Are my BPs healthy weights?

I was reading the Breeding FAQs and according to them my BPs are like, super, super skinny!!

They are both a little less than 3 feet long:

The female is 650 grams (~4 years old)
The male is 524 grams (~3.7 years old)

Anyway, the breeding FAQ said the females should be around 500g PER FOOT... so should my female be almost 1500g? I feed them good-sized rats every week, and I don't know what to think!!

4 years old and 650 grams is very small....not saying you're snakes are skinny but they are technically "undersized" for lack of a better term....Pics would help to know if they are unhealthy/skinny.

Both weights sound a little low, but every BP grows at different rates. Pics would help.

Since I do not know there history and whether or not they have been underfed I would HIGHLY recommend you to have a fecal done.

Female
http://i39.tinypic.com/2jdi4ye.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/293gbvs.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2s97jlv.jpg

Male
http://i41.tinypic.com/20h348g.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/30sysl3.jpg

They look quite healthy to me.

At those ages and weights, I'd be looking at how much I was feeding first.

But since they're both small, I'd be getting fecals done also.

I have a male 1.5 y/o & female 4 y/o that were around the same sizes as yours I got them back in Dec. was told they were picky eaters :rolleyes:, I put them on a 5 day schedule of small rats (they were on mice b4 I got them)
Now the male is 900+g, and the female is almost 800g, they are back on a weekly schedule.

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

At those ages and weights, I'd be looking at how much I was feeding first.

But since they're both small, I'd be getting fecals done also.

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will someone explain to me what a fecal is and what purpose it serves?

Hi,

A fecal is when you take a sample of fresh poop and put it in the fridge (not the freezer - it mucks it up ) until you can take it to a vet who will prepare it and look for signs of internal parasites.

Idealy you want to get it to the vets in under 24 hours.

There are alternatives but that is the best way to do it.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

A fecal is when you take a sample of fresh poop and put it in the fridge (not the freezer - it mucks it up ) until you can take it to a vet who will prepare it and look for signs of internal parasites.

Idealy you want to get it to the vets in under 24 hours.

There are alternatives but that is the best way to do it.


dr del

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gotcha, thanks for the heads up

Is this really something i should go see a vet for?

If your sure about the age, and weight they are a bit underweight, I have a 2 year old female and shes 759g and she is a picky eater, but yours look very helthy, so ???

I'll just increase their diet a little, and if I'm still having problems, I'll see a vet. I was planning to take them to our local petstore for a checkup on Tuesday anyway. ^_^

How much does the food you are giving them weigh? Sounds like you are underfeeding them. You should feed 10% of their body weight for each meal.

Do they ever refuse food? They do seem pretty underweight. Most snakes at that age are 100grams+, although all snakes grow at different rates.

I would take them to the vet just to be safe. A fecal costs about $25 if I remember correctly.

you mean 1000g? And no, they never refuse food..

Okay, It does sound like I've been underfeeding them. Ugh. I feel REALLY terrible now.

I'll look into getting a fectal ASAP, and start feeding them more.

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Originally Posted by Flicker

you mean 1000g? And no, they never refuse food..

Okay, It does sound like I've been underfeeding them. Ugh. I feel REALLY terrible now.

I'll look into getting a fectal ASAP, and start feeding them more.

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Yeah 1000 :bow:

Don't feel teririble! I am really glad you are active about doing the best for your snakes and not neglecting advice because it is inconvenient.

Looks like you could defiantly start feeding them bigger meals. I am sure they will be putting on weight like there is no tomorrow. Do you ever notice them cruising the tank a few days after they have been fed? I noticed this when I got my first BP and then realized she was hungry! I started upping her meals and now she is a fat and happy girl :D

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Yeah 1000 :bow:

Don't feel teririble! I am really glad you are active about doing the best for your snakes and not neglecting advice because it is inconvenient.

Looks like you could defiantly start feeding them bigger meals. I am sure they will be putting on weight like there is no tomorrow. Do you ever notice them cruising the tank a few days after they have been fed? I noticed this when I got my first BP and then realized she was hungry! I started upping her meals and now she is a fat and happy girl :D

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Yeah, they do that sometime, but I take the hint and get them food as soon as I can. I think the main problem is that i waited WAYYYYYYYY too much time to switch them to rats. They are very picky eaters and used to refuse rats all the time, so I just kept them on largish mice. They're finally eating rats now and I think they're already putting on weight--and They're stopped cruising since I started them on rats too... I think that sounds pretty accurate, don't you?

And, just wondering, what is the purpose of the fectal? Could parasites be causing a increased motabalism or something? And do they need special equipment to do it?--or does a petstore have the knowhow?

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Originally Posted by Flicker

Yeah, they do that sometime, but I take the hint and get them food as soon as I can. I think the main problem is that i waited WAYYYYYYYY too much time to switch them to rats. They are very picky eaters and used to refuse rats all the time, so I just kept them on largish mice. They're finally eating rats now and I think they're already putting on weight--and They're stopped cruising since I started them on rats too... I think that sounds pretty accurate, don't you?

And, just wondering, what is the purpose of the fectal? Could parasites be causing a increased motabalism or something? And do they need special equipment to do it?--or does a petstore have the knowhow?

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Yep, sounds about right.
Although from your previous posts you have said that you house them together. Food refusal is very common with BP's housed together. Although you might not be having problems now, it would probably be more beneficial for them to be housed separately, especially if you are going to get a fecal done for each of them. That way you can tell who's poo is who's (haha).

A fecal float checks for parasites that could be leaching the nutrition from your BP causing them to either loose weight, or gain it very slowly. I am pretty sure only a vet can do it. I don't think a petstore would even know what one was.

A fecal should be done once a year as part of their yearly exam.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Yep, sounds about right.
Although from your previous posts you have said that you house them together. Food refusal is very common with BP's housed together. Although you might not be having problems now, it would probably be more beneficial for them to be housed separately, especially if you are going to get a fecal done for each of them. That way you can tell who's poo is who's (haha).

A fecal float checks for parasites that could be leaching the nutrition from your BP causing them to either loose weight, or gain it very slowly. I am pretty sure only a vet can do it. I don't think a petstore would even know what one was.

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Yup! :) I'm looking into a larger cage so I can add a divider-I really don't want to deal with tubs--They seem less secure than glass tanks and my Bps are major escape artists.

Would you reccomend separating a tank with something NOT transparent or using tubs?

The idea of tubs is growing on me... In their an informational thread? I skimmed and I didn't see it stickied..

I have read is possible to breed something like "bonsai-BP". Only what you need to do is feed them less. Not let them starving. Just feed less than usual for first one or two years and they would not grow... I do not know how big nonsense it is or not...

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Originally Posted by Flicker

I'll just increase their diet a little, and if I'm still having problems, I'll see a vet. I was planning to take them to our local petstore for a checkup on Tuesday anyway. ^_^

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Your petstore has a vet?

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Originally Posted by Flicker

Yeah, they do that sometime, but I take the hint and get them food as soon as I can. I think the main problem is that i waited WAYYYYYYYY too much time to switch them to rats. They are very picky eaters and used to refuse rats all the time, so I just kept them on largish mice. They're finally eating rats now and I think they're already putting on weight--and They're stopped cruising since I started them on rats too... I think that sounds pretty accurate, don't you?

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Many bp's grow quite fine on mice. It's not a mice or rats thing, it's about providing the right total volume of prey each week. If you feed rats that might be one rat, if you feed mice that might be enough mice to equal the volume of one rat. It's also about providing a prey animal that is itself in top condition. No matter how much you feed, if the prey animal is dehydrated, underfed or sickly, it doesn't provide enough for your snake to grow much on.

[QUOTE}And, just wondering, what is the purpose of the fectal? Could parasites be causing a increased motabalism or something? And do they need special equipment to do it?--or does a petstore have the knowhow?[/QUOTE]

Again, I would ask, does your petstore have a vet on staff or that visits there? Most petstores quite honestly don't know their butt from a hole in the ground when it comes to good care. Most give bad advice or very outdated advice they are simply parrotting and really don't know why. If you have a good petstore that has real experience, then you are pretty lucky - most are not that way at all.

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Originally Posted by Flicker

The idea of tubs is growing on me... In their an informational thread? I skimmed and I didn't see it stickied..

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At the top of every page here is a Search function. Type in "plastic tubs" and you should find tons of threads (I just tried it and I did). Read a few of them to get a good idea of how to set up two tubs as I firmly believe part of your snake's issues with growth may be related to the stress of communal housing. Add that to feeding routines and the possibility of parasites.

Speaking of shared housing, one of your issues with taking in fecal samples is you are going to have quite a lot of problems doing that right now because unless you catch the snake's pooping, you cannot confirm who dropped what. Likely if one has parasites, the other does too but for the sake of knowing for sure, I would suggest you seperate them first into their own new homes, then do fecals on both after they are apart.

Again, most likely a good vet would suggest both be treated since they have lived together and been slithering over each others poop, laying together and sharing a water dish but personally I'd rather collect stool samples individually after they are seperated.

Phone around to vets now, ask who does fecal floats on snake feces onsite. Ask what they charge for that service (the snake doesn't go in, just the poop sample). If the report comes back that they have internal parasites, which suck the nutrition right out of whatever they eat, then you would take the snakes in and the vet would treat them.

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Originally Posted by Flicker

I'll just increase their diet a little, and if I'm still having problems, I'll see a vet. I was planning to take them to our local petstore for a checkup on Tuesday anyway. ^_^

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A vet would be a better choice for a "check-up", not a pet store where they could be exposed to other illnesses and parasites. Especially since pet store workers don't have DVM behind their names, or have veterinary training. :)

To me the female looks underweight - you can see her skin folding some in the pictures.

A fecal exam costs about $20 and the treatment is about $5 a dose, if they test positive for internal parasites.

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Originally Posted by Malpaso

I have read is possible to breed something like "bonsai-BP". Only what you need to do is feed them less. Not let them starving. Just feed less than usual for first one or two years and they would not grow... I do not know how big nonsense it is or not...

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Never heard of such a thing - but I know that Joanna (frankykeno) rescued a 2 year old female who was very small from not being fed well - and now she's breeding this year - she rebounded quite well, once she was vet checked and put on a proper diet.

Do you have a scale? I was just curious since you're giving weights. You could easily weigh the size of the feeder that you're giving them as well. It should be 10% of the animals body weight (as far as I've been told).

Some PetSmart's have vets there but I'd be very cautious as most vets don't specialize in reptiles. Just call and make sure to ask their speciality. If it were me, I'd only take the fecal samples into the vet since it's in a pet store since (as stated before) there could be many things that your snakes could catch from other snakes in the store. Or even if the vet tech/assistant or even vet didn't properly sanitize themselves, tables, equipment, etc before handling your snake after handling a potential disease/parasite infested animal prior to your snake's exam.

For the fecal: Take a sandwich bag and turn it inside out. Stick your hand in the bag (inside out so you're touching the outside of the bag) and pick up the poop. Then turn it right side in so that you can close it. Then stick into fridge and label who's sample it is and also the time that you collected it. Then just take to vet's and they should be able to give you results less than 5 minutes of checking it.

Good luck and keep us posted :gj:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

A vet would be a better choice for a "check-up", not a pet store where they could be exposed to other illnesses and parasites. Especially since pet store workers don't have DVM behind their names, or have veterinary training. :)

To me the female looks underweight - you can see her skin folding some in the pictures.

A fecal exam costs about $20 and the treatment is about $5 a dose, if they test positive for internal parasites.

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What do you mean folding? where?

Thanks for all the help and feedback everyone is giving me! You guys are being so helpful!

I havn't been feeding them 10% of their weight... I'll start that right away. I had NEVER heard that rule before.

Also, I called around a few vets and none of them specialized in reptiles...

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Originally Posted by Flicker

What do you mean folding? where?

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http://i41.tinypic.com/20h348g.jpg

As for locating a vet, have you asked if any of them are willing to do a fecal float for a reptile?

That is why we have all the materials to do our own fecal exams at home. When we get a fresh fecal anytime we take the chance to learn and inspect. Seeing that some of our don't eat anything we don't produce year round we don't do fecals on all of them annually. But we do try to get fecals on all of our snakes as often as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Never heard of such a thing - but I know that Joanna (frankykeno) rescued a 2 year old female who was very small from not being fed well - and now she's breeding this year - she rebounded quite well, once she was vet checked and put on a proper diet.

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I can't see how a few years of underfeeding would keep them small. Wouldn't it be just plain slowing down their growing, not stopping it for good.

We adopted two girls this past year. Both around 2-3 years of age and barely 500 grams. They had a tell tale triangular underweight look to them, thin, really soft, loose skin, stuck shed and eye caps. They were being fed a small mouse once a week.

Since we've been feeding them an appropriately sized meal weekly (baby rat no bigger around then their widest point), they have both put on a couple of hundred grams and finally look like normal young ball pythons. We haven't stuffed them or power-fed, and they defecate in small amounts. As far as we can figure, they are using just about all the food for growth.

They are a rounded well developed shape, firm to the touch, stronger and actually have gotten developed more color, getting darker.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

http://i41.tinypic.com/20h348g.jpg

As for locating a vet, have you asked if any of them are willing to do a fecal float for a reptile?

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Thats the male, but I think I know what you mean...

I live pretty far away from denver, so I've just called some local places. None of them do. I'm going to start looking up some vets in Denver soon.

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Originally Posted by Flicker

Thats the male, but I think I know what you mean...

I live pretty far away from denver, so I've just called some local places. None of them do. I'm going to start looking up some vets in Denver soon.

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http://www.herpvetconnection.com/

http://www.anapsid.org/vets/#vetlist

http://www.arav.org/usmembers.htm

I hope this helps

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Never heard of such a thing - but I know that Joanna (frankykeno) rescued a 2 year old female who was very small from not being fed well - and now she's breeding this year - she rebounded quite well, once she was vet checked and put on a proper diet.

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I haven't either Robin but anyone that would purposefully withhold food from any animal be that a snake or a dog or whatever, to stunt it's growth unnaturally is as far as I'm concerned guilty of animal abuse. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Flicker

Thanks for all the help and feedback everyone is giving me! You guys are being so helpful!

I havn't been feeding them 10% of their weight... I'll start that right away. I had NEVER heard that rule before.

Also, I called around a few vets and none of them specialized in reptiles...

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Did you ask them if they can do a fecal float on your snake's poop? Far as I know a fecal is a fecal and isn't even done by the vet but rather by one of the technicians. If they give you a result and do not feel they can treat the snake then you can ask for a referral to a herp experienced vet.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I can't see how a few years of underfeeding would keep them small. Wouldn't it be just plain slowing down their growing, not stopping it for good.

We adopted two girls this past year. Both around 2-3 years of age and barely 500 grams. They had a tell tale triangular underweight look to them, thin, really soft, loose skin, stuck shed and eye caps. They were being fed a small mouse once a week.

Since we've been feeding them an appropriately sized meal weekly (baby rat no bigger around then their widest point), they have both put on a couple of hundred grams and finally look like normal young ball pythons. We haven't stuffed them or power-fed, and they defecate in small amounts. As far as we can figure, they are using just about all the food for growth.

They are a rounded well developed shape, firm to the touch, stronger and actually have gotten developed more color, getting darker.

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I've seen it go both ways Connie. The snake Robin is referring to was just under 2 years of age and approximately 1 to 2 inches longer than a normal six month old female ball python. She weighed in at almost the exact weight range of a 6 month old snake. I double, then triple checked with her previous owners but they remembered exactly when they got her. They had underfed her, her entire life based on the very bad advice of a pet store clerk.

As Robin said, Kyna was put on a proper diet and very, very quickly grew in both weight and length and produced her first clutch of 7 hatchlings for us last year.

We have other snakes that came in as adults that were of appropriate length but severly underweight. I wonder if it's something to do with age perhaps. If the snake can achieve adulthood before it's left neglected and underfed maybe they do get big but skinny. However, if they are underfed from hatching then it makes sense that very little of what they do get would go into much growth and would just be used to sustain what pitiful existance they manage to have. Just a theory though.

I'll see if I can dig up the old picture of Kyna I have (she was called Punkin by her previous owners).

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

http://www.herpvetconnection.com/

http://www.anapsid.org/vets/#vetlist

http://www.arav.org/usmembers.htm

I hope this helps

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found one, called, and they do floats! Thank you!

I need to get them in separate tubs before I can get a float done, though--they live together right now.

Connie, here's the picture of Kyna that I got from her owners before I took her in. It's not a great shot but you can see there is retained shed, she's far smaller than I would have expected her to be and if you look closely her skin is loose under her neck (where it presses into his hand). All and all she was a case of lifelong mismanagement by her owners who as I said followed very poor advice from their local pet store.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...cfrompre-1.jpg

Unfortunately sometime after we got her I had a complete failure on my harddrive and the original records of her weight are lost but compared side by side with Rionnach, our 6 to 9 month old ball python, Kyna was almost the same size but obviously in poor condition.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Connie, here's the picture of Kyna that I got from her owners before I took her in. It's not a great shot but you can see there is retained shed, she's far smaller than I would have expected her to be and if you look closely her skin is loose under her neck (where it presses into his hand). All and all she was a case of lifelong mismanagement by her owners who as I said followed very poor advice from their local pet store.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...cfrompre-1.jpg

Unfortunately sometime after we got her I had a complete failure on my harddrive and the original records of her weight are lost but compared side by side with Rionnach, our 6 to 9 month old ball python, Kyna was almost the same size but obviously in poor condition.

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I really didnt think they would stay THAT small, that's pretty incredible. She really is about the size of a 6 months old. I guess I more meant that I couldn't imagine the snake only staying that size, but it sounds like from your descriptions that she has grown quite larger since she's been with you.

From the post by Malposo, I got from it that the BP would stay that size there if underfed for a couple of years and not grow any bigger even if fed regular sized meals.

If I start feeding them better amounts now, will they be okay? I mean, they're not going to go "bonsai" or have breeding complication later in life, right? This is worrying me...

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I really didnt think they would stay THAT small, that's pretty incredible. She really is about the size of a 6 months old. I guess I more meant that I couldn't imagine the snake only staying that size, but it sounds like from your descriptions that she has grown quite larger since she's been with you.

From the post by Malposo, I got from it that the BP would stay that size there if underfed for a couple of years and not grow any bigger even if fed regular sized meals.

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Well pictures say her story. This is Kyna last year on her nice 7 egg clutch. A bit thin post-lay as most of them are but she bounced right back to her pre-breeding season healthy weight which is usually around the 1,800 gram mark. :)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ch06-08-08.jpg

I doubt you could permanently stunt a snake by poor feeding but I hope I never find out if that's the truth. Awful thing to contemplate someone doing on purpose isn't it. We did worry over Kyna even as she grew because she was so obviously undersized at almost 2 years of age. We weren't sure if there would be long lasting physical effects for her but she simply glows with good health now. She's also one of our most outgoing ball pythons. We often say she acts more like our boas than a ball python. :)