New blood!

I ordered a SSTP today! I'm so excited. I will get pics up A.S.A.P. And btw I ordered them from LLLReptile.com if you wanted to know.

Congrats! I can't wait to see some pics.

Hopefully this one isn't related to the one I got from them. Did they actually list them as SSTs when you ordered, or 'borneo black bloods?'

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Originally Posted by aahmn

Congrats! I can't wait to see some pics.

Hopefully this one isn't related to the one I got from them. Did they actually list them as SSTs when you ordered, or 'borneo black bloods?'

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They were listed as Sumatran Blood Pythons but I figured they were SST's.

no it was sumatuan when i ordered it male

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Originally Posted by PythonBreeder

They were listed as Sumatran Blood Pythons but I figured they were SST's.

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SSTP (Sumatran Short Tail python) refers to 'black bloods,' not reds. If they listed them as red bloods, or Sumatran red bloods, then that's what you should be getting.

If what LLL has listed on they're site is correct. And you ordered a Sumatran Blood Python, you got a Python Brongersmai, not a Borneo, or a SSTP. Red bloods are the largest size obtaining of the 3 sub-species. Of course there can be variances.

Is this what you ordered? If not, throw a link up of what you bought.

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/...blood-pythons/

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

If what LLL has listed on they're site is correct. And you ordered a Sumatran Blood Python, you got a Python Brongersmai, not a Borneo, or a SSTP. Red bloods are the largest size obtaining of the 3 sub-species. Of course there can be variances.

Is this what you ordered? If not, throw a link up of what you bought.

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/...blood-pythons/

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Yes thats what i ordered.

Then that's not a SSTP.

That's a Sumatran Blood Python, AKA Red Blood.

Males average 3-5+ feet and over 15 pounds.

I have a male that is still growing and hes already 5 feet and 13 pounds at 3 years old.

Here he is about 6 months ago, he's a yellow phase though.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2.../trevor064.jpg

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

Then that's not a SSTP.

That's a Sumatran Blood Python, AKA Red Blood.

Males average 3-5+ feet and over 15 pounds.

I have a male that is still growing and hes already 5 feet and 13 pounds at 3 years old.

Here he is about 6 months ago, he's a yellow phase though.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2.../trevor064.jpg

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Thats a really nice snake!

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

Then that's not a SSTP.

That's a Sumatran Blood Python, AKA Red Blood.

Males average 3-5+ feet and over 15 pounds.

I have a male that is still growing and hes already 5 feet and 13 pounds at 3 years old.

Here he is about 6 months ago, he's a yellow phase though.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2.../trevor064.jpg

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but wait it says the species is a python curtus curtus

They probably don't know the difference. They don't specialize in them and just sell large lots of cb and fh and many times mislabel them which just adds to the confusion that new keepers have about the 3 species.

The snake pictured is a python brongersmai. Python curtus curtus is an outdated term that refers to the black blood now known as python curtus. Post pictures of your snake when you get it and we'll tell you what it is.

No, they don't know the difference. Even if you try to find out exactly what you got, you can't be sure. Reds are much more obvious, but I got a baby in Chicago labeled a "Python curtus curtus," Borneo Black Blood, and I thought the 'Borneo' was just an error on their part. They said it was a pure SST when I tried to find out more info, but I found out later that it was sold to them as a 'Borneo Black Blood' (it was wholesaled, of course) and breeders I've talked to say that it looks like a cross. So now I have this cool looking little baby that I had to buy because it was different looking, but can never be bred because I can't be sure what it is. I wouldn't normally have bought from them, but the baby was just so darn cute I couldn't resist...

That's one thing that's really bad about buying from a wholesaler. It may be cheap, but you most likely will never be able to get any info on the animal itself. It's especially a problem when you have 3 very similar species that someone might just be breeding together because they can and dumping the babies on an uninformed wholesaler. I know they said they had a couple clutches from whoever sold them my snake (all they were willing to tell me), so there are a number of people who bought them thinking they were pure and will maybe breed them in the future when it's likely that they're not. Then everything gets all muddied up and you lose the integrity of the individual species.

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Originally Posted by aahmn

No, they don't know the difference. Even if you try to find out exactly what you got, you can't be sure. Reds are much more obvious, but I got a baby in Chicago labeled a "Python curtus curtus," Borneo Black Blood, and I thought the 'Borneo' was just an error on their part. They said it was a pure SST when I tried to find out more info, but I found out later that it was sold to them as a 'Borneo Black Blood' (it was wholesaled, of course) and breeders I've talked to say that it looks like a cross. So now I have this cool looking little baby that I had to buy because it was different looking, but can never be bred because I can't be sure what it is. I wouldn't normally have bought from them, but the baby was just so darn cute I couldn't resist...

That's one thing that's really bad about buying from a wholesaler. It may be cheap, but you most likely will never be able to get any info on the animal itself. It's especially a problem when you have 3 very similar species that someone might just be breeding together because they can and dumping the babies on an uninformed wholesaler. I know they said they had a couple clutches from whoever sold them my snake (all they were willing to tell me), so there are a number of people who bought them thinking they were pure and will maybe breed them in the future when it's likely that they're not. Then everything gets all muddied up and you lose the integrity of the individual species.

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Thanks for that. I'll definately post pics when he gets here on tuesday.

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Originally Posted by aahmn

No, they don't know the difference. Even if you try to find out exactly what you got, you can't be sure. Reds are much more obvious, but I got a baby in Chicago labeled a "Python curtus curtus," Borneo Black Blood, and I thought the 'Borneo' was just an error on their part. They said it was a pure SST when I tried to find out more info, but I found out later that it was sold to them as a 'Borneo Black Blood' (it was wholesaled, of course) and breeders I've talked to say that it looks like a cross. So now I have this cool looking little baby that I had to buy because it was different looking, but can never be bred because I can't be sure what it is. I wouldn't normally have bought from them, but the baby was just so darn cute I couldn't resist...

That's one thing that's really bad about buying from a wholesaler. It may be cheap, but you most likely will never be able to get any info on the animal itself. It's especially a problem when you have 3 very similar species that someone might just be breeding together because they can and dumping the babies on an uninformed wholesaler. I know they said they had a couple clutches from whoever sold them my snake (all they were willing to tell me), so there are a number of people who bought them thinking they were pure and will maybe breed them in the future when it's likely that they're not. Then everything gets all muddied up and you lose the integrity of the individual species.

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Sorry to hear the bad experience, but this is one reason why I really hate to see people breeding across the species. For instances like this where you have no idea what you're really getting.

If LLL is going to sell the blood species, they should know what the heck they are selling!!!

Isnt it kind of elitist to think that one snake isnt as good as another? Especially if your only foundation of such is well I dont know exactly what it is so I guess its not worth anything. I am sorry its just one of those things that Irk me. Like people who pay ridiculous ammounts of money for "purebreed" dogs when there are plenty of loveable dogs dying in shelters everyday

Many people get snakes with the intention of breeding them. Would you intentionally get a mutt to breed and create more mutts to fill up a shelter? Snakes aren't dogs.

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Originally Posted by hardlucktattoo

Isnt it kind of elitist to think that one snake isnt as good as another? Especially if your only foundation of such is well I dont know exactly what it is so I guess its not worth anything. I am sorry its just one of those things that Irk me. Like people who pay ridiculous ammounts of money for "purebreed" dogs when there are plenty of loveable dogs dying in shelters everyday

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These are different species of snakes, not dogs which are the exact same species. Breeds of dogs and cats are not different species, they are one that has been purposely bred to create a phenotype that can be replicated generation after generation, with a temperament and body structure that is reliably the same across the breed.

Yes, I also strongly support pure breed dogs for this exact reason, so I know the temperament and physical reliability of the dog will be exactly like the rest of the breed, and I get what I wanted. The dogs line has been selectively bred to maintain or improve on those standards.

I support dogs in shelters everyday, what I don't support are people purposely breeding pugs and toy poodles, and calling them designer dogs "puggles" or whatever they call them these days. THEY charge and arm and a leg, when it is truly NO different than all the mutts in the shelter. Mutts are loving adorable dogs, but for people that want a pure bred dog for reasons I already said, or personal taste, then they should be able to get that pure breed.

Pure breds cost a lot, because those small groups of people that devote their lives to these breeds put their entire reputation and heart into maintaining a breeds standards, testing for physical ailments, guaranteeing against any of the common problems, properly socializing and always working for the best of the breeds future. They do not exploit the dogs for money, they do it for the breed.

Then, there are puppy mills which are a totally different matter. :mad:


Now, back to what I was originally going to say....

These are different species of snakes, when you cross two different species, it is a hybrid. If someone were to sell me a brongersmai x curtus cross as a sumatran blood (100% brongersmai), that is plain fraud and misrepresentation of the animal.

I would have no use for the animal in my projects, it would just be a hybrid and continue the mutt bloods propagation.

People who realize that the differences between each blood species (and sometimes locality) are important are the driving force behind maintaining that integrity in captivity populations for those who want a pure bred species, which I hope is the majority of hobbyists.

If you do not understand the value of a snake that is exactly the species you believe it to be, then I hope someday you do understand why and embrace it. :gj:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

These are different species of snakes, not dogs which are the exact same species. Breeds of dogs and cats are not different species, they are one that has been purposely bred to create a phenotype that can be replicated generation after generation, with a temperament and body structure that is reliably the same across the breed.

Yes, I also strongly support pure breed dogs for this exact reason, so I know the temperament and physical reliability of the dog will be exactly like the rest of the breed, and I get what I wanted. The dogs line has been selectively bred to maintain or improve on those standards.

I support dogs in shelters everyday, what I don't support are people purposely breeding pugs and toy poodles, and calling them designer dogs "puggles" or whatever they call them these days. THEY charge and arm and a leg, when it is truly NO different than all the mutts in the shelter. Mutts are loving adorable dogs, but for people that want a pure bred dog for reasons I already said, or personal taste, then they should be able to get that pure breed.

Pure breds cost a lot, because those small groups of people that devote their lives to these breeds put their entire reputation and heart into maintaining a breeds standards, testing for physical ailments, guaranteeing against any of the common problems, properly socializing and always working for the best of the breeds future. They do not exploit the dogs for money, they do it for the breed.

Then, there are puppy mills which are a totally different matter. :mad:


Now, back to what I was originally going to say....

These are different species of snakes, when you cross two different species, it is a hybrid. If someone were to sell me a brongersmai x curtus cross as a sumatran blood (100% brongersmai), that is plain fraud and misrepresentation of the animal.

I would have no use for the animal in my projects, it would just be a hybrid and continue the mutt bloods propagation.

People who realize that the differences between each blood species (and sometimes locality) are important are the driving force behind maintaining that integrity in captivity populations for those who want a pure bred species, which I hope is the majority of hobbyists.

If you do not understand the value of a snake that is exactly the species you believe it to be, then I hope someday you do understand why and embrace it. :gj:

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Thats cool everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I can absoloutly understand your point of view if breeding is your intention. Now here is my question to you How did different species of snakes come about? I mean they must have all evolved from one common ancestor somewhere down the line if you go back far enough I know its a stretch given my original post but Ill be honest I am bored and Im just looking for a debate Oh and in my original post I was not comparing one situation to the other I was just stating it was just another thing that bothered me

I don't think anyone has a problem with keeping hybrids as pets.....And I have no problem with breeding things like the "wall" and carpondros.....but there is no need to cross breed the 3 short tail species because while they are clearly defined species, they are so similar that there is no need to muddy up the gene pool.

As shown in this thread there are dealers who aren't even sure what species they are selling and that is why I only will do business with people who are educated about these snakes and strive to keep their lines as pure as possible.

I'm sure if you go back far enough all snakes have evolved from similar ancestors. They have clearly evolved into different species....why go backwards and mix everything back up? It's not about being elitist. Using the dog analogy...Humans created different breeds through selective breeding. Nature created different species of snakes, humans had nothing to do with it other than noting the differences and naming them.

If you chose to purchase a hybrid people aren't going to be like "Ewwww" but I don't expect to be looked at as a snob because I prefer not to deal with hybrids.

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Originally Posted by onebreitgirl

I don't think anyone has a problem with keeping hybrids as pets.....And I have no problem with breeding things like the "wall" and carpondros.....but there is no need to cross breed the 3 short tail species because while they are clearly defined species, they are so similar that there is no need to muddy up the gene pool.

As shown in this thread there are dealers who aren't even sure what species they are selling and that is why I only will do business with people who are educated about these snakes and strive to keep their lines as pure as possible.

I'm sure if you go back far enough all snakes have evolved from similar ancestors. They have clearly evolved into different species....why go backwards and mix everything back up? It's not about being elitist. Using the dog analogy...Humans created different breeds through selective breeding. Nature created different species of snakes, humans had nothing to do with it other than noting the differences and naming them.

If you chose to purchase a hybrid people aren't going to be like "Ewwww" but I don't expect to be looked at as a snob because I prefer not to deal with hybrids.

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I find it humorous that everyone believes I mean elitist as an insult It is not intended as such. All an elitist is is someone who demands the highest quality and refuse to settle for less

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Originally Posted by hardlucktattoo

Isnt it kind of elitist to think that one snake isnt as good as another? Especially if your only foundation of such is well I dont know exactly what it is so I guess its not worth anything. I am sorry its just one of those things that Irk me. Like people who pay ridiculous ammounts of money for "purebreed" dogs when there are plenty of loveable dogs dying in shelters everyday

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Wait? You didn't mean that to be insulting??

Comparing people who keep pure snakes to those who only purchase purebred dogs? I personally have a rescue mutt that I found on the side of the road and strongly advocate rescuing shelter dogs....So yeah I took offense to it.

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Originally Posted by hardlucktattoo

Now here is my question to you How did different species of snakes come about? I mean they must have all evolved from one common ancestor somewhere down the line if you go back far enough I know its a stretch given my original post but Ill be honest I am bored and Im just looking for a debate Oh and in my original post I was not comparing one situation to the other I was just stating it was just another thing that bothered me

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Do you think we are trying to create new species in this hobby? :confused:

I'm not looking to derail this thread for your boredom, if you would like to create a new one for debate, please do so. I think we've gone off topic in this thread far enough.