JCP not eating; Part II

Hey all,

I started a thread a few months ago about my JCP that stopped eating. I concluded with the help of many of you that the reason is most likely that he's an adult male in breeding mode.

I started cooling him down at night only; same daytime temps as usual.

As of the 21st of February, I gave him regular daytime heat at night as well.

February 22 was feeding day for my balls, and I thought "What the hell, might as well offer him a small rat."

He seemed very interested in this rat, but wouldn't take it. After I washed the rat with soap and warm water, I rubbed a mouse all over the rat and he took the rat without hesitation. This of course was good news. I thawed another (larger) rat in case he was still hungry, but he didn't seem interested at all.

I offered him more mouse scented small rats Feb. 27 and March 6. He refused them both, although he did seem slightly interested.

What do you guys think is going on? Should I continue to offer him rats? When should I try feeding him a mouse and then placing a small rat inside his mouth (this method has worked before)?

Thanks again guys,

Dutch, I would not worry about it. Stick with rats, there is no reason why he shouldn't take them when he's hungry. AC feeds adults rats and mice to mix up their diet. After a strike though, I would only do rats for a few weeks. If you get desperate try a live small rat (watching closely, I'm sure you know that). They seem to prefer live much better but frozen is always safer. Just my 0.02 cents.

I was talking to a guy at a show who said they will starve themselves if they don't want to take rats.

This is the stupidest thing ever though, because these animals cannot afford to be so picky in the wild.

Two more questions though:

1) Should I scent the rats with mice? I mean, he doesn't seem interested in the rats whatsoever.
2) When should I try a live small rat?

Thanks David.

I wouldn't think that they will starve themselves to death. If they get hungry they will eat. When was the last feeding? I don't think scenting would be necessary.

The last time he actually took a (scented) rat was Feb. 22. I know this isn't long ago, but it was worrying/bothering me that he hasn't taken one again.

He might still be getting out of breeding mode...?

Probably. I would keep the temps pretty high for a bit but gradually do it. leave you RHP on tonight, but make the cage around 5 to 8 degrees warmer than you would if it was completely off. Gradually gaining a few degrees each night until you're in the low-mid 70s

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Originally Posted by DavidG

Probably. I would keep the temps pretty high for a bit but gradually do it. leave you RHP on tonight, but make the cage around 5 to 8 degrees warmer than you would if it was completely off. Gradually gaining a few degrees each night until you're in the low-mid 70s

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I've already gotten the cage back to 24/7 heat. The daytime temps are the exact same as night time temps.

Let him rest a few more weeks (he'll be fine, trust me) and then try. It stresses them out to constantly offer food. On a bit of a personal note, I drop night time temps a few degrees just to help simulate nature and the sun setting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DavidG

Let him rest a few more weeks (he'll be fine, trust me) and then try. It stresses them out to constantly offer food. On a bit of a personal note, I drop night time temps a few degrees just to help simulate nature and the sun setting.

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Alright.

I'll try dropping the temps at night a little bit as well.

Also, when I thaw rodents in my room, he becomes extremely active and moves around the cage a lot, and when I open his door he comes out pretty fast...

I will say that Jungles WILL starve themselves if they are only offered something they will not eat. I kept many jungles about 10-15 years ago and only 2 would eat rats. I tried every trick in the book and they just prefer mice. If you can get yours to eat scented rats, I would suggest you keep doing that. Otherwise, be prepared to feed only mice. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I will say that Jungles WILL starve themselves if they are only offered something they will not eat. I kept many jungles about 10-15 years ago and only 2 would eat rats. I tried every trick in the book and they just prefer mice. If you can get yours to eat scented rats, I would suggest you keep doing that. Otherwise, be prepared to feed only mice. Good luck.

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Brandon, did you ever try live rats and did they take them?

How many mice did you feed and how often would you feed to adult males?

Brandon, this is an established carpet that has been eating rats for quite some time. I believe Matt knows how old he is, but I can not recall off the top of my head.


A baby jungle stuck on mice will usually not go to rats unless you scent or do other nasty tricks like using mouse blood, brains, ect.

He's a CBB '04 male that had a mixed diet of rats and mice.

This is what is surprising me, that he won't take rats in my care.

I'll give you a quick sample of the feeding records I got from the previous keeper:

01-27-08: ate 1 sm rat
02-02-08: refused to eat
02-10-08: ate 1 med rat & 3 mice - heated
02-17-08: refused to eat
03-02-08: 1 mouse 1 rat (heated)
03-18-08: live hopper mouse 2
03-19-08: f/t rat 2
04-12-08 f/t rat
05-21-08: 3 small rats

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Brandon, did you ever try live rats and did they take them?

How many mice did you feed and how often would you feed to adult males?

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I tried everything....live, frozen thawed, fresh killed. If they are not started early on rats, they usually will not accept them as they grow.

As for feeding mice, it depends on the animal. Males could probably be fed 3-6 mice every other week depending on their size. I had a couple of very large females that would go through 10 jumbo mice a week. That is what sucks about mouse feeding carpets, and it's one reason I sold my carpets to work with more chondros. Plus, chondros are not a flighty or aggressive.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I tried everything....live, frozen thawed, fresh killed. If they are not started early on rats, they usually will not accept them as they grow.

As for feeding mice, it depends on the animal. Males could probably be fed 3-6 mice every other week depending on their size. I had a couple of very large females that would go through 10 jumbo mice a week. That is what sucks about mouse feeding carpets, and it's one reason I sold my carpets to work with more chondros. Plus, chondros are not a flighty or aggressive.

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Since I don't have a small collection (yet) I'm not selling this guy... and he's not aggressive, but sometimes a little flighty when he doesn't want to come out of his cage. I got a bonus point there :)

Dutch, I'm a little concerned about your feeding. Instead of seeing if he'll gorge himself, let him take one small and then leave it to the next week so he will be more hungry. I try to feed one food item, and if you under feed it's okay because it will just make him more likely to hit a medium the next week (or 2 depending on your feeding.)

Trust me Dutch, I see no reason why this guy will not go back to rats. He knows they are food and not an enemy. When I offer rats my carpets just strike them repetitively as though it was hurting them. If he's seeming interested at all just stick with it.

David, that feeding chart I posted was not mine. It was the previous keeper's feeding records.

So far I've only offered him small rats once a week, never more.

I'll continue doing this, every week or every other week.

What are you feeding the balls? I thaw one mouse for mine and get the ones I'm not sure will eat first then move onto the ones that eat every week. If you're feeding you balls rats then just thaw one for for them and try him first. Be sure to keep us updated. A big male like yours can strike for months so if he hasn't taken a rat on his own in 4 or 5 more weeks we'll change tactics. Hopefully Brandon agrees with this.

I couldn't agree more with him about mice, except you're guy isn't a baby. I have the jag and the other carpet you saw, they only eat mice. It's all they every will, I'm pretty sure of it.

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Originally Posted by DavidG

What are you feeding the balls? I thaw one mouse for mine and get the ones I'm not sure will eat first then move onto the ones that eat every week. If you're feeding you balls rats then just thaw one for for them and try him first. Be sure to keep us updated. A big male like yours can strike for months so if he hasn't taken a rat on his own in 4 or 5 more weeks we'll change tactics. Hopefully Brandon agrees with this.

I couldn't agree more with him about mice, except you're guy isn't a baby. I have the jag and the other carpet you saw, they only eat mice. It's all they every will, I'm pretty sure of it.

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That's exactly what I do. I thaw at least one rat and one mouse first. The rat is intended for my normal male BP, which is first offered to my JCP. If he seems really interested, I use the mouse to scent the rat. This is what happened the first time and he took it.

He usually seems a little interested, so I keep scenting the rats.

When he doesn't take the rat, I just give it to my Ball and he annihilates it.

I'll definitely keep you guys updated, I'll offer him a rat every weekend.

Thanks again,

If it doesn't work in a few weeks skip a week or two. Make him think he won't get fed it he won't eat. Might up his prey drive. With a big carpet that's on rats already you could probably do a mouse then a rat while he's in hunt mode. That's a little further down the line than something I'd be trying at the moment.

just to add my two cents... there are some jungles that will go for mice and even the most experienced keepers can't get them to go back to rats.
if it's taking scented rats, then consider that a victory... because feeding a big adult jcp mice for the next 20 years will suck.

after reading all the posts, my only question is... do you ever leave the rat in over night? i have a couple carpets that won't always eat when offered but when i leave it in the cage all night, it's gone in the morning. basically, just because it doesn't strike, constrict, and eat when offered, doesn't mean it won't eat at all.

I certainly wish you luck in this. In all my experience with Jungles, I've never been able to switch one from mice to rats. I've had them strike but never hang on and coil. You can try Colin's advice as well, but it too never worked for me.

I have a female West Papuan now that will strike at rats, but will only eat mice. I've tried everything. In my opinion, once they are on mice, it is next to impossible to get them to take rats. I'm not saying it can't be done, but expect a very tough challenge. The key is to start them very young and never switch back. Starving them never did the trick for me.....they would rather die. Scenting seems to be working for you, so it's a start.

Good luck and let us know the results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colin Vestrand

just to add my two cents... there are some jungles that will go for mice and even the most experienced keepers can't get them to go back to rats.
if it's taking scented rats, then consider that a victory... because feeding a big adult jcp mice for the next 20 years will suck.

after reading all the posts, my only question is... do you ever leave the rat in over night? i have a couple carpets that won't always eat when offered but when i leave it in the cage all night, it's gone in the morning. basically, just because it doesn't strike, constrict, and eat when offered, doesn't mean it won't eat at all.

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Yes, I've done this many a time. No luck yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I certainly wish you luck in this. In all my experience with Jungles, I've never been able to switch one from mice to rats. I've had them strike but never hang on and coil. You can try Colin's advice as well, but it too never worked for me.

I have a female West Papuan now that will strike at rats, but will only eat mice. I've tried everything. In my opinion, once they are on mice, it is next to impossible to get them to take rats. I'm not saying it can't be done, but expect a very tough challenge. The key is to start them very young and never switch back. Starving them never did the trick for me.....they would rather die. Scenting seems to be working for you, so it's a start.

Good luck and let us know the results.

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Brandon, this carpet was not started out on rats. Well, I'm not sure about that, but he's had a varied diet of mice and rats with the previous keeper.

This leads me to believe (with David's help) that I can get him back on rats because he has been feeding on them in the past.

[QUOTE=DutchHerp;1004006]
Brandon, this carpet was not started out on rats. Well, I'm not sure about that, but he's had a varied diet of mice and rats with the previous keeper.
QUOTE]

Matthijs, this leads me to believe the person that sold you the snake is pulling your leg. Anything I've ever heard of jungles being fed rats and switched to mice has been they never go back to feeding on rats. I know not every animal is the same, but it seems like a steady trend to me. Has he ever fed on rats for you, other than the scented rat?

Yes Brandon he took rats when I got him, but never had a great feeding response. He always gave me the impression like "Meh, I'll just eat it, whatever." After I fed him those two mice (because according to the guy's feeding chart it was OK) he never took one again voluntarily.

Also, I have issues trusting everyone. He claims to have been breeding snakes for over 20 years, and he's always helped me answer my questions. I also asked for a certificate that he was CBB (I'm moving to Europe next year) and he sent it right away.

Just seems sort of strange that he took rats before (in my care, and thus knows they are food items) but now won't take them again.

Like I said, I'll keep you guys updated weekly, whenever I attempt to feed.

Alright fellas,

It's a week later and I've offered him a small rat. He seemed really interested at first but he just loses interest after a while.

I'm about to wash the rat thoroughly to get most of the scent off. Then I'm rubbing a mouse all over it just to see if he'll take it then (this worked once before).

If he won't take it, I'll try the exact same thing again.

When should I start giving him mice? Before I'm giving him just mice, I want to try to place the small rat in his mouth when swallowing one mouse.

Thanks,

Update!

I didn't wash the rat, and I just started scenting the rat with the mouse I had... he seemed really interested, and eventually he just opened his mouth and started eating it, after I just kept gently touching his mouth with the rat.

I'm really happy!!

Any advice on what to do next week?

My plan is still the same: thaw a rat with mouse, first try the rat, then scent.

:banana:

Looks like he has realized the food poses no threat. My Bredli makes me gently rub his sides and he will just open his mouth around the head and eat. At the shop I help at all the corns and hognose make you hold it on their mouth and they just open.

Sorry for this many posts...

but he took 2 more! Best news is, they were both unscented. It took a few minutes, but eventually he'd just open his mouth!

I think 3 is enough for one day :)

I'll try again next week.

Should I go for a large rat?

One prey item is usually not a bad thing. :)

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Originally Posted by DavidG

One prey item is usually not a bad thing. :)

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I agree, as long as they are feeding regularly. If an animal is on a continued fast and suddenly begins feeding, I'll offer multiple prey items. I have a few male chondros that feed about 10-12 times per year. Each feeding I will give as much as I think they can handle. They are usually good for another month or two. Just a male being a male.

Matthijs, just keep doing what works. No need to change things if he's eating. I wonder how he would react to a mouse though.....but don't try. lol. Keep him on his rats.

Also feeding to frequently or to much to often will drive an animal to go off feeding.

It's a week later...

and he took a LARGE rat!

Took a little bit of scenting only, and he just started eating it.

:banana:

Try an unscented in a week or two (not sure of your feed schedule, I did every 2 on adults) If he doesn't take you can try and scent it for him.

Congrats BTW. :gj:

David,

I offered him another small rat, and he took it unscented. I don't want to over feed so I won't do that again.

You think I should feed every two weeks? I'm pretty sure he'll take unscented, because I didn't even wash the rat and only rubbed the mouse a little bit.

He is quite a big guy. Probably nothing wrong with feeding once a week, but this species tends to get obese quickly so watch his diet. You are feeding a bit often to get him on this rat thing. If he ate a large feeding a small right after is a bit much. Too late for that now though, so on with the future! It's really you're call with every 2 weeks or just 7 days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DavidG

He is quite a big guy. Probably nothing wrong with feeding once a week, but this species tends to get obese quickly so watch his diet. You are feeding a bit often to get him on this rat thing. If he ate a large feeding a small right after is a bit much. Too late for that now though, so on with the future! It's really you're call with every 2 weeks or just 7 days.

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Alright thanks a lot brother.

I think I'll try again next weekend just to reassure myself that he is eating again.

Thing is, when I heat up rodents with a hair dryer in my room for other snakes, he starts getting extremely active. The previous keeper's feeding records show roughly ever 14 days. I think I'll do that.

Thanks a bunch David.