Salmon and Orangetail

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimiSnakes

Visual? As in pure BCC Hypos? No. The "salmon" trait is a name given to the "hypos" produced by Rich and John at Salmonboa.com. That's all they are, Salmon=Hypos. The Salmon trait is just a name given to the Hypos that stem from Panamanian bloodlines. Hypos (or Orangetails) is the name given to most Hypos from Central American bloodlines. 99.9% of the Hypos or Salmons you see marketed are mixed from on of those two bloodlines. They are outcrossed enough to be legitimately given the name Colombian, but they are not 100% pure Colombian.

---

I must correct some information you provided. Switch the origination of the lines.

The Salmon hypo is Rich Ihle's line which originated from Central America(possibly Panama but not proven). He bred out to Colombian bloodlines. So the majority of Salmons are a higher percentage Colombian since the originating father was Columbian.

The Orangetail hypo is from Panama. Jeff Gee kept his bloodline Panama. He bred Panama to Panama. I have some of these and they are different from the Salmons. They are definitely more orange. They tend to be smaller as well. I have a 5 year old male who is only 4 1/2 feet. The female (not in pic) is also 5 years old and about 6 feet 14 lbs. Normal Columbian females are more closer to 20+ lbs at this length.

Now it isn't easy to find pure non-mixed Orange tails out there since alot of people are easily confused on what hypo they have and they tend to breed to Columbians to get the albino and other morphs. But when you do find them they are definitely breath taking as they get better in color with age.

It may look crazy orange but that is how my boas look. Not photoshopped.
Head to tail they are pinkish orange. Pictured is my male Gee line and on the right is a baby from G to G. On the bottom I have my male G with a normal so you can see the color difference. Actually they are breeding.

http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/v...rangetails.jpg

I thought Gee line hypos were general CA's. I had been told they were mixed. They're really pure Panama's?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by qiksilver

I thought Gee line hypos were general CA's. I had been told they were mixed. They're really pure Panama's?

---

Like I mentioned before, they are supposed to be pure. Depending on who you get it from and if they kept it pure. If you haven't already read The Complete Boa Constrictor by Vincent Russo. He also mentions this difference.

I compared mine to other hypos (salmon) and there is a difference.
Gee - tends to throw tail striping in my experiences. About 25% have some tail striping even when mixed with Columbian/normal. They also have some black speckling and a somewhat pointier snout. This is very hard to notice but after a while of staring and staring you get the hang of it.

In this pic I have mix G x normal and bottom 2 Super G x Poss super G.
http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/v...ilstriping.jpg

CA? what is that. I keep thinking California.. hehe. Is that Columbian?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyper Joe

Like I mentioned before, they are supposed to be pure. Depending on who you get it from and if they kept it pure. If you haven't already read The Complete Boa Constrictor by Vincent Russo. He also mentions this difference.

I compared mine to other hypos (salmon) and there is a difference.
Gee - tends to throw tail striping in my experiences. About 25% have some tail striping even when mixed with Columbian/normal. They also have some black speckling and a somewhat pointier snout. This is very hard to notice but after a while of staring and staring you get the hang of it.

In this pic I have mix G x normal and bottom 2 Super G x Poss super G.
http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/v...ilstriping.jpg

CA? what is that. I keep thinking California.. hehe. Is that Columbian?

---

My Lil Female loks like the one in the bottom corner on the right... she's pinkish with a really orangy red/brown tail...

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...serenity-2.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyper Joe

I must correct some information you provided. Switch the origination of the lines.

The Salmon hypo is Rich Ihle's line which originated from Central America(possibly Panama but not proven). He bred out to Colombian bloodlines. So the majority of Salmons are a higher percentage Colombian since the originating father was Columbian.

The Orangetail hypo is from Panama. Jeff Gee kept his bloodline Panama. He bred Panama to Panama. I have some of these and they are different from the Salmons. They are definitely more orange. They tend to be smaller as well. I have a 5 year old male who is only 4 1/2 feet. The female (not in pic) is also 5 years old and about 6 feet 14 lbs. Normal Columbian females are more closer to 20+ lbs at this length.

Now it isn't easy to find pure non-mixed Orange tails out there since alot of people are easily confused on what hypo they have and they tend to breed to Columbians to get the albino and other morphs. But when you do find them they are definitely breath taking as they get better in color with age.

It may look crazy orange but that is how my boas look. Not photoshopped.
Head to tail they are pinkish orange. Pictured is my male Gee line and on the right is a baby from G to G. On the bottom I have my male G with a normal so you can see the color difference. Actually they are breeding.

---

I'm not going to debate you on this one, but I think you should go through and re-read that book you mentioned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by qiksilver

I thought Gee line hypos were general CA's. I had been told they were mixed. They're really pure Panama's?

---

They are CA's and the Salmons are from Panamanian influences. Don't know about the mixing though, but it's most likely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyper Joe

CA? what is that. I keep thinking California.. hehe. Is that Columbian?

---

You're kidding, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimiSnakes

I'm not going to debate you on this one, but I think you should go through and re-read that book you mentioned.



They are CA's and the Salmons are from Panamanian influences. Don't know about the mixing though, but it's most likely.



You're kidding, right?

---

Hi Jimi.?

I am not trying to be abrasive. Sometimes people make mistakes. Humans right..?

I have read the book and had it open when I initially read your posting. That is the reason why I corrected it. Please see the attached pics. I try my best not to post or respond to persons if I may think I am wrong and do not have facts. And if I am wrong please prove me wrong. BP.net audience should get their information based on facts. We are here to learn and share information right.

Also, I am not familiar with the terminology "CA" I assume it means Columbian but since noone has verified with me that is what people mean by it nor has anyone (boa breeders ) ever mentioned it to me I will not assume it is.
I am new to the forum and the internet (reptile online world) but don't take that as if I am not experienced or knowledgeable in the reptile world. I don't know everything and I am not ashamed to admit it. Just like I asked "what does CA mean". However, if and when I do know something I will mention it and I will back it up the best I can.

I am hoping (to BP.net users) if someone asks a sincere question that you don't give a response like the one I received. For those of you who have been here for a while already know, there are people out there that just don't know and are just trying to find out.

Again, I do apologize if I came across too offensive. I just wanted to state the facts. I will try to be more tactful if that is the case.

See the attached pages below. Sorry for the poor quality.
I also noted the page numbers just in case it is not ledgible.

http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/v...ia/Page155.jpg
http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/v...ia/Page156.jpg
http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/v...ia/page157.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyper Joe

Hi Jimi.?

I am not trying to be abrasive. Sometimes people make mistakes. Humans right..?

I have read the book and had it open when I initially read your posting. That is the reason why I corrected it. Please see the attached pics. I try my best not to post or respond to persons if I may think I am wrong and do not have facts. And if I am wrong please prove me wrong. BP.net audience should get their information based on facts. We are here to learn and share information right.

---

To be completely honest, i totally read your post wrong and sincerely apologize. I thought (for some odd reason) that you were trying to say that Salmons WERE NOT from Panamanian bloodlines and that Jeff's were FROM Central Americans (which is wrong and right in the same context, we were both speaking the same language but different dialect). Having spoke with Vin many times (he's a good friend of mine) and reading the book, I got some of the "unknown" facts mixed up with the "book" facts. I'll have to clarify this the next time I speak with him.

For the record- Salmons are stemmed from Panamanian bloodlines "hypothetically", but in no way absolutely proveable.

Orangetail Bloodlines are from "central american" bloodlines, which equals about the same in my book.

And for the record and your knowledge- when someone says CA it means Central American in the Boa world. Not California.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wrongside

Like I said, the previous owner said it was that.

So what would he most likely be...full name I mean. BCI, BCC, what type of pastel etc...I'm more a BP person


Can't really tell from that pic, i will try to get better, but he is VERY pink on his sides

---

I'm sorry, but it's not a hypo OR Salmon in any way. It's definitely a Pastel, but Pastel is a very broad term lately. There's no way of teling what kind of Pastel he is without knowing more about his lineage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimiSnakes

To be completely honest, i totally read your post wrong and sincerely apologize. I thought (for some odd reason) that you were trying to say that Salmons WERE NOT from Panamanian bloodlines and that Jeff's were FROM Central Americans (which is wrong and right in the same context, we were both speaking the same language but different dialect). Having spoke with Vin many times (he's a good friend of mine) and reading the book, I got some of the "unknown" facts mixed up with the "book" facts. I'll have to clarify this the next time I speak with him.

For the record- Salmons are stemmed from Panamanian bloodlines "hypothetically", but in no way absolutely proveable.

Orangetail Bloodlines are from "central american" bloodlines, which equals about the same in my book.

And for the record and your knowledge- when someone says CA it means Central American in the Boa world. Not California.

---

Well, you can get it from the horses mouth tell him to post an explanation hehehe. I can only rely on what is documented. When I got into breeding boas.. I really liked the supposed "orangetail line". I read and talked to alot of people about the different lines. But just to make a sale some people lie.. So I didn't know who to trust so I used my experience in what I seen and finally the book came out. Then I thought wheww.. finally closure. Now.. back to point A?

Yeah this stuff is confusing. Maybe Vinny and Ihle need to post it somewhere. So we can get both sides on paper. Though both are hypo pioneers in my eyes. I just want a line drawn somewhere since I truly believe there is a visual difference and a size difference.

Now on that note - I have been selling my baby hypos and poss supers as orange tail/Panamanian for the ones that I have not bred out of their linage and they visually are different from most salmons. I like to be true to my customers so now I should just say they are orange tails and forget about Panama until this is cleared up? Moral issue.. I like to make sure I pass on the correct info to others. Especially my customers. hmmm

PS - thanks for the info CA= Central American.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyper Joe

...

Yeah this stuff is confusing. Maybe Vinny and Ihle need to post it somewhere. So we can get both sides on paper. ..

---

I meant Jeff Gee and Rich Ihle need to post it.. oops. :weirdface
What the heck get Vinny involved too since he wrote the book.. hehhehe:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyper Joe

Now on that note - I have been selling my baby hypos and poss supers as orange tail/Panamanian for the ones that I have not bred out of their linage and they visually are different from most salmons. I like to be true to my customers so now I should just say they are orange tails and forget about Panama until this is cleared up? Moral issue.. I like to make sure I pass on the correct info to others. Especially my customers. hmmm

---

Haha, now you're just twisting things all up. It even says in the book that OT's are Central American PANAMANIANS. It's the same terminology just more finely tuned down to PANAMA. This is getting silly though. I'm pretty sure we are both saying pretty much the same thing but just using different wording.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyper Joe

Well, you can get it from the horses mouth tell him to post an explanation hehehe. I can only rely on what is documented.

---

It doesn't seem to me that the two are any different, documentation or "horses mouth". Vin doesn't seem to have any doubts in his mind that Salmons originated from Panamanian BCI or he wouldn't have put them in the Boas of Panama section, lol. There is some things that aren't in his book for whatever reasons he chose, probably so he doesn't get into the "politics" of the Boa industry. Like his take on the Leopard gene for example, but that's a topic he should post about and is not my place to do for him.

This is the parts of the book that aren't shown in your post (the part of Orangetails or OT's being from PURE CENTRAL AMERICANS) that reiterate what I've been saying, and pretty much what you've been saying too-
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88...almon-page.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88...et/OT-page.jpg
*Pages from Vin Russo of Cutting Edge Herps, The Complete Boa Constrictor

Now, I'm done with this topic since it's really going no where and I don't want to hijack this thread anymore than we already did. You can pm, email, or even call me anytime to discuss this farther. All lines are always open for friendly Boa chat. Email and phone number on my website.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimiSnakes

Haha, now you're just twisting things all up. It even says in the book that OT's are Central American PANAMANIANS. It's the same terminology just more finely tuned down to PANAMA. This is getting silly though. I'm pretty sure we are both saying pretty much the same thing but just using different wording.



It doesn't seem to me that the two are any different, documentation or "horses mouth". Vin doesn't seem to have any doubts in his mind that Salmons originated from Panamanian BCI or he wouldn't have put them in the Boas of Panama section, lol. There is some things that aren't in his book for whatever reasons he chose, probably so he doesn't get into the "politics" of the Boa industry. Like his take on the Leopard gene for example, but that's a topic he should post about and is not my place to do for him.

This is the parts of the book that aren't shown in your post (the part of Orangetails or OT's being from PURE CENTRAL AMERICANS) that reiterate what I've been saying, and pretty much what you've been saying too-
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88...almon-page.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88...et/OT-page.jpg
*Pages from Vin Russo of Cutting Edge Herps, The Complete Boa Constrictor

Now, I'm done with this topic since it's really going no where and I don't want to hijack this thread anymore than we already did. You can pm, email, or even call me anytime to discuss this farther. All lines are always open for friendly Boa chat. Email and phone number on my website.

---

HAHAHA we did hijack this thread. Sorry guys.
Last one promise!

Update - (straight from Jeff Gee via email)
".. Our breeding stock was collected near the Panama Airport ..."
"...Rich Ihles original founding breeder came from us. He has crossed his with a Columbian & calls them "Salmon"..." - Jeff Gee

So they should be Panama but definitely Central American and Ihle mixed his with Colombian but keep in mind his original female is from Jeff Gee. So they are all BCI. And as far as locality Jeff's is pure with exception of the morphs.

Another note - Orange Tails is what Jeff Gee originally called them but Dave Barker suggested that they be called Hypomelanistic. So hence the OT and hypo calling confusion. He noted this in his email as well.

Thanks Jimi for making me dig to find more facts on this.
Yes we are talking the same thing just different dialect.

It's about time, lol.