warning....

i found this on KS....

Posted by: meeker at Wed Feb 25 13:53:19 2009
I am writing this to let you all know about my experiences with the product “Cell-SOB Plus®”. I first saw Cell-SOB Plus® at a local reptile shop this past July noting that the package labeling listed its safe use for reptiles. After making an inquiry about the store’s experience with the substrate, I decided to try it. In the past, I have used paper towels, newspaper, and Care Fresh® with no problems.

I initially tried Cell-SOB Plus® because I liked its density. I felt it would hold heat better than Care Fresh®. To be honest, I also felt it had looked better in the cages than the latter substrate as well. I maintain well over 150 enclosures and decided to change over to the new substrate on a need-to-be cleaned basis. By late November, all of the cages were filled with Cell-SOB Plus®.

Unfortunately, by this time period, I also started to notice a larger-than-usual die off of animals. For the past 15 years, on average, I would lose about one to two animals per year (around 1% of my collection). Most of these deaths could be attributed to old age, egg retention, etc. By the time I was finished using Cell-SOB Plus®, I had lost close to 15 animals, mainly young and old animals. I=2 lost my first animal, a Gray-banded King snake in September. Since it was only one animal, I did not think the substrate was to blame. I started brunting animals during early November and by late December had a massive die off. Animals would die an excruciating death, often dying in agony with their mouths open. I concurrently noticed many animals have extremely worn eye spectacles and head scouts (see image).

At this time, I felt the substrate was causing problems and changed over all animals back to Care Fresh® or paper toweling and turned on the cage heaters. Animals with severe scale damage were placed on damp paper towels on heat. Although not as numerous, I still had a few animals die after being placed on a different substrate. These animals were for the most part pretty scuffed up from the Cell-SOB Plus®.



Three of my animals that died have been necropsy. I received the results from all three this past week. These animals died due to severe sepsis. Of particular concern is the final paragraph of one of the results reading: “ There are multi focal areas of acute inflammatory lesions such as within the sections of skin and liver. This suggests a possible antitoxin. Damage to the superficial epithelium may have permitted a bacterial infection and subsequent antitoxin.”

Furthermore, the lungs on one animal were filled with pertinacious fluid. Likewise, various organs and systems had this pertinacious fluid in them. Cultures run of the lungs a nd guts revealed three different strains of bacteria in the gut; fluids from the lungs did not culture anything. The animals that still seem to be afflicted are being treated with a round of Tremulously drugs; the latter was chosen by my veterinarian based on the culture results.

At first, the veterinarian felt that I had overdosed the animals with liquid Vitamin D. One of the animals had what appeared to be visceral gout in the mouth. Later, it was uncovered that what appeared to be gout was actually a severe bacterial infection. I do want to repeat that the only factor consistent with ALL animals dying was that their cage was lined with Cell-SOB Plus®. I feel that this product is not satisfactory for use with Gray-banded King snakes and Sonora Mountain King snakes; in fact, it may cause severe problems such as the ones I experienced in my collection.

I also want to point out that I have heard from several others that have experienced problems with their collections that were similar to mine. In addition, the reptile specialty store where I first saw the product no longer uses Cell-SOB Plus® in their cages.

Now, I don’t want to say that Cell-SOB Plus® is selling tainted substrate laden with bacteria. Rather, I think that the animals became severely abraded and stressed. In this situation, bacteria overwhelmed the animal and the snakes eventually died. Cell-SOB Plus® is too rough to be used with animals such as Gray-banded King snakes and Sonora Moue Tani King snakes. The tendency of these animals to burrow into the substrate may cause damage to the superficial epithelium allowing bacteria to invade the animal.

Finally, I did attempt to contact the company manufacturing Cell-SOB Plus®, once by email and once by telephone. Neither time did anyone but the secretary talk to me. I explained my situation to the secretary and she stated that this was the first time they ever heard of anyone having problems with Cell-SOB Plus®. I feel the latter is the company by-line for denial BECAUSE I know for a fact that at least two other people have contacted them regarding problems using Cell-SOB Plus®.

Thanks to all for reading this; any suggestions or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

just in case you've been considering the stuff...

i use to use this stuff not anymore...here's what my bag looks like.....
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...ders/003-2.jpg
and on the back it's says for reptiles....
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...ders/004-2.jpg

:O Wow!

Wow. That must have been devastating. O_o

Oh my, I'll stick to aspen & paper

Never lost an animal due to newspaper or paper towels.

isnt it Cell-SORB Plus®? and just to play the other side of the fence. maybe he let it stay soiled for longer then normal given the claims of the substrates amazing ability to absorb feces and kill odour? He could have even thought it was unsoiled if it does what it says and absorbs odour. Urates and Urin wouldn't smell causing them to be overlooked rather then cleaned, especially if the urates were able the drop to the bottom of the substrate like there add claims.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeffJ

isnt it Cell-SORB Plus®? and just to play the other side of the fence. maybe he let it stay soiled for longer then normal given the claims of the substrates amazing ability to absorb feces and kill odour? He could have even thought it was unsoiled if it does what it says and absorbs odour. Urates and Urin wouldn't smell causing them to be overlooked rather then cleaned, especially if the urates were able the drop to the bottom of the substrate like there add claims.

---

good point never looked at it that way...either way i'm done....:gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gixxerrobballs

good point never looked at it that way...either way i'm done....:gj:

---

all i got to say is good ol' aspen.

I'm really sorry you had to endure that. Good'ol paper for me.

wow... that is very sad.. but I'll stick with aspen as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeffJ

isnt it Cell-SORB Plus®? and just to play the other side of the fence. maybe he let it stay soiled for longer then normal given the claims of the substrates amazing ability to absorb feces and kill odour? He could have even thought it was unsoiled if it does what it says and absorbs odour. Urates and Urin wouldn't smell causing them to be overlooked rather then cleaned, especially if the urates were able the drop to the bottom of the substrate like there add claims.

---

But that doesn't account for the animals' scratched up faces. The original poster even said he/she doesn't blame the bacteria on the substrate, but that it's just too rough to use with these snakes, and the cuts let any bacteria in the animal. If you go to the original post on KS, the photo shows a pretty scuffed up snake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tikall

But that doesn't account for the animals' scratched up faces. The original poster even said he/she doesn't blame the bacteria on the substrate, but that it's just too rough to use with these snakes, and the cuts let any bacteria in the animal. If you go to the original post on KS, the photo shows a pretty scuffed up snake.

---

i do blame the bacteria because that's what caused the infection. bacterial cultures should not form in that magnitude in a clean enclosure. too rough or not. Scratches on animals face could have been caused by humidity issues or them thrashing from the pain. yes they could have let the bacteria in, but like i said to have bacteria form such an infectious culture like that husbandry issues were probably a prime factor. If this substrate causes wide spread reptile death the wouldn't have a business some one in the good ol' US of A is bound to sue, make a big stink and so on. Its like blaming leprosy on the carpeting in your house because it caused foot soars.

i take everything the person who claims this happened to them says with a grain of salt. i mean he takes the time to ad in the Registered trademark symbol but cannot spell the product he claims caused his wide spread death correctly. he miss spells it multiple times. it smells fishy to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeffJ

i do blame the bacteria because that's what caused the infection. bacterial cultures should not form in that magnitude in a clean enclosure. too rough or not. Scratches on animals face could have been caused by humidity issues or them thrashing from the pain. yes they could have let the bacteria in, but like i said to have bacteria form such an infectious culture like that husbandry issues were probably a prime factor. If this substrate causes wide spread reptile death the wouldn't have a business some one in the good ol' US of A is bound to sue, make a big stink and so on. Its like blaming leprosy on the carpeting in your house because it caused foot soars.

i take everything the person who claims this happened to them says with a grain of salt. i mean he takes the time to ad in the Registered trademark symbol but cannot spell the product he claims caused his wide spread death correctly. he miss spells it multiple times. it smells fishy to me.

---

Good points. I forgot the thrashing could cause the scuffed appearance, and I do agree the bacteria is the person's fault.

wanted to add that reptile bark is rough as well. so is the rock i had in my snakes enclosure.

like is aid the animal probably hurt its self due to thrashing from the painful infection and or husbandry issues.

i cannot find ANY other documented occurances of reptile death related to cell-sorb plus. if you can please direct me.

I would like to respond to some of the posts here to clarify some misconceptions stated by members. First of all, I originally posted on the “Alterna Forum” on kingsnake.com. My intent was to make people aware of problems using Cell-Sorb Plus® with their Sonora Mountain Kingsnakes and Gray-banded Kingsnakes. I want to point out in my post on kingsnake, I spelled the name of the product correctly. I had nothing to do whatsoever with posting here….the misspellings are not mine, but whoever posted. Furthermore, I don’t think I would have had problems within a month or so of using this product because “Urates and Urin” built up in the enclosure. Why? Because the time period was for the greater part during brumation, when limited amounts of wastes were produced by these animals.

Some other misconceptions/opinions I would like to address is that I do think bacteria caused my problems; however, bacteria are present everywhere and healthy snakes are able to combat infection. I feel that the Cell-Sorb Plus® stressed out my animals so that bacteria could more easily infect the snakes. I don’t feel that I am “blaming leprosy on the carpeting in your house because it caused foot soars.” Also, as far as the scratched up faces, the snake depicted in the image was not photographed after death. The animal is still alive and never once did I observe it trashing around in its enclosure in pain. In fact, once removed from Cell-Sorb Plus®, the condition of the animal improved dramatically.

Also, if you check out Captive Bred Forum, someone else posted having similar problems with Cell-Sorb Plus®. I am only posting about this product as a cautionary note. I have no intentions other than to let snake keepers know of the problems I had with the product using it with medium-sized colubrid snakes.

Finally, whoever posted for me here on the Ball Python forum….thank you. I truly appreciate it. If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to ask. G. Merker

And your sure you didnt just contaminate your setup with a sickness from a expo or something. still does not make any sense. I mean you cant really blame the substrate unless you had a necropsy, and still it would be questionable if you could point the finger.

Unless that substrate its self was exposed to something. There is more then just the substrate thats a connection. just handling them and touching your snake utilities you would be spreading any bacteria or infection. you your self could have had only one sick snake and effectively passed it on to the other just by going through your every day routine.

anyways im still positive there is more to it then illness caused by stress via substrate. It may possible have been a factor but it couldn't have been the "straw that boke the camels back"

funny thing is, some of those symptoms you describe sounds like IBD, but as far as i know it cannot affect colubrids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gmerker

I would like to respond to some of the posts here to clarify some misconceptions stated by members. First of all, I originally posted on the “Alterna Forum” on kingsnake.com. My intent was to make people aware of problems using Cell-Sorb Plus® with their Sonora Mountain Kingsnakes and Gray-banded Kingsnakes. I want to point out in my post on kingsnake, I spelled the name of the product correctly. I had nothing to do whatsoever with posting here….the misspellings are not mine, but whoever posted. Furthermore, I don’t think I would have had problems within a month or so of using this product because “Urates and Urin” built up in the enclosure. Why? Because the time period was for the greater part during brumation, when limited amounts of wastes were produced by these animals.

Some other misconceptions/opinions I would like to address is that I do think bacteria caused my problems; however, bacteria are present everywhere and healthy snakes are able to combat infection. I feel that the Cell-Sorb Plus® stressed out my animals so that bacteria could more easily infect the snakes. I don’t feel that I am “blaming leprosy on the carpeting in your house because it caused foot soars.” Also, as far as the scratched up faces, the snake depicted in the image was not photographed after death. The animal is still alive and never once did I observe it trashing around in its enclosure in pain. In fact, once removed from Cell-Sorb Plus®, the condition of the animal improved dramatically.

Also, if you check out Captive Bred Forum, someone else posted having similar problems with Cell-Sorb Plus®. I am only posting about this product as a cautionary note. I have no intentions other than to let snake keepers know of the problems I had with the product using it with medium-sized colubrid snakes.

Finally, whoever posted for me here on the Ball Python forum….thank you. I truly appreciate it. If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to ask. G. Merker

---

what happened with the spelling was my fault...when i hit the spell check buttom it changed the spelling sorry about that and thanks for the warning i didn't want to take a chance after seeing that post....:gj:

Thanks for the responses again...Jeff....I had not one necropsy performed, but THREE....I also ran cultures on the gut contents and lung contents of one animal....you are correct...I can't really point the blame 100% positively on Cell-Sorb Plus®; however, I am almost certain it had something to do with the demise of 13 animals. The necropsies pointed towards something going on with the animals in terms of micro abrasions on the skin. One vet surmised that this allowed bacteria to invade the animal.

My point is if you run across this substrate, you may want to think twice about using it with medium-sized snakes.

Has anyone tried contacting Greg Graziani about this? I think it was last year that he made a post about it saying that he was using it exclusively in his facility. I'd be curious if he's run into any problems keeping hundreds of ball pythons on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeffJ

If this substrate causes wide spread reptile death the wouldn't have a business some one in the good ol' US of A is bound to sue, make a big stink and so on.

---

Yet products like calcisand, and walnut shell bedding are still on the market. There are lots of products out there that are unsafe for the animals they are used on. How long was, oh wait still is CEDAR SHAVINGS on the market even though it is proven to cause respritory distress in hamsters, gerbils, rats, mice, rabbits, ferrets, guinea pigs, dogs and humans.. yet its sold as bedding for what? oh yeah all of those (except humans, we just breath it when we put it in our animals cages)