over a CBB baby. They are generally much more robust.

Just another point to add to what Becky wrote. Many people forget that the collection (within limitations that are in place) of wild Ball Pythons is a commodity for the countries in Africa where these snakes are present. There are meny people there that making a living and feed there families by collecting these animals. As many have previously stated, the population in the wild hasn't suffered from the collecting, at least according to the last surveys that were conducted.

If importation to the US was banned, and even if a ban was placed into the other large importing countries (i.e. European countries), the Ball Pythons would still get collected and exported. There is a large market for Ball Pythons in Eastern and South Eastern Asia for Ball Pythons. These countries are using the hides for numerous things, and also eat the meat.

Lastly, as for the discussion about Morphs, to the best of my knowledge, I am unaware of any Ball Python mutation that popped up out of breeding to Normals together. It has happened in other species (especially Corn Snakes) that new mutations were created by the luck of the breeder in putting two Heterozygous animals together without knowing. With that said, every Ball Python base mutation to date has come from the wild.

Just some food for thought,

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Originally Posted by Python Guru

the demand for ball pythons is very high, and all those snakes either get bred or purchased, if the demand is high then i don tthink its pointless, maybe you should sell ur snakes if it bothers you becuase at one point their parents or them were from the wild

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Don't you understand that for every animal that get sell in the pet store industry, there is a lot of them that die in the transport ?

I do understand that it's a work and a way for some people in africa to put food on the table. But that's another problem and it's call globalisation of the market. The world need to find a new way so everyone can live nicely. It's like saying, we should keep the manufactures open in africa, asia etc... where kids works cause it's the only way the family will be able to put food on the table.

The breeders are able to support the market (pet store etc...) with normals. At least in the BP sector. The problem is the suppliers to the pet store. The store have to deal with them and only them, and it's still cheaper to import millions of BP every year than buy from breeders. Also the fact that you have to deal with only one company (or person) to import, instead of a hundred of breeders.

It's cost less to import than to buy from breeders. That's the only reason they still import.

There is probably not much left morph still available in the wild. Not worth it IMO. But the probably that is only 1 is enough for people to buy them. It's like a lotery ticket, probability you win is low, but still a lot of people take it.

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Originally Posted by Watever

Don't you understand that for every animal that get sell in the pet store industry, there is a lot of them that die in the transport ?

I do understand that it's a work and a way for some people in africa to put food on the table. But that's another problem and it's call globalisation of the market. The world need to find a new way so everyone can live nicely. It's like saying, we should keep the manufactures open in africa, asia etc... where kids works cause it's the only way the family will be able to put food on the table.

The breeders are able to support the market (pet store etc...) with normals. At least in the BP sector. The problem is the suppliers to the pet store. The store have to deal with them and only them, and it's still cheaper to import millions of BP every year than buy from breeders. Also the fact that you have to deal with only one company (or person) to import, instead of a hundred of breeders.

It's cost less to import than to buy from breeders. That's the only reason they still import.

There is probably not much left morph still available in the wild. Not worth it IMO. But the probably that is only 1 is enough for people to buy them. It's like a lotery ticket, probability you win is low, but still a lot of people take it.

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Thanks, that is my exact thoughts on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I suggest getting rid of the wild caught animal if you want to be a serious breeder. The first thing that you should do is buy quality animals from reputable breeders. Selective breeding should be your focus. Don't just breed any two animals.

Hope this helps.

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I would rather have no more wild ball pythons being caught for the pet trade, but it is not going to stop. Major breeders are looking for new morphs not just more combos. If some new morph is found it will make its way into the pet trade. Even if a breeder is reputable does not mean that they don't have wild caught snakes.

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Originally Posted by Watever

There is probably not much left morph still available in the wild. Not worth it IMO.

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We've only seen what we've seen - we have no idea what kind of genetic information is floating around out there. Hell, as far as I'm aware, there has yet to even be an attempt to map the BP genome thus far.

That said, your rationalization is based on nothing more than supposition, and as such is about as valid as if you had openly stated "there probably isn't much we haven't discovered in space, so traveling there isn't worth it IMO", when we've yet to even scrape the surface of what's really out there

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

Even if a breeder is reputable does not mean that they don't have wild caught snakes.

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I would be willing to bet there aren't very many reputable breeders of any significance out there that have no WC or CH animals in their collections.

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

I would be willing to bet there aren't very many reputable breeders of any significance out there that have no WC or CH animals in their collections.

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Any breeder that has an original morph has WC. Like Kevin McCurley's spider, Brian's Pinstripe, RDR's Platinum etc...

While I'm not all for the numbers that are being imported for the pet trade, it's better than being skinned or eaten.

I also don't agree with the idea of tossing an animal to the side just because a human act has caused it to be in captivity. It's a living, breathing creature, just like Captive Borns. While I don't keep them, and if I did, I wouldn't breed them.

I just don't see the logic in getting rid of an animal simply because it's WC. Should you have an extended quarantine procedure with a WC animal? Yes! Should the animal be taken in to a veterinarian for a full check up? Yes! Then again, I do this with all of my animals.

I've rescued and fostered probably a half dozen WC. All animals took effort and money to acclimate them to captivity, but it was worth it. They aren't different than any other Ball Python, they deserve the same chance the CB animals have. They've had a tough life, the last thing they need is to be tossed from home to home.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Michelle.C

While I'm not all for the numbers that are being imported for the pet trade, it's better than being skinned or eaten.

I also don't agree with the idea of tossing an animal to the side just because a human act has caused it to be in captivity. It's a living, breathing creature, just like Captive Borns. While I don't keep them, and if I did, I wouldn't breed them.

I just don't see the logic in getting rid of an animal simply because it's WC. Should you have an extended quarantine procedure with a WC animal? Yes! Should the animal be taken in to a veterinarian for a full check up? Yes! Then again, I do this with all of my animals.

I've rescued and fostered probably a half dozen WC. All animals took effort and money to acclimate them to captivity, but it was worth it. They aren't different than any other Ball Python, they deserve the same chance the CB animals have. They've had a tough life, the last thing they need is to be tossed from home to home.

Just my opinion.

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I completely agree with you.

why dont they just stop catching normal BP's and strictly look for morphs? then u aernt messing stuff up in the wild as bad.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

Any breeder that has an original morph has WC. Like Kevin McCurley's spider, Brian's Pinstripe, RDR's Platinum etc...

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Not only that, but I know quite a few breeders who make regular trips to Africa to check out the wares available on the ground. This entire line of conversation seems silly and - I hate to use this term negatively, but - American in nature (in the spoiled-rotten, first-world citizen who has never experienced life elsewhere sense).

While the outcry itself is against the importation of additional animals, it almost seems like the actual argument is rooted in a misconception that captive bred animals are inherently more valuable because of known lineage though, when the truth of the matter is, the extremely valuable animals are those that enter the market with genetic traits that haven't been seen.

I would take that another step further though, and point out that an established CB market for any morph lowers the overall value of the genetic trait and depresses prices. Simply put, without bringing new blood into the industry, it would quickly collapsing given the year over year increases in numbers of both breeders and available animals.

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Originally Posted by First_Phantom

why dont they just stop catching normal BP's and strictly look for morphs? then u aernt messing stuff up in the wild as bad.

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There are a number of problems with that idea, the most obvious of which is the fact that recessive morphs (which are the jackpot finds) aren't visually distinct in heterozygous pairings.

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Originally Posted by Michelle.C

While I don't keep them, and if I did, I wouldn't breed them.

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Although I agree with most of which you said bout taking care of WCs I don't understand this statement. You make it sound as if they're defective animals like people not breeding caramels because of kinking or spiders because of wobbling. If I had a couple of adult WC females who ate well and were of acceptable breeding size I wouldn't hesitate to pair them up with one of my CB morph males.