Honest opinions needed

Okay, a little background here

A couple years ago I purchased a pair of egg-eaters. They were relatively new to the world which meant they either had to eat finch eggs (not easy to get your hands on) or be tube fed. The seller was tube feeding them. I had sporadic access to finch eggs and I have tube fed before so I felt comfortable taking them on.

Everything with them has been going well until recently. Over the last couple months I have begun to notice kinks popping up on them. And as the kinks have been popping up the locomotion on the animals has begun to deteriorate. Here are a couple vids from last night (please excuse the manic giggles of my 5 year old in the background), this is the female, she is the least impaired of the pair:

http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r...t=P2190009.flv

http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r...t=P2190010.flv

http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r...t=P2190011.flv


I have my suspicions as to what might be the cause of this but that is rather moot at this time since it can not be undone.


Anyways, my question to all of you (and please be brutally honest) is do I freeze them? My gut feeling is that I ought to but I want to be sure I am not just over reacting.

Thanks in advance for your input.

the videos didn't show...

Try now

I am not familiar enough with this species to give any advice but I will say that it is very interesting..

Please let up know how it turns out

They work now. I have no experience with them so this is interesting to me.

Oh man, that looks really sad. :( Have you taken them to a herp vet? I don't have any experience with this sort of thing, and you don't really give much info at all. It's impossible to say what should be done. Is there a chance the snakes could recover and live a normal, contented life? If so, is it worth it to you to try and rehabilitate them? Or are they doomed to a painful, slow deterioration? In the second vid, you can see how the other snake is just lying there belly-up for awhile, then oh-so-slowly manages to turn over.

IF the condition is permanent, then I can't see any other humane option but euthanasia. Not sure if "throwing them in the freezer" is the right way to do that, though.

Wow those videos are sad. :tears:

It sounds to me like you believe this is happening due to a nutritional deficiency when they were young? Sometimes things like that can be at least partially corrected by proper diet and/or supplementation later. I know nothing about this species, so really the only thing I can recommend is to get them to a good herp vet.

I'm curious about the other picture in your photobucket. It looks like a frog and a BP? What is going on in that picture??

JLC,

I have discussed this with my vet but he does not have any experience with egg-eaters either so he is kind of shooting from the hip as well. I am going to be meeting with him over the weekend for him to look at them hands on.

What furthur info would you like? I am happy to provide.

I am more than willing to work on rehabing them if they can recover, it is just that I am just afraid that the way that the condition seems to be deteriorating as time passes may mean it is not going to be "fixable".

And yes I know "throwing them in the freezer" is not the right way to put a snake down. I was more using the phrase "freeze" as a euphamism for putting them down. If I need to put them down I'll have my vet do it.

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Originally Posted by kc261

It sounds to me like you believe this is happening due to a nutritional deficiency when they were young?

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Actually, I think what is happening may be more akin to why you do not pop baby chondros. These guys have really fragile bones. I knew this and I have been extremely careful when feeding/handling them. I do not know how the seller was handling them though and if he was not as aware of the fragile nature of their bones it would be easy to overlook the fact that you can not "clamp down" on them to keep them still while tubing. I think they may have sustained damage early on and it is only now becoming apparent.

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I'm curious about the other picture in your photobucket. It looks like a frog and a BP? What is going on in that picture??

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That is not my pic. It is a screen shot from another forum. I captured it for a "bad person" thread on another site. I can provide further details via PM if you like.

Glad to hear all that! I imagine there aren't very many folks out there with much egg-eater experience, though. :(

Info that might help puzzle out whether or not there is a chance for recovery:

1. What do you THINK caused this? (You said you had an idea)

2. When did you first notice evidence of something wrong?

3. Did that something appear in both snakes at the same time? Or first one and then later the other?

4. How fast have they "gone downhill" since you first noticed something wrong?

5. How much worse is the second one than the one shown in the vids?

6. What steps have you taken to try and correct the issue? (ie: extra feedings...calcium supplements...change in diet...medicines...change in environment?)

7. Did your vet have any advice to offer at all? If so, what was it and were you able to follow it?

8. Have you seen any signs of improvement at all that might indicate a chance to turn it around?

I don't know if we have any resident "egg-eater experts" around...but hopefully someone will be able to help you come to a reasonable and humane decision. :hug:

About the possible bone damage... I would think that if they had been damaged enough to cause this problem, it would have been apparent immediately, or at least almost immediately. Sort of like people don't walk around on a broken leg for years and then suddenly develop a limp. I'm just guessing. I'm glad to hear you have already spoken to your vet and are taking them to see him. I hope he can help.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

That is not my pic. It is a screen shot from another forum. I captured it for a "bad person" thread on another site. I can provide further details via PM if you like.

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Sorry. When I posted about it, I should have said I saw the notation on the photo that it was not yours. I would appreciate a PM about it, thanks.

If you don't mind me asking what do you think the problem is maybe tht would help some of us out.

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Originally Posted by JLC

I imagine there aren't very many folks out there with much egg-eater experience, though. :(

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Yeah, not many egg-eater people out there...

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1. What do you THINK caused this? (You said you had an idea)

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Please read above, my post, #9

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2. When did you first notice evidence of something wrong?

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I noticed the first kink in the male almost a year ago.

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3. Did that something appear in both snakes at the same time? Or first one and then later the other?

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It appeared in the male first. As I noted above, he got a small kink about a year ago. His locomotion has been off for about 6 months. Only started seeing things in the female about 3 months ago and the locomotion problems for her started a month ago

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4. How fast have they "gone downhill" since you first noticed something wrong?

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What you saw in the vid of the female has appeared in only a months time. Before that she was slithering like normal.

5

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. How much worse is the second one than the one shown in the vids?

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Significantly. He would not move or I would have taken a vid of him. Easiest explanation on his motion is imagine a really bad spider ball combined with what you saw in the female.

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6. What steps have you taken to try and correct the issue? (ie: extra feedings...calcium supplements...change in diet...medicines...change in environment?)

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I have not upped feeding, I did not want to stress them further and wanted to keep handling to a minimum.

It is hard to calcium supplement, when they eat the eggs they spit the shell (normal behavior) and when I have had to tube them it is hard to get calcium supplement dissolved in the egg.

I have not administered any meds or changed they living spaces

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7. Did your vet have any advice to offer at all? If so, what was it and were you able to follow it?

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Only advice he had was to observe and see how things went. To watch for worsening behavior (which is what prompted this posting and my call to see him this weekend). As I noted, he has no experience with these guys so he is wanting to be conservative in his approach which I understand.

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8. Have you seen any signs of improvement at all that might indicate a chance to turn it around?

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I have not seen any improvements.

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I don't know if we have any resident "egg-eater experts" around...

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Not many egg-eater keepers to begin with, I might be the only one on the board with them.

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but hopefully someone will be able to help you come to a reasonable and humane decision. :hug:

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That is my hope

Thanks

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Originally Posted by kc261

About the possible bone damage... I would think that if they had been damaged enough to cause this problem, it would have been apparent immediately, or at least almost immediately. Sort of like people don't walk around on a broken leg for years and then suddenly develop a limp. I'm just guessing.

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Not always the case. As I noted earlier, with chondros people advocate you never pop them because damage does occur that can lead to a kink appearing days, weeks, months or even years later. I think the same type of thing is going on here. I believe they may have sustained damage early on, maybe from the seller, maybe from me (I have been extra careful but I am not going to say I might not have done something wrong, but if I did I do not recall it) and it is only now beginning to manifest.

Hi,

Are you certain it isn't a neurological or musculature problem rather than the bones themselves?

Sorry to ask but it just occured to me looking at the way she moves - but I have zero experience of anything like this so figured I would ask.

If your tube feeding would it be possible to put the vitamin supplements we sprinkle onto crickets through it if you made the mixture slightly more liquid or thicker (say with AD )?

What mixture are you tube feeding them at the moment?

Just in case the answers help someone think of any more suggestions or something.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Are you certain it isn't a neurological or musculature problem rather than the bones themselves?

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Pretty sure. I know it is not obvious in the vids but she has 3 significant kinks and a couple other spots that I think are developing into kinks.

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Sorry to ask but it just occured to me looking at the way she moves - but I have zero experience of anything like this so figured I would ask.

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I do not mind you asking. I want other opinions, anything could spark me down a line of thought I have not come to yet.

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If your tube feeding would it be possible to put the vitamin supplements we sprinkle onto crickets through it if you made the mixture slightly more liquid or thicker (say with AD )?

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Maybe, difficulty is that 1) vit mixes do not go into egg yolk that well the times I have tried and 2) the feeding tube is a pretty fine gauge so "thick" things gum it up.

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What mixture are you tube feeding them at the moment?

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When I tube, I use quail egg yolk.

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Just in case the answers help someone think of any more suggestions or something.

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Yes please. Any thoughts are appreciated

Hi,

Was thinking about the delicate bone problem while cleaning my male cornsnakes tank so he got used in a bit of an experiment;

Do you think any idea like this could be adapted to prevent spinal damage?

I know it wouldn't work for normal assist or force feeding because of the inability to expand but it might be ok for tube feeding maybe.

http://satanswombat.googlepages.com/corninatube2.jpg

Oh and if you ever wondered what a seriously miffed cornsnake looks like close up here it is;

http://satanswombat.googlepages.com/corninatube3.jpg

That was just a bit of spare aquarium tubing I had lying about but I think you could split it in two and make a hinge on one side ( silicon sealant and a rubber innertube from a bike tyre should work ) to simplify the process.

Sorry just a wierd idea that occured. :oops:


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Oh and if you ever wondered what a seriously miffed cornsnake looks like close up here it is;

http://satanswombat.googlepages.com/corninatube3.jpg

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That doesn't look like a happy corn. lol.