Bp Enclosure question.

Hello, I'm new to these forums and i signed up due to my current interest (and love!) of ball pythons. So i what i wanted to know is, what is the ideal enclosure size for two 6 month old bp's? I currently have a 6 month old male named Adam, and i plan on getting my second bp when i get my larger setup (i currently have a 10gal). I was thinking of getting a 100 gallon aquarium for both of the bp's. I don't think that is too excessive for them, especially when they get older and bigger. And also i wanted to know about quarantining the second, if i get them only several weeks from each other and from the same petstore should i still quarantine her, and for how long? Thanks in advance:)

10 gal is perfect for a 6 months old BP, so you can stick with that for a long time.

100 gal is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too huge, and it moreover, it's WAAAAAAAAAAAY too unnecessary. BPs can live happily in 30gal enclosures.

BPs can be kept together, but you shouldn't.
You can keep that one in another tank, also a 10gal if you want.

As for quarantining, I highly recommend keeping them apart for a few months, in different rooms.

Im not really sure about the size, but will you keep them together??? I am going to get a nother bp and im going to keep both of mine together so some people dont like it but i dont see a problem with it as long as there isnt a big size difference. QUARANTINE is necessary. Im going to be having my second one quarantined for about 8 weeks so anywhere from 2 to 3 months would be good. Good luck, by the way what kind do you have and what kind are you getting, i wouldnt get a bp from a petstore unless you know where its coming from i would get one from a breeder, where are you located, most of the time you can find a local breeder that would sell you a normal for $50 if thats the kind your getting.

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Originally Posted by DaPyro

Hello, I'm new to these forums and i signed up due to my current interest (and love!) of ball pythons. So i what i wanted to know is, what is the ideal enclosure size for two 6 month old bp's? I currently have a 6 month old male named Adam, and i plan on getting my second bp when i get my larger setup (i currently have a 10gal). I was thinking of getting a 100 gallon aquarium for both of the bp's. I don't think that is too excessive for them, especially when they get older and bigger. And also i wanted to know about quarantining the second, if i get them only several weeks from each other and from the same petstore should i still quarantine her, and for how long? Thanks in advance:)

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Hey there, Welcome. Personally i would not get a 100 gallon tank, im thinking that is Way to big, nor would i put them together. A 10 gallon tank should be plenty for the new guy, and keep the one you have also in a ten gallon until his size increases, then move on to slightly larger tank/tub. From what i have learned they like a closer more secure area rather than a larger area, plus it would be a little more difficult to keep temp/humidity up in that big of a tank. Have you thought about building or buying a rack? This would be a great investment for having a numerous BP's.

As for quarantining i would Deff do it, no matter what. For information check out this page http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=74329

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Originally Posted by tjones

Im not really sure about the size, but will you keep them together??? I am going to get a nother bp and im going to keep both of mine together so some people dont like it but i dont see a problem with it as long as there isnt a big size difference. QUARANTINE is necessary. Im going to be having my second one quarantined for about 8 weeks so anywhere from 2 to 3 months would be good. Good luck, by the way what kind do you have and what kind are you getting, i wouldnt get a bp from a petstore unless you know where its coming from i would get one from a breeder, where are you located, most of the time you can find a local breeder that would sell you a normal for $50 if thats the kind your getting.

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If by another BP you mean your second snake, what experience do you base this on?

Really? I thought of getting a 75gal for both of them, also i can't keep them apart other than for quarantining, i currently live in a small apartment so the two setups take a lot of room , so i insist on housing them together(i'm pretty persistent, sorry) So in the case of housing them both together, what would be a good size tank at adult growth?

A 10 gallon is fine until they are about a year old (in my opinion). A 20 gallon long is the biggest you will ever need for a BP unless you have a huuuuge female. 100 gallons is way too big for any BP.

I HIGHLY recommend you do not house the snakes together. There are many risks associated with communal housing including:
1. Competing for dominance. This looks like they are cuddling, but remember, ball pythons are not humans and they don't cuddle.
2. Stress. Being housed with another snake can be very stressful because ball pythons are solitary animals.
3. Cannibalism. While this doesn't happen often, there is always the risk.
4. Unwanted breeding. If your animals are not properly sexed, you could have a male and a female and they could start breeding. If the female is too young, she could die from the breeding process. If you do get eggs, you need to be prepared to incubate them.
5. Whose poop, Whose shed. When more than one ball python is in an enclosure, you can never tell who's shed, poop, or urates is whose.
6. If one gets sick the other gets sick. Double vet bills. This is not fun.

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Originally Posted by DaPyro

Really? I thought of getting a 75gal for both of them, also i can't keep them apart other than for quarantining, i currently live in a small apartment so the two setups take a lot of room , so i insist on housing them together(i'm pretty persistent, sorry) So in the case of housing them both together, what would be a good size tank at adult growth?

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I don't mean to upset you, but what is more important, your need to house them together or their comfort/quality of life?

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Originally Posted by DaPyro

Really? I thought of getting a 75gal for both of them, also i can't keep them apart other than for quarantining, i currently live in a small apartment so the two setups take a lot of room , so i insist on housing them together(i'm pretty persistent, sorry) So in the case of housing them both together, what would be a good size tank at adult growth?

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Two setups is not a lot of room.
An adult ball python would never EVER go in anything over a 40 gallon. I usually suggest 20 gallons for adults. Ball pythons do not like a lot of space, it stresses them out and keeping more than one snake in the same enclosure is dangerous and also very stressful and difficult on the snake.
I'm going on 14 snakes, and they are all kept in a single bedroom. I also have a very large turtle cage and 2 lizard setups.

I do not advise ever keeping ball pythons together except for breeding which is a temporary (couple days) thing. If one snake gets sick, gets mites, or has parasites, they both automatically get sick. With an RI, that means two vet bills and double the prescription costs. You run the risk of early breeding with a m/f and fighting with a m/m. Ball pythons have occasionally been known to eat their room-mates as well. Feeding two snakes in the same enclosure is difficult, and it's just generally a bad idea.
2 20 gallon enclosures for the adult stage. 2 10 gallon enclosures for the juvenile stage. That's all you need. 2 20 gallons take up a whole lot less space than any 75 gallon or 100 gallon. Not to mention, any tank that size would only be meant for fish, so it would probably have the floorspace of a 40g breeder at most and you would just be wasting money.

If your super worried about space, and don't care how it looks.. get yourself some tubs. They stack and take up very little space and are 10x more comfortable for the animals.

Good luck. :]

i think this is my first post, but if your able to purchase a 75-100 gallon you can make a divider and seperate the tank into 2 that should be more then enough for each . one on one side and one on the other, or buy 2 20-30 gallon tanks and ge ta shelving unit or something of the sort. i personally am building a cage, 48x18x18 and am adding a divider that is removable for when and if i decide to ever breed. but thats just my 2 cents. good luck none the less :)

-Jon

Yeah, i guess your right, i'd rather keep them alive and happy as long as possible, and yes i do plan on breeding one day though not soon, and the petstore where i got my Bp and WILL get my second Bp is a friend of my brother's and me, and they breed there own snakes, so i trust there quality of life. Thanks for all your help:gj:

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Originally Posted by DaPyro

Yeah, i guess your right, i'd rather keep them alive and happy as long as possible, and yes i do plan on breeding one day though not soon, and the petstore where i got my Bp and WILL get my second Bp is a friend of my brother's and me, and they breed there own snakes, so i trust there quality of life. Thanks for all your help:gj:

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If space is an issue, have you considered a tub setup? They take up almost no room at all, are inexpensive, and allow you to house your snakes separately.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

If space is an issue, have you considered a tub setup? They take up almost no room at all, are inexpensive, and allow you to house your snakes separately.

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I might look into that one day.

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Originally Posted by DaPyro

Yeah, i guess your right, i'd rather keep them alive and happy as long as possible, and yes i do plan on breeding one day though not soon, and the petstore where i got my Bp and WILL get my second Bp is a friend of my brother's and me, and they breed there own snakes, so i trust there quality of life. Thanks for all your help:gj:

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Yes, yes, like Kaorte said, tubs are fantastic.

They don't look as nice, but if you want to start collecting, it's very easy to keep a lot of snakes in a small amount of space. You could even build your own snake rack, that's similar to a shelf for the tubs. :]

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I don't mean to upset you, but what is more important, your need to house them together or their comfort/quality of life?

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First off i know plenty of people that keep there snakes together, and its my choice for doing this, secondly, just because they are kept in the same cage doesnt mean that their going to be uncomfortable or have a bad life, if you have a big enough enclosure so that they both have enough room to move I dont see why having two ball pythons together is a bad thing!!!

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

If space is an issue, have you considered a tub setup? They take up almost no room at all, are inexpensive, and allow you to house your snakes separately.

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The problem with tubs however (unless you have a heated room or special heating; i.e., one large heat source on the cool side [set at like 80*] and a smaller on on the hot side [set at like 90*]) is that you can't get the right temps... that would be the issue for me, at least.

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

The problem with tubs however (unless you have a heated room or special heating; i.e., one large heat source on the cool side [set at like 80*] and a smaller on on the hot side [set at like 90*]) is that you can't get the right temps... that would be the issue for me, at least.

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I have my room at about 75* and the tubs stay at about 80*. A space heater is always an option.

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Originally Posted by tjones

First off i know plenty of people that keep there snakes together, and its my choice for doing this, secondly, just because they are kept in the same cage doesnt mean that their going to be uncomfortable or have a bad life, if you have a big enough enclosure so that they both have enough room to move I dont see why having two ball pythons together is a bad thing!!!

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Before you get upset, none of the following questions/comments are meant to upset you.

1) How experienced are these people you know, and how many snakes do they have?
2) Ball Pythons are not social animals. Chances are you will never find Ball Pythons together, unless they're breeding.
3) The snakes will most likely compete for the best hot spots, cold spots, hiding places (even if you have a bunch), and comfort zones.
4) The "cuddling" you might observe, is not cuddling at all. It's fighting for dominance.
5) Ball Pythons don't necessarily appreciate all this room you are willing to offer them. In the wild, they live underground, in termite mounds, rodent holes, etc. Not a lot of leg room, to say the least.

Can you see why keeping them apart would most likely give you much happier snakes?

And FYI, I didn't say they were going to have a bad life. I said they'll be happier when kept apart.

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Originally Posted by tjones

First off i know plenty of people that keep there snakes together, and its my choice for doing this, secondly, just because they are kept in the same cage doesnt mean that their going to be uncomfortable or have a bad life, if you have a big enough enclosure so that they both have enough room to move I dont see why having two ball pythons together is a bad thing!!!

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Your statement seems very naive and unruly. You don't seem like your caring for your animals as much as your caring for your desires. It's a shame your animals have to suffer in such a stressful environment.
Ball pythons are not social, in fact, I would consider them anti-social. Two males will fight at breeding age, and possibly injure each other. A male and female could breed much too early and kill the female when she becomes egg bound. All diseases, which tends to happen to a snake keeper one way or another, are spread to both animals indefinitely, and both animals need a vet bill.

They will also dominate each other for a 'good spot' in the cage. Seeing them lay on each other is dominance, and is stressful and will probably eventually lead to feeding issues.

Do you really want to risk all of these things, including cannibalism for the sake of what you think theres nothing wrong with?
If you can list as many factual pros to having two snakes in the same enclosure longer than a couple days for breeding, then I will hands down admit I am wrong.

Good luck.

Sorry DutchHerp for being so definsive, i just thought that it would be alright to keep them together, ok so what are my options for housing... i have one in a 40 gallon breeder tank, and im not getting my other one until summer, and im not going to breed them i just have them for pets thats it, also i dont have that much room for cages, so what should i do. I will listen to you and keep them apart.

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Originally Posted by tjones

Sorry DutchHerp for being so definsive, i just thought that it would be alright to keep them together, ok so what are my options for housing... i have one in a 40 gallon breeder tank, and im not getting my other one until summer, and im not going to breed them i just have them for pets thats it, also i dont have that much room for cages, so what should i do. I will listen to you and keep them apart.

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You could go the tub route, put a separator in the 40gallon, or get 2 20gallons.

Is a 20 gallon big enough for a ball python at adulthood it seems small.

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Originally Posted by tjones

Sorry DutchHerp for being so definsive, i just thought that it would be alright to keep them together, ok so what are my options for housing... i have one in a 40 gallon breeder tank, and im not getting my other one until summer, and im not going to breed them i just have them for pets thats it, also i dont have that much room for cages, so what should i do. I will listen to you and keep them apart.

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Ey man it's cool.

I recommend just getting two 20gals, slapping a heat pad with a thermostat under there. How cold does your room get?

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Originally Posted by tjones

Sorry DutchHerp for being so definsive, i just thought that it would be alright to keep them together, ok so what are my options for housing... i have one in a 40 gallon breeder tank, and im not getting my other one until summer, and im not going to breed them i just have them for pets thats it, also i dont have that much room for cages, so what should i do. I will listen to you and keep them apart.

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Are you severely set on nice looking cages?
You could store your 40 breeder in your basement away somewhere for a bigger snake one day and get two 20 gallons. It would be about the same size as one 40 gallon.

If you don't have room or money, and don't care about space. Depending on the age of your ball pythons you can go out and get two appropriately sized tubs for them.
If they are hatchlings-yearlings a 15quart will probably work perfectly. If they are older, or too large, a 32quart could probably hold most adults except for larger females which might have to go to 41quarts.

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Originally Posted by tjones

Is a 20 gallon big enough for a ball python at adulthood it seems small.

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Unless you have a 2,000+ gram female, it is perfectly fine for an adult BP. Make sure its a 20gallon long though. :D

my room is about 70, around that

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Are you severely set on nice looking cages?
You could store your 40 breeder in your basement away somewhere for a bigger snake one day and get two 20 gallons. It would be about the same size as one 40 gallon.

If you don't have room or money, and don't care about space. Depending on the age of your ball pythons you can go out and get two appropriately sized tubs for them.
If they are hatchlings-yearlings a 15quart will probably work perfectly. If they are older, or too large, a 32quart could probably hold most adults except for larger females which might have to go to 41quarts.

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i would like something that looks nice, but a 20gallon long doesnt seem that big but if you say so.

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Originally Posted by tjones

my room is about 70, around that

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That's where you might run in to problems.

This is what I suggest:

Get a large heat pad, which covers approximately 2/3 of the tank. Set the temperature on your thermostat at about 80*.

Then get a smaller pad, covering approximately 1/3 of the tank, and set the temperature here at about 90*. This way you'll have an excellent thermal gradient.

The same thing can be accomplished in a tub.

You'll need two thermostats though...

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That's where you might run in to problems.

This is what I suggest:

Get a large heat pad, which covers approximately 2/3 of the tank. Set the temperature on your thermostat at about 80*.

Then get a smaller pad, covering approximately 1/3 of the tank, and set the temperature here at about 90*. This way you'll have an excellent thermal gradient.

The same thing can be accomplished in a tub.

You'll need two thermostats though...

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But the thing is that im only 16 years old and this will be costing me alot of money, and also the only reason i am aloud to get another bp is that i was planning on building a cage from a dresser and keeping both snakes in the cage but now i told my parents that i should have two different cages and now their saying that, thats not a good idea so thats why i wanted to keep both snakes in one cage. See my problem, im luck for having one snake

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Originally Posted by tjones

But the thing is that im only 16 years old and this will be costing me alot of money, and also the only reason i am aloud to get another bp is that i was planning on building a cage from a dresser and keeping both snakes in the cage but now i told my parents that i should have two different cages and now their saying that, thats not a good idea so thats why i wanted to keep both snakes in one cage. See my problem, im luck for having one snake

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You can set up two tubs for under $100. :P

If you can't afford to take care of another animal, maybe you should hold off on getting another.

i can afford it but its just alot of money, maybe i could get a dresser and have a enclosure on top and one on the bottom, what do you think about cages made from dressers or cabinets???

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Originally Posted by tjones

But the thing is that im only 16 years old and this will be costing me alot of money, and also the only reason i am aloud to get another bp is that i was planning on building a cage from a dresser and keeping both snakes in the cage but now i told my parents that i should have two different cages and now their saying that, thats not a good idea so thats why i wanted to keep both snakes in one cage. See my problem, im luck for having one snake

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Two 32qt tubs take up a LOT less room than 40 gal.... and if you can't provide proper housing for the snakes, you really shouldn't get a second snake yet...

But what do you think about with converting a dresser into two snake cages, one on the top and one on the bottom???

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Originally Posted by tjones

But what do you think about with converting a dresser into two snake cages, one on the top and one on the bottom???

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If you could do that, or make a single cage with a divider, that would work fine. :]

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Originally Posted by DaPyro

i insist on housing them together(i'm pretty persistent, sorry) So in the case of housing them both together, what would be a good size tank at adult growth?

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You came here for advise, and now that you have it, you insist on not taking it. Sorry, but we've all seen this story here before. If your BP set up is for your pleasure, and not the snake's comfort and security, you should be keeping corn snakes. You may want to open up a Word Doc and get a jump start on writing up your, "My Snakes Won't Eat" thread. It'll save you some time in the future. Sorry, but the question of housing BPs together in the same enclosure comes up almost weekly, and it's just not a good idea.

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Originally Posted by tjones

First off i know plenty of people that keep there snakes together, and its my choice for doing this, secondly, just because they are kept in the same cage doesnt mean that their going to be uncomfortable or have a bad life, if you have a big enough enclosure so that they both have enough room to move I dont see why having two ball pythons together is a bad thing!!!

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You are making a very bad choice. Please see my response to DaPyro above.

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Originally Posted by tjones

I will listen to you and keep them apart.

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Now, you are making a very good choice.

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Originally Posted by tjones

Is a 20 gallon big enough for a ball python at adulthood it seems small.

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Unless you have a big female, a 20 Gal long will be plenty big enough, and please remember your BP won't be full grown for several years.

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Originally Posted by tjones

i told my parents that i should have two different cages and now their saying that, thats not a good idea so thats why i wanted to keep both snakes in one cage. See my problem, im luck for having one snake

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Then you really shouldn't be getting a second BP. Concentrate on the one you have and provide it with the best husbandry you can. Dude, take it from an old man, you're 16, you have a whole lifetime to get more snakes.

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Originally Posted by tjones

First off i know plenty of people that keep there snakes together, and its my choice for doing this, secondly, just because they are kept in the same cage doesnt mean that their going to be uncomfortable or have a bad life, if you have a big enough enclosure so that they both have enough room to move I dont see why having two ball pythons together is a bad thing!!!

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To be blunt you do not have the herp keeping experience at this point to see why having two ball pythons living together all the time is a bad thing and folks in this thread are trying to help you avoid problems for you and the snakes.

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

The problem with tubs however (unless you have a heated room or special heating; i.e., one large heat source on the cool side [set at like 80*] and a smaller on on the hot side [set at like 90*]) is that you can't get the right temps... that would be the issue for me, at least.

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Funny, I have tons of tubs and they all hold temps and humidity just fine. I have two glass enclosures, those cause me trouble.

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Originally Posted by tjones

Sorry DutchHerp for being so definsive, i just thought that it would be alright to keep them together, ok so what are my options for housing... i have one in a 40 gallon breeder tank, and im not getting my other one until summer, and im not going to breed them i just have them for pets thats it, also i dont have that much room for cages, so what should i do. I will listen to you and keep them apart.

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Two snakes, two enclosures.

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Originally Posted by tjones

But the thing is that im only 16 years old and this will be costing me alot of money, and also the only reason i am aloud to get another bp is that i was planning on building a cage from a dresser and keeping both snakes in the cage but now i told my parents that i should have two different cages and now their saying that, thats not a good idea so thats why i wanted to keep both snakes in one cage. See my problem, im luck for having one snake

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Do your parents own or have experience keeping snakes? It comes down to this. You have one snake now. Why not focus on that one snake and learn to enjoy it and understand it as a species. If you do not have the money or the room to house another snake, then wait till you do. It may be best anyways to wait until you are older and have your own home and can set your own rules since it doesn't sound like your parents are all that interested in these snakes or learning about their needs.

Look down at the other one i screwed up on this one

Ok i will wait till after college, which will be a very very long time because i will be attending UW-Madison for Vet Med (about 9 years average), then i will be transfering to a college that specializes in reptiles(5-8 years about)!!! i have a few in mind but do any of you know any??? But when i get out i will hopefully be a REPTILE VET :gj::gj:!!!!! So in about twenty years if you ever need help with your reptiles i will hopfully be your man. Look for my name TANNER JONES!! HAHAHA

But anyways thanks for the advise i will take it, and wait even though i really really really really wanted that bumblebee!!!

But look for me at the WIRE show in Wisconsin ( Im going to alot in the Midwest since I live in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin, All Animal Expo in IL, Sewerfest in WI, NARBC in Chicago, and maybe I might be down at the NRBE down in FL. So i hope to see some of you there, because I would really like to be more involved in the reptile community, have any ideas besides going to shows????

Thanks Again
Tanner Jones
REMEMBER LOOK FOR MY NAME IN 20 YEARS!!!!

By the way can I see your reptile setups (racks, cages, ext.)
or pictures of your room

Sounds like you've got a great future, Tanner. It might be best really when you think of it to stick to one snake right now anyways. With all the years of school facing you, you can't know at this point if you'll be living on campus in a dorm room that won't allow reptiles or whatever. It's very hard to have to rehome your snakes if college prevents you from keeping them so if you do expand your collection while still in high school I'd really suggest you make a plan now for their future care. We see an awful lot of younger people here that are struggling because they want to get a higher education but they don't want to have to give up their pets to do so. Sometimes it comes down to that if you haven't set up a plan in advance.

Here's a thought for you. In order to fill your need to work with more snakes maybe you could look into a program at your local zoo in their reptile house. Our zoo here in Toledo has a wonderful teen program where kids get to do some basic work around the reptiles. Also you could research and see if you have any major snake breeders near you. Offering to work for them or volunteer for them is a wonderful way for a young person to see the real goings on of snake breeding and keeping. Another area might be a regular reptile show in your area. Contact the organizer and see if they'd like some help. That would expose you to many different breeders and owners of reptiles and lots of different creatures. Also shows build a network for you for your future.

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Originally Posted by tjones

Sorry DutchHerp for being so definsive, i just thought that it would be alright to keep them together, ok so what are my options for housing... i have one in a 40 gallon breeder tank, and im not getting my other one until summer, and im not going to breed them i just have them for pets thats it, also i dont have that much room for cages, so what should i do. I will listen to you and keep them apart.

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Why don't you put a divider in the 40 Gal that you already have?

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Sounds like you've got a great future, Tanner. It might be best really when you think of it to stick to one snake right now anyways. With all the years of school facing you, you can't know at this point if you'll be living on campus in a dorm room that won't allow reptiles or whatever. It's very hard to have to rehome your snakes if college prevents you from keeping them so if you do expand your collection while still in high school I'd really suggest you make a plan now for their future care. We see an awful lot of younger people here that are struggling because they want to get a higher education but they don't want to have to give up their pets to do so. Sometimes it comes down to that if you haven't set up a plan in advance.

Here's a thought for you. In order to fill your need to work with more snakes maybe you could look into a program at your local zoo in their reptile house. Our zoo here in Toledo has a wonderful teen program where kids get to do some basic work around the reptiles. Also you could research and see if you have any major snake breeders near you. Offering to work for them or volunteer for them is a wonderful way for a young person to see the real goings on of snake breeding and keeping. Another area might be a regular reptile show in your area. Contact the organizer and see if they'd like some help. That would expose you to many different breeders and owners of reptiles and lots of different creatures. Also shows build a network for you for your future.

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Thanks for all that information, i will definitly try and find some local breeders, our zoo doesnt have any reptiles in it so that wouldnt work, but i live about 2 hours away from garrick at royal constritor designs and maybe a few times a week i could go over there and help with him, I will be attending alot of reptiles shows and expos so i can get into the reptile community, i will definitly take your advise, will you be attending any shows in the midwest anytime soon i would like to meet you in person, talk alittle maybe show me around.