I assume no one here thinks this is a good enough reason to euthanize a snake?

I belong to a forum for pet rat owners. One of the members has decided she wants to dedicate her time to banning live feeding in this country. As you might imagine the thread has now deteriorated to a large number of people saying that if a snake will not take p/k or f/k than it must be so badly acclimated to captivity that it should be euthanised or forcefed the remainder of its life.

Myself and another member were able to provide links to sites explaining how stressful force feeding is so I feel satisfied on that point. But for the euthanasia issue, does anyone on this forum feel this way? I'm guessing the answer is 'no'. I would like to respond to the thread with a logical argument why some snakes will only take live. Just saying they are 'picky' isn't exactly a well thought out rebuttal. Does anyone have any links with something more detailed or have any theories? Is there a way to explain to non-herp people thy that even if you warm up the prey and do the zombie dance the snake doesn't recognize it as food?

Thanks much for any help.

Are you gonna euthanize me for not eating meatloaf? The banning of feeding live rodents is absolutely absurd (no offense, UK people).

I wish we had a smaller government, then there wouldn't be committees to even entertain ideas like this.

-JonV

Hi,

It's not illegal to feed live in the UK.

It is illegal to sell any mammal under 6 weeks of age however - so that poses a bit of a challenge if your snake isn't big enough to eat a 6 week old mouse.


dr del

I doubt if you can influence such a person. I have no advice to offer you. But I don't think that she will influence anyone to kill their live-feeding snakes either.

I have a couple of snakes who will only eat live, and will not eat f/t. Do I let them starve until they will take f/t? I think not, That whole banning of live feeding is absolutely ridiculous, but that's just my opinion

Well, then any rat that eats one of her babies that doesn't make it should be euthanized for cannibalism.

The f/t vs. live argument will always exist.

I understand the live vs pk argument will be around. The thread in question actually has managed to stay reasonably civil and most people are at least listening to well thought out arguments. I was just looking for an actual way to explain to someone who doesn't own snakes why that snake can't recognize dead prey as prey and why that same snake should not be assumed to be doing poorly in captivity.

I'm a vegan and I did suggest that anyone who ate a hamburger should be euthanized as well but oddly enough that idea didn't go over very well :)

You could tell her that some snakes are visually stimulated and that without movement by potential prey there is ZERO feeding response which eventually means a dead snake.

You could then explain no matter how many incantations, proclamations, dances with and without native drums (don't specify which type of native) concoctions, potions ointments and general serious wishing of the nature that were one's face to freeze while attempting would actually scare one's own mother, you simply cannot make a dead rat move which therefore leads you back to feeding live and keeping your duties and responsibilities to your snake fulfilled to the utmost of your ability (feel free to downplay ability and alude to luck playing a large part in not only your intellect but success in snake feeding; trust me, it helps if they think they're smarter than you are) which is the least you can do for your scaly friend.

Isn't it?

End it just like that and you should at least have the pleasure of seeing her, or anyone else who followed it, trip on their own logic.

The next step is her, or whomever hears and follows, getting mad at you for said trippage, but such is life.

Around me anyway.

Good luck.

Do they euthanize female rats that eat their own young? Just wondering.

People are funny. Maybe you should try to sidetrack them with a "let take rat poison off the market"

I find it interesting how some people value certain lifeforms more than others..... Mostly to suit there own selfish ideas.

My ball won't eat frozen right now without live he would have been sick. snakes kill there pray quickly. BTW how do snakes eat in the wild? CO2 chambers are rare in the wild LOL!

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Originally Posted by cobweb2000

I'm a vegan and I did suggest that anyone who ate a hamburger should be euthanized as well but oddly enough that idea didn't go over very well :)

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lol.

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Originally Posted by cobweb2000

I understand the live vs pk argument will be around. The thread in question actually has managed to stay reasonably civil and most people are at least listening to well thought out arguments. I was just looking for an actual way to explain to someone who doesn't own snakes why that snake can't recognize dead prey as prey and why that same snake should not be assumed to be doing poorly in captivity.

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There's really no way to explain it to them and have them accept it if they have already made up their mind about it.

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

I wish we had a smaller government, then there wouldn't be committees to even entertain ideas like this.

-JonV

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Then again...if the government is too small, you have one guy going, "Hey, that sounds like a good idea! Make it so!" :P

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Originally Posted by cobweb2000

I understand the live vs pk argument will be around. The thread in question actually has managed to stay reasonably civil and most people are at least listening to well thought out arguments. I was just looking for an actual way to explain to someone who doesn't own snakes why that snake can't recognize dead prey as prey and why that same snake should not be assumed to be doing poorly in captivity.

I'm a vegan and I did suggest that anyone who ate a hamburger should be euthanized as well but oddly enough that idea didn't go over very well :)

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Well well well, I have a soon to be daughter in law who is a vegan (God love her), and I've learned to cook all the vegan meals, I even bake her vegan cakes.

I am a meat eater, but I will do vegan when she cooks.

I hunt deer, turkey, elk and I fish, I also eat what I kill.

Snakes hunt their prey in the wild for the most part, so I let them hunt in captivity, it's what they do.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Then again...if the government is too small, you have one guy going, "Hey, that sounds like a good idea! Make it so!" :P

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im all for a small goverment, then when they start making absurd suggestions like this we could just kick there *** and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by cobweb2000

I'm a vegan and I did suggest that anyone who ate a hamburger should be euthanized as well but oddly enough that idea didn't go over very well :)

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I've often thought that vegetarians and vegans should be fair game for cannibalism :D lol

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I've often thought that vegetarians and vegans should be fair game for cannibalism :D lol

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LOL :colbert: :banana: :banana: no no I like vegans

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Originally Posted by llovelace

LOL :colbert: :banana: :banana: no no I like vegans

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that's my point, so do I! ;)

yum yum.

Look it's a rat forum and they are "rat people". Some of them will never get that a rodents natural role is to be prey for something else. Some of them seem to think that their rat is a small person inside some rat fur. I've been to a few rat forums and simply do not go back LOL. Not all of them are odd but enough were. :rolleyes:

Some of them believe that we "snake people" are evil, rat hating people. They don't get that most of us respect the prey animal highly, that if we breed our own feeders we treat them very well and work to ensure that when they meet their natural end as a prey animal, they do so with the minimum of muss and fuss. Heck I spend more hours per week caring for the rat colony than I do for the snakes that eat them.

You may change a few minds over there, but there's some that won't ever be able to see past their own narrow view of things. For me, in their love of their pet is a distinct lack of respect for nature and the role of her creatures.

Very well said Jo. :gj:

Bruce

That is preposterous. Snakes do not eat p/k or f/t in the wild, but we expect them to do so in captivity, and if they don’t then we should kill them??? I don’t get it. I feed all of my ball pythons live prey and have no qualms about doing so. The people who think that it is alright to kill a snake because it will not eat anything other than live prey should not own snakes. Why do they not give them to responsible owners instead of killing them?

I have to agree with the others it is silly. Why do rats and mice have such LARGE litters? Could it be that the pinkies are "popcorn" for almost any small prey animal? They are ment to be eaten. I enjoy my rats. My breeding plan is centered to get large, sweet tempered rats. I just gave away 3 babies to a pet home. The little girl was extactic to get them. But the reason I breed is to feed all my snakes. I just killed a pig so I could have ham... maybe someone should euthonised me.......

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Originally Posted by akaangela

I have to agree with the others it is silly. Why do rats and mice have such LARGE litters? Could it be that the pinkies are "popcorn" for almost any small prey animal? They are ment to be eaten. I enjoy my rats. My breeding plan is centered to get large, sweet tempered rats. I just gave away 3 babies to a pet home. The little girl was extactic to get them. But the reason I breed is to feed all my snakes. I just killed a pig so I could have ham... maybe someone should euthonised me.......

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I wouldn't euthanize you for killing the pig, but I might try and blackmail you for some bacon. ^_^ BACON! (My boyfriend's scream of excitement!)

No one on that site is denying rats are food, thier issue is that they are assuming that feeding live is inherently cruel due to the method of death and that a snake that will only eat live is so badly acclimated to captivity that it would be kinder to euthanize it.

But you are correct, all I did was give myself a headache trying to speak to these people. My moment of masochism is over so they are on their own.

So snakes in the wild have pre killed prey? no they eat live for the most part

It is a ridiculous argument, but I understand it. One of the reasons that I do not hang on rat forums...

All the snakes I have that are live feeders (more than are FT feeders) were all CB.

I belong to another forum, snake forum nonetheless, where the FT feeders are SO vocal and adamant that ALL snakes, regardless of origin can eat FT that they completely monopolize the forum and hijack any thread regarding feeding.

It is tedious and cyclical to argue with them.

One particularly vocal member, all of 19, with 3 snakes (all BCIs)... yeah, nuff said.

I have snakes that would not eat if they were not given live. They are perfectly docile pet snakes. But they are snakes and they need 3 things to recognize a prey item... heat, movement, and scent.

Bruce

For this argument, we cannot compare captivity to the wild. In the wild, the prey has a chance to fight back, which we as snake owners do not allow in captivity. Also, in the wild, the prey has a chance to run away. In captivity, we put the prey in snakes enclosure, where have no chance of escape.

Also, for this argument, we must not compare how human beings eat other animals, and that snakes eat other animals. When it comes to human beings being vegans or vegetarians, its a another debate in itself. Lets talk about the problem at hand.

However one argument is always valid; some animals eat other animals. This is nature. On Earth, many animals are carnivores, which means these animals consume other animals in order to survive. Carnivores are higher in the food chain, but this does not make them superior or evil in caparison with herbivores or omnivores, because the food chain is a complete cycle and will fall apart if any part of the cycle is missing.

I understand that people from rat forums, and people from snake forums will have a different bias. But we must look at the whole picture. Yes, snakes eat rodents. But the fact is, some snakes also eat snakes, and some rodent also eat rodents. No animal can be blamed or labeled for eating another animal.

Snakes are hunters by nature. Snakes are not scavengers. In captivity, we are altering their nature by feeding them pre-killed or frozen/thawed. But we can only alter their nature so much, such that some snakes will only eat live. This is a less favorable behavior in the eyes of some keepers, but this does not mean they should be euthanized.

I do encourage not feeding live. But banning it completely is unreasonable and impossible. There are alternatives, which are being carried out now. Some pet shops do not sell live rodents as feeders, but sell frozen/thawed. Many keepers who breed their own feeders, euthanize them at home. Maybe with generations after generations of breeding snakes that are tolerant of only eating pre-killed or frozen-thawed, snakes who only eat live can be reduced.

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Originally Posted by brainman1000

Well, then any rat that eats one of her babies that doesn't make it should be euthanized for cannibalism.

The f/t vs. live argument will always exist.

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Good one! I second that! I've got plenty of bad rat mommies that I don't kill!