Economics of Breeding Questions

I'm rather new to the reptile world (Got my Cal King only about 2 months ago) and as such I know very little about breeding, but I had a few basic questions about the actual economics of breeding.

How did most of you get started with breeding? What is the typical start-up cost of a breeding project for a new breeder? What sort of day jobs do breeders have? How does one start out as a breeder - which is to say where do you start selling at? How much money does one actually make with breeding that is profit (I understand this varies based on how much one spends on certain animals, but still general answers would be greatly appreciated)? Is this more of a hobby than an actual money-making process for most breeders?

I'm quickly falling in love with reptiles in general, and I doubt I would ever be able to afford breeding, however I'm fascinated by people that do breed. Having an entire rack full of reptiles would be so amazing, not to mention those who have entire rooms dedicated to breeding programs!

I know I jumped around a lot in this post, but hopefully I got my point across well enough. I just don't know hardly anything about breeding reptiles, and I would really appreciate how breeders manage it!

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Originally Posted by fallupinreverse

I'm rather new to the reptile world (Got my Cal King only about 2 months ago) and as such I know very little about breeding, but I had a few basic questions about the actual economics of breeding.

How did most of you get started with breeding? Got addicted to cool stuff like bees and couldn't afford them so started with the ingredients became addicted and now just want one of everything, including stuff that hasn't been bred yet!What is the typical start-up cost of a breeding project for a new breeder? I started out with a few hundred dollars for each snake i could afford at the time and now have about ten grand invested over the last couple years, this includes making a room in my house just for snakes, racks, humidifiers, heating/cooling. (Dont even wanna think about the food costs for everything either!)What sort of day jobs do breeders have? I do accounting during the day and bartend at nightHow does one start out as a breeder - which is to say where do you start selling at? Started selling to friends, have hit on local classifieds, website, and eventually will do shows.How much money does one actually make with breeding that is profit (I understand this varies based on how much one spends on certain animals, but still general answers would be greatly appreciated)? Cant answer this cuz i definately haven't seen profits and sure I wont for quite some time, its more for the pleasure it gives me to see a lock or get eggs or see what hatchesIs this more of a hobby than an actual money-making process for most breeders? For myself definately a hobby, its way to much work just to hope for money.

I'm quickly falling in love with reptiles in general, and I doubt I would ever be able to afford breeding, however I'm fascinated by people that do breed. Having an entire rack full of reptiles would be so amazing, not to mention those who have entire rooms dedicated to breeding programs!

I know I jumped around a lot in this post, but hopefully I got my point across well enough. I just don't know hardly anything about breeding reptiles, and I would really appreciate how breeders manage it!

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start up cost depends on what you want to produce
you can start with normals or hets to save money
you can post the babies on the internet, newspaper, ect.
profit, whats that? lol
don't think you will get rich raising snakes those days are over
i haven't produced any babies yet, waiting til next year

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Originally Posted by fallupinreverse

I'm rather new to the reptile world (Got my Cal King only about 2 months ago) and as such I know very little about breeding, but I had a few basic questions about the actual economics of breeding.

How did most of you get started with breeding? What is the typical start-up cost of a breeding project for a new breeder? What sort of day jobs do breeders have? How does one start out as a breeder - which is to say where do you start selling at? How much money does one actually make with breeding that is profit (I understand this varies based on how much one spends on certain animals, but still general answers would be greatly appreciated)? Is this more of a hobby than an actual money-making process for most breeders?

I'm quickly falling in love with reptiles in general, and I doubt I would ever be able to afford breeding, however I'm fascinated by people that do breed. Having an entire rack full of reptiles would be so amazing, not to mention those who have entire rooms dedicated to breeding programs!

I know I jumped around a lot in this post, but hopefully I got my point across well enough. I just don't know hardly anything about breeding reptiles, and I would really appreciate how breeders manage it!

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Let me look through my reciepts here. Hmmm... A little over $17,000.00 invested last year between snake purchases, rats, racks, rat food, water bowls, T-stats, incubator, blah blah blah. :oops:

Lets look in the incubator right now, nope still empty. Lets look through the sales reciepts we have to date. hmmm... Yea about $95.00 worth of rats sold, nope no snakes. :(

But we have one girl glowing and I think at least two more girls will go this year at least. 18 babies this year if we are lucky and we will hold back about half of those. Do to what we had ready to go this year we will be lucky to average $200.00 per baby we sell. Thats 9 times 200 for $1800.00. So we will be lucky to make back ten percent of last years losses. :rolleye2:

On the bright side we do have a lot of nice looking ball pythons and just got two blood pythons! :gj:

I love trying to be a breeder! :banana:

I probably have around 10G invested in just the snakes.
Its not so much about the money, although I hope that the snakes eventually pay for themselves....:rofl:
I am in it as a hobby, and the feeling you get when your young males lock up for the first time or you get struck at by a normally calm and cool female b/c she is on eggs is amazing.
Then when the eggs finally pip after months and months of thinking, hoping, planning, and working for it, well you feel like a proud parent lol.

My advice if you want to start breeding is to spend the money on a very few rare morphs and focus on supplying something special; Otherwise you'll want a snakeroom and soon you will be distracted by other morphs and soon spend all of your time cleaning and feeding your collection instead of simply enjoying and handling your snakes.
That is probably a hard line to walk; I know I didn't do so well- I have 40-50 snakes and counting

Well this answers my main question pretty well, and that was just wondering how much most have invested in it, and how much it takes to invest.

I'm currently a college student and there is no way I'll be able to afford breeding anytime soon. It seems like it'd be a lot of fun, but wayyyy more money than I can handle lol!

I still would love to hear about more breeder's stories though, so keep on posting please!

I think you get the idea.Its a Hobby,Not a buisness.If you enjoy sharing your house with these animals then your on the right track.Most Breeders around are in this hobby because they enjoy reptiles.Just do research,take good care of your snake and get another when you have the resources/believe you are ready! Just remember the road to breeding always starts with one Snake....;)

You could start out with a pair of less expensive snakes and play with it while in college. I can't imagine you having room to house 30+ snakes and their food at this time. 2 to 3 to play with might be something that would allow you to learn for now. Slowly add a couple more after you get out of college and over a long period of time you might build a substantial breeding project. Or if after you graduate Med school, do your internship, pay off your mountain of college debt, don't get married or have kids, then you can afford lots of snakes! :gj: Then again if I wasn't married who would handle taking care of the snakes and rats after long grueling 10 hour days of work and such? Then what about those business trips that keep me away from home for a couple nights at a time! :O

So far you have happened to get answers from people who have invested a lot of money. You do not have to do that to breed snakes. You could start with a normal female and a pastel male and get both of them for under $100 if you bargain hunt (like go to a local show). Or invest just a little more and get a female that will be ready to breed next year if you are in a hurry.

You'll still need to spend more on things like t-stats and enclosures and of course food for the snakes, but all of this can be done relatively economically as well. When your female is big enough to breed, make an incubator out of a styrofoam cooler.

I haven't really done the math, but a quick off the top of my head estimate is that if you start out with a pair of '08 hatchlings, you could probably spend less than $500 spread out over time, and have eggs hatching in '11. Most people put quite a bit more than that into their hobbies (or just going out to movies...), so anyone who really wants to produce some baby snakes should be able to afford it on a small scale.

This is assuming a pretty bare bones operation, and also if you have only one pair there is no guarantee you'll get any eggs at all, but my main point is to illustrate that it can be done quite a bit cheaper than spending thousands of dollars.

EDIT: One more thing is that I don't think you'd make any money doing it this way. But if you hatch a few pastel hatchlings and sell them, that money could help you invest in a few more snakes. Eventually you could build up enough to become profitable (assuming the snake market stays strong enough for anyone to be profitable), without ever having to lay out a big chunk of cash up front.

I am not a breeder, but I love these amazing snakes. I do have 2 gravid females, and a few others that won't be ready for breeding for another 1-3 years.
My view is that when you want to breed focus on the ones you like the most. As for me I love albinos the most, others are cool, but those are my passion. So far I have spent around $700 on the snakes/enclosures/heating, that does not include all the time and money that is going into breeding feeders, and what has to be done with feeder overstock, or vet bills.
Although both of my gravid females are normal, and the daddies where normals, I am still totaly excited to see those little heads pop out of the eggs.
If you want to breed as a hobby that is great, but as an investment, you can expect quite a few years till you see any money back compared to what you spend.
I'm hopeing that in 3+ years two of the babies I have will prove out to be het for snow. When you are waiting for those babies its hard, but compared to the 9 months of waiting for little people its not that bad.

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Originally Posted by fallupinreverse

How did most of you get started with breeding?

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My science teacher from 6th grade got me interested in snakes - I got one that year and when I was in the 8th grade, we bred mine to two of his. I was hooked since.

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What is the typical start-up cost of a breeding project for a new breeder?

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Depends. You could get a pair of proven normals for less than $200 and be breeding this year. Plus housing, incubator, food, etc. You could get a breedable pair, proper housing, food for a year, for less than $500. Now if you want to make fancier things it will cost more - at least the animals will.

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What sort of day jobs do breeders have?

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I'm in my last year of grad school. I teach an upper division biochemistry lab, as well as tutor.

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How does one start out as a breeder - which is to say where do you start selling at?

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I started selling locally to the mom & pop type shops before petsmart and petco invaded my home town. Once they were in I did it by word of mouth for several years, and recently have gotten to selling on the internet.

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How much money does one actually make with breeding that is profit (I understand this varies based on how much one spends on certain animals, but still general answers would be greatly appreciated)?

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Plan on not making any profit and losing money. For me all my money goes back into the hobby. i.e. towards food or purchase of new snakes.

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Is this more of a hobby than an actual money-making process for most breeders?

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Yup. The vast majority of people don't make money - they do it because they love it. I think many people, especially with the high prices of bps, think they'll make some quick money but are in for a rude awakening. You have to invest time and money into them. Snakes don't always breed, eggs don't always hatch, some die, etc. Nothing is guaranteed.

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How did most of you get started with breeding?

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I got started when I got my first het pied male.. LOL it got me hooked

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What is the typical start-up cost of a breeding project for a new breeder?

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This depends on what you looking to produce. If your looking to produce Pastels then your looking at far less than if your looking to produce like Super stripes.

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What sort of day jobs do breeders have?

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Some are full time breeders.. Most do regular every day jobs

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How does one start out as a breeder - which is to say where do you start selling at?

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To sale takes knowing how to market the animals for internet sales, but also being able to do some shows. Doing shows lends its self need professional display and sales tactics

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How much money does one actually make with breeding that is profit (I understand this varies based on how much one spends on certain animals, but still general answers would be greatly appreciated)?

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Zero so far. Even thought I've sold everything I produced this year. The need for new animals, vet bills, Rat food, more rat racks, more snake racks easily does away with any "profit"

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Is this more of a hobby than an actual money-making process for most breeders?

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It is both for many.. For me it started as a hobby but has advanced into a growing business.

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Having an entire rack full of reptiles would be so amazing, not to mention those who have entire rooms dedicated to breeding programs!

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Having a reptile building or room really makes things feel less like a hobby..At least it does for me.

The more money you want to make, the more money you have to invest. You will make the best profit off of rare animals / morphs / combos. It is also a good idea to invest in a few different projects. You should never put your eggs in one basket. Simple recessive morphs seem to be a more stable investment than codominant morphs.

I started breeding because I love snakes. I have always been fascinated with them. Personally, I would not breed them if I could not make money doing so. It is a lot of work. For example, I have to breed my own rodents to feed my snakes. Although rodents are not hard to take care of, they take time. The more snakes you have, the more rodents you have to breed.

I suggest investing $10k or more, but you do not have to invest this much to be a breeder.

One downfall to breeding is that normals do not sell well. I had to sell quite a few last season for approximately $10 - $20 each. You have to realize that you have to take care of these animals until they are sold. You also should wait until they have eaten at least three times before offering them for sell. This can take up to a month or more. IMO, it is not worth the time for $10. For this reason, I suggest investing in morphs that when bred will not produce any or many normals; for example, simple recessive morphs, or dominant forms of codominant morphs (supers.)

All of the above is just my opinion, and I hope that it helps.

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How did most of you get started with breeding?

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With one snake that turned up being a girl :) Then... the magic happened.

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What is the typical start-up cost of a breeding project for a new breeder?

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Depends on the breeding project in mind.

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What sort of day jobs do breeders have?

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I'm a research chemist/scientist.

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How does one start out as a breeder - which is to say where do you start selling at?

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Online, locally in advertisements, shows.. depends on how much you have to offer.

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How much money does one actually make with breeding that is profit (I understand this varies based on how much one spends on certain animals, but still general answers would be greatly appreciated)? Is this more of a hobby than an actual money-making process for most breeders?

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Depends again on the amount you put into it.

I started by mistake, I was cleaning a few corn snake tanks and just happened to put a male with a female without knowing it. Few months later I had some little corns so I kept a couple and sold the rest to a pet store and it happened to pay for the parents and their setups.....so I did it a few more times to buy my first ball python morphs and a few books on snakes.

I would say just take your time and learn as much as you can before attemping it. It's not rocket science like some people may think but it's not easy either lol. It can be nerve racking to say the least lol.

There are folks who breed for a living, there are folks who breed for the hobby and finaly there are folks who are on the fence wondering if they should venture down the business end of the hobby.

I enjoy my snakes. Its a hobby for me right now. I keep operating overhead in mind more so than what I'm about to spend on the next addition. I just read fantastic member posts that range from one end of the spectrum to the other. If you have a vision and your priorities are realistic and in check then you can have a blast with ball pythons without having to take out a second mortgage :P.

These are all great responses and I'm sure you can get some idea of what you're looking for as far as answers combined in all of them.

Basically, if you want to make big, you have to invest big. And also have to consider the economy and where it's going. I know that lots of breeders didn't even attend the National Reptile Expo in Daytona this past August because of various reasons and most related to financial issues (not worth paying the tables vs how much you would sell, and etc).

Personally, I'm starting this as a hobby. I fell in love with boas due to my ex not caring for his colombian rtb so I "rescued" him. I can't see myself housing tons of boas at the current moment, but do want to learn more about snakes and breed them. I have recently got the ball python "itch" as I just acquired my first one. My first is a female pastel and then I have a big big list of others that I will acquire at a slow pace. I plan to collect different normals/morphs and breed as a hobby and possibly selling some one day later. I don't have the $10K to invest in a large collection so I'm slowly investing and going to get the experience first.

Now some of you on here also know me from various other sites and do know that I have a plan for all of this as well. I'm working on ball pythons now and will move to boas then burmese pythons and then to reticulated pythons. That is my goal but it will always be more of a hobby/learning experience for me. Unless I win the lotto (yeah right lmao).

Anywho, hope all of the other responses and mine have given you more insight to your questions ;)

Wow, all of these stories are great to hear! I'm loving how many of you are willing to tell your stories. This is all very fascinating to me. Perhaps one day in the distant future I will have enough money to breed as a hobby. I think it would be absolutely amazing to pick up!

I'd also be interesting in more specific stories about how much actual loss there is in some of your experiences. I understand now that profit is not very likely at all, but when factoring in selling the snakes and all of that, how much are your actual "losses" generally? Obviously many people choose to reinvest that money towards new snakes, but you get the general idea hopefully.

Thanks again for all the feedback, and please keep it up! You guys are great :)

Death = Losses

That's all there is to it.

If you buy an $X animal and it dies, you are SOL.

In a nutshell, a sold boid = reinvest in current stock.:)

How did most of you get started with breeding? I started out by just getting snakes I liked. I had my snow corn, then almost a year later, I got two ball pythons with no true intention of breeding, but once I started looking into all the morphs, I started to get interested.

What is the typical start-up cost of a breeding project for a new breeder? It can be anything. My first pair of ball pythons were a 100% het pied male and a normal female. Total cost for the pair $125. Then you had the cost of the tanks we kept them in. Few months later, we invested in our first morph, a pair of pastels, totaling around $325. I eventually got rack systems and totaled, my snakes (including the corns and boa) and enclosures (if you don't count the tanks and only the racks) is valued at almost $3000. This does not include the cost of driving to get the snakes, shipping for the racks, water bowls, heat lamps, hides, bedding, or the monthly cost of feeding everyone.

What sort of day jobs do breeders have? I work in retail as a bookseller. I'm hoping to get a 2nd job.

How does one start out as a breeder - which is to say where do you start selling at? I haven't sold anything yet, but I plan on selling online and at shows.

How much money does one actually make with breeding that is profit (I understand this varies based on how much one spends on certain animals, but still general answers would be greatly appreciated)? I hope to break even. I just want my hobby to pay for itself so that my husband isn't wondering where all of our money is going. As long as I break even or come close to breaking even, I'll be happy financially.

Is this more of a hobby than an actual money-making process for most breeders? It depends on the breeder. Some are in it for just the money, and some are in it for the snakes. Some are somewhere between. I am personally in this as a hobby. I love my snakes as pets first and breeders second.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

How much money does one actually make with breeding that is profit (I understand this varies based on how much one spends on certain animals, but still general answers would be greatly appreciated)? I hope to break even. I just want my hobby to pay for itself so that my husband isn't wondering where all of our money is going. As long as I break even or come close to breaking even, I'll be happy financially.

Is this more of a hobby than an actual money-making process for most breeders? It depends on the breeder. Some are in it for just the money, and some are in it for the snakes. Some are somewhere between. I am personally in this as a hobby. I love my snakes as pets first and breeders second.

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That is exactly the approach I have taken as well. Very well put.:gj::gj:

I have to agree that for the majority of breeders this is a hobby and not a business. The reason is because most(if not all) morphs get sold to other breeders, and not as single pets.

This means that money and snakes are just exchanging hands between breeders, and there is no financial gain in the system without most breeders being hobbyists with other jobs they work to make the real dough to spend on snakes

This also means that most breeders at this point in time have not seen profit on snake investment. That is NOT to say that they won't see profit years down the road, hopefully as the hobby grows with more and more people, those who are in it the longest see a return on their initial investments, financially supported by newcomers to the hobby who in turn spend money on new snakes.

Or at least that's my understanding of the economics of the ball python morph business in North America.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

How much money does one actually make with breeding that is profit (I understand this varies based on how much one spends on certain animals, but still general answers would be greatly appreciated)? I hope to break even. I just want my hobby to pay for itself so that my husband isn't wondering where all of our money is going. As long as I break even or come close to breaking even, I'll be happy financially.

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That's the goal for just about everyone except the top 5%? 1%? of breeders(by volume/quality of snakes).

Here's some more personal finances and economics just to give you an idea: I'm just beginning to be on my way to making my crested geckos pay for themselves. I doubt I'll see much profit, but after crunching the numbers and assuming I can find buyers, there will be some money left over to put back into the reptile hobby for new animals/cages. I will however only have two breeding pairs of cresties, so not likely a ton of money.

They are cheaper to feed than ball pythons and don't need expensive heat sources. My total investment for one pair of adults and another pair who will be able to breed later this year, three cages, and food to date(with enough to last another few months) has been under $600. That's probably a good estimate for my initial investment.

Lets say I spend $100 a year on food(haven't actually calculated my food cost per month yet, but it looks like I'll buy between $50-100 worth of food this year, I'm just guessing on the high end) and another $200 of misc. spending. These are VERY rough numbers and I'll have a better idea 12 months from now what my yearly spending looks like.

If both pairs produce 5 good clutches(2 eggs per clutch) each season, good potential for more clutches, that's 20 geckos a season to sell.

At $40 a gecko I'd bring in $800 a season. Could very well be able to sell the geckos for more, however.

Even if my yearly expenses double due to added costs of taking care of hatchlings, that's still under the value of selling 20 geckos a year at $40 a piece. I'd eventually make back my initial investment and start making a profit.

Of course this doesn't factor in holdbacks, buying new geckos, likelihood of expensive vet bills if something goes wrong, among other possible expenses.

I don't care about making a profit, I just enjoy having these pets and breeding them and taking care of hatchlings to find new homes for. If I'm able to get someone to pay me a bit of money here and there for a new scaly friend, that would be fantastic. If I do it well enough to break even and have the hobby pay for itself, even including acquiring new animals, that would just be heaven.

The tricky part with ball pythons is that they are more expensive on initial investments, don't produce as many animals as crested geckos do, and are quite possibly more time consuming once you are raising enough snakes that you might want to raise your own feeders as well.

I'm raising up one 08 female normal with plans to breed her to a nice co-dom morph probably during winter '10. If that goes well I might expand to more BPs. I don't ever expect to see a return on snake costs, I just enjoy them so much!