problem with w.c. gravids from africa!!!!!!!

ok
so im not sure if i am the only one but im really starting to get a problem with all of these wild caught gravid females being whored out. First of all we have enough ball pythons in captivity as it is, and yes i know we wouldnt have all the great morphs today if we didnt take some from the wild to begin with, but it was not as bad as it is now, taking snakes from the wild that have a potential to be a new morph to breed and return is one thing, taking pregent mothers is another, we need to keep the population of balls in the wild good for the animals and for our hobby, i know it sounds silly now but some day these animals could become endangerd and no one will be able to have them, plus its starting to show people are starting to go in the wrong direction with these aniamls, yes its a fun hobby and yes theres money to be made but theres a point when its exploitation, they are still living creatures, and to boot these people are selling them for $70 a peice, i dont know but my opionion is it needs to stop and we need to just work with the animals we have, there are still thounds of morphs that have yet to be done just in our own collections

Tracy Barker brought this up in her reptile radio. I also see no reason to be importing WC gravids from Africa, and I try to avoid buying from people who import them (not just the WC gravids, but in general). In the end, isn't this all about education and conservation?

JonV

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

Tracy Barker brought this up in her reptile radio. I also see no reason to be importing WC gravids from Africa, and I try to avoid buying from people who import them (not just the WC gravids, but in general). In the end, isn't this all about education and conservation?

JonV

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absolutly, did Tracey Barker agree

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

In the end, isn't this all about education and conservation?

JonV

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Not for me.. It's a hobby, a way to keep myself busy and enjoy life, and enjoying having some animal companionship. Granted, my herps aren't exactly dog or cat companionship, but they're what I have time for, and I really do get quite a bit of general life satisfaction and happiness out of taking care of an animal as it grows up.

I'm sure there are dozens of reasons why people are into herps, education and conservation among them, but those reasons aren't why I'm into it. However, I do love the fact that there are so many people in the education and conservation camp when it comes to reptiles :D

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Not for me.. It's a hobby, a way to keep myself busy and enjoy life, and enjoying having some animal companionship. Granted, my herps aren't exactly dog or cat companionship, but they're what I have time for, and I really do get quite a bit of general life satisfaction and happiness out of taking care of an animal as it grows up.

I'm sure there are dozens of reasons why people are into herps, education and conservation among them, but those reasons aren't why I'm into it. However, I do love the fact that there are so many people in the education and conservation camp when it comes to reptiles :D

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I like having hobbies too, Jiu-jitsu for example, but it doesn't come at the cost of plucking...gravid Brazilian's from Brazil (analogy, lol?)... and importing them to the US.

JonV

I think we're all grown up enough to respect one another's opinions.

I'm all for importing captive hatch babies, but I don't agree with dragging in gravid mothers. These animals usually do poorly in captivity, despite what the sellers claim, and it's just not worth watching an animal waste away for a few normal babies.

dude i agree i always thought of that too like whats going to happen to the population of balls in africa its going to be depleted if we dont do something about it theyll be gone pretty soon and specially if they are importing gravids from africa thats just bad!

First, the populations in Africa have not been shown to have dropped at all. There's no studys that say that, and in fact the only studies done seem to indicate there are more ball pythons than before.
All the people that I have spoken with that ACTUALLY BOUGHT A GRAVID have said the animal laid the eggs, and began eating afterwards. I'm sure some don't make it, but you'd need a actual percentage, to compare with a percentage of CBB snakes that also might die for various reasons.
I don't see any real reason to import gravid ball pythons, myself. But if you're going to argue against it, you need to use facts and figures, or morals.
There are NOT enough ball pythons in captivity, or no one would buy the imports(and also wouldn't buy CBB for that matter). There is a market for ball pythons, and unless it's filled up with our CBB snakes, they will look to imports to fill it instead.
Eliminate the need for imports, and the market for imports will dry up. Of course.. that means the pythons will be harvested for meat and skins instead.. but that's another whole issue to address.

Your are not alone. I will not do business with anyone who deals with w.c. or c.h. ball pythons!!

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

Tracy Barker brought this up in her reptile radio. I also see no reason to be importing WC gravids from Africa, and I try to avoid buying from people who import them (not just the WC gravids, but in general). In the end, isn't this all about education and conservation?

JonV

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JonV,

For Tracy Barker to take a stand against the importation of ball pythons skews toward hypocritical. Her company has some of the most unusual ball pythons out there and they produced many of them FIRST. Think she was first because she got real lucky on a CB normal X CB normal? Nope, she participated in the plucking just like everyone else. And now that she has her edge, her advantage, in the ball morph BUSINESS she decides to oppose the same practice that helped catapult her to where she is? That's just too convenient.

The buying of gravids is a shadow of what it used to be. For that reason the practice will reduce on its own. There is little money to be made when you consider their cost to the value of the likely offspring. So that means that the imported gravid can now be distilled into two different things:

1. A lottery ticket. Strange things have been known to pop out of w.c. gravid eggs. Maybe, just maybe, the one you get is a winner!
2. Egg Practice. Morbid though it sounds I have heard of many people [new to breeding] using gravids as 'practice' for the real deal. Their logic is that they can gain experience with egg incubation/hatching without the eggs being from their prized animals.

I wouldn't mind seeing a decrease in the number of animals imported (baby balls in particular) but I'm more pragmatic in my reasoning: fewer baby ball pythons being pumped into the marketplace pushes the supply & demand equation back in favor of the breeder (as opposed to the importer/wholesaler). The price of ball pythons will begin to rise if we stop importing so many from the wild.

Regards,

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

JonV,

For Tracy Barker to take a stand against the importation of ball pythons skews toward hypocritical. Her company has some of the most unusual ball pythons out there and they produced many of them FIRST. Think she was first because she got real lucky on a CB normal X CB normal? Nope, she participated in the plucking just like everyone else. And now that she has her edge, her advantage, in the ball morph BUSINESS she decides to oppose the same practice that helped catapult her to where she is? That's just too convenient.

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She points out that the reason they did this was so we could get to the point where it would no longer need to be done, and she feels we are currently at that point with a large, strong population of ball pythons in the US.

JonV

SEARCH Feature is amazing

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ghlight=gravid

I really have to agree with you guys that are opposing the importation of w/c's. I am very opinionated on this subject. Do I think it should continue? NO nor would I purchase a cb from someone who also readily deals in w/c. My thoughts have always remained the same with any species in the commercial market, I think there is a fine line when it comes to "greed" and "exploitation". There has to be a line drawn somewhere. I personally feel there are more than enough ball pythons (including other more popular pythons) here with endless possibilities. When you see statistics like "144,000 burms imported here in the last 5 years" That is roughly 28,000 per year over a 5 year period, thats not even counting the stats for the other species being imported.
I dont know about others but that is astounding to me. It's like everything else that makes this world turn , if something is abused for a long enough time, you will eventually see a decline and detrimental effects.

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

She points out that the reason they did this was so we could get to the point where it would no longer need to be done, and she feels we are currently at that point with a large, strong population of ball pythons in the US.

JonV

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bull! the barkers inport stuff all the time and not just balls!
as for the extinction thats a joke look at the iguana! they are reinterducing them how? by CBB.
if we want to make that agruement how about the cheeta and yet they still import them and even breed them here.

Based on the premise that ball pythons will be harvested in the wild whether gravid or not would you rather have them sent here where a goodly percentage will not only lay eggs that will be cared for and go on to live long healthy lives, not all but more than most think, or would you have them all killed, gravid or not, to be used for skins and meat?

No matter what happens to the bodies in the end harvesting will not stop.

Unless of course some way of providing alternate income is created and maintained for those who hunt and sell these snakes, any snakes, in their native lands.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Based on the premise that ball pythons will be harvested in the wild whether gravid or not would you rather have them sent here where a goodly percentage will not only lay eggs that will be cared for and go on to live long healthy lives, not all but more than most think, or would you have them all killed, gravid or not, to be used for skins and meat?

No matter what happens to the bodies in the end harvesting will not stop.

Unless of course some way of providing alternate income is created and maintained for those who hunt and sell these snakes, any snakes, in their native lands.

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There are five ways in which people interact with animals
1: Pets / entertainment
2: Food
3: Work ( Beast of Burden )
4: Total hands off protection.
5: Sport

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Based on the premise that ball pythons will be harvested in the wild whether gravid or not would you rather have them sent here where a goodly percentage will not only lay eggs that will be cared for and go on to live long healthy lives, not all but more than most think, or would you have them all killed, gravid or not, to be used for skins and meat?

No matter what happens to the bodies in the end harvesting will not stop.

Unless of course some way of providing alternate income is created and maintained for those who hunt and sell these snakes, any snakes, in their native lands.

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Speaking of ... I stumbled on a video of bloods being slaughtered for skin to make purses yesterday...Not a pretty site. I thought about posting but its to horrific to say the least.

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Originally Posted by iCandiBallPythons

Speaking of ... I stumbled on a video of bloods being slaughtered for skin to make purses yesterday...Not a pretty site. I thought about posting but its to horrific to say the least.

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I've seen that. Sad to us but there it's food on the table whether it's selling the skins or eating the meat or both.

It's hard for us, who love our slithering housemates to imagine smashing one on the head with a 4x4 to kill it but then over there they find it hard to believe we don't eat our cats and dogs.

Cultural upbringing is powerful stuff.

It's not about right or wrong when your families welfare is at stake. We here in America don't realize how hand-to-mouth many other cultures have it. There are no drive throughs, there are no paychecks. You grow it you eat. You kill it you eat. You catch and sell it you eat.

Do none of the above, you starve.

I saw that too.. Not pretty ...if the demand for snake skin was lower then those big snakes would be food, or sold as pets, or to zoos.

no problems with it here.
do your thing if you dont want to buy c.h. or w.c. dont.
noones making you...

I'm more a fan of CB, BUUUT like how the Platinum was introduced; if someone finds a really cool looking wild caught snake, well then they should obviously try and sell it off to the highest bidder, who then has the right to breed it off and sell it's babies for whatever the market will stand. Capitalism, it's a beautiful thing.

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

JonV,

For Tracy Barker to take a stand against the importation of ball pythons skews toward hypocritical. Her company has some of the most unusual ball pythons out there and they produced many of them FIRST. Think she was first because she got real lucky on a CB normal X CB normal? Nope, she participated in the plucking just like everyone else. And now that she has her edge, her advantage, in the ball morph BUSINESS she decides to oppose the same practice that helped catapult her to where she is? That's just too convenient.

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If you put down your pitchfork for a moment, you would understand what Tracy actually had to say. No, I don't have a transcript in front of me, but this is along the lines of what she said... (paraphrasing here)

"Our captive populations and gene pool is sustainable without continued importation of ball pythons."

I don't recall her ever saying she didn't import animals. In fact, she is one of the first people to get different wild caught species to successfully breed, hatch and live in captivity, even though she may not work with each species any more.

They do still import other species of snake. Species that do not have high numbers here in the US.

She firmly believes that continuing to import ball pythons is not needed. Never has she said she hasn't imported them, or that they aren't importing any other snake species.

It's good advice to get your facts straight before you start calling someone a hypocrite.

The fact is the definition of a hypocrite is someone who'll do something then tell others not to.
Too me that is not to be based on situation
if you did it and tell people not to, for whatever reason, your a hippocrit

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Originally Posted by azpythons

The fact is the definition of a hypocrite is someone who'll do something then tell others not to.
Too me that is not to be based on situation
if you did it and tell people not to, for whatever reason, your a hippocrit

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:rolleyes:

Oh, I just love forums....

A hypocrite is someone who ACTS in difference to their opinions or sayings.

So, if she imports ANY snake, she's a hypocrite, even if the reality is two different circumstances.

Wow, I had no idea I wasn't allowed to have an opinion about one species importation and can't have a differing opinion on another species or else I'm a hypocrite. No matter the different circumstances... They are totally the same thing. :rolleyes:

I apparently need to go back and review my entire life. *review review...*

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

I like having hobbies too, Jiu-jitsu for example, but it doesn't come at the cost of plucking...gravid Brazilian's from Brazil (analogy, lol?)... and importing them to the US.

JonV

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I do Jiu jitsu as well! Sweet!:cool:

Regarding to the subject- People are out to make money in this hobby. People are finding ways to sell one for $75 a pop as easy as they can. Selling ready to breed females for $75 is very appealing. But these people are not taking into consideration the market as a whole. They are selling trash and diluting the market and the species. I am all about quality not quantity.

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Originally Posted by azpythons

no problems with it here.
do your thing if you dont want to buy c.h. or w.c. dont.
noones making you...

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Wow ok so you have missed the point of this thead completely
And for the people saying it can't be stopped your wrong we as Americans can help by stopping the purchasing and selling of these snakes and for the people still doing it try being a human and forget about the $70.

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

Wow ok so you have missed the point of this thead completely
And for the people saying it can't be stopped your wrong we as Americans can help by stopping the purchasing and selling of these snakes and for the people still doing it try being a human and forget about the $70.

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LOL

Look, it's a guy with blinders on claiming he has x-ray vision.

The thing about being human, is that we are all different. No one has the right to force anyone else to change thier opinion. If some people don't like getting imports, then don't. Some people do like imports, leave them be.
If you stop focusing all your enegy on what everyone else is doing you will live a much happier life.
Just worry about yourself, you can not change anyone else!

I honestly don't care about other people's opinions. I live MY life the way I want to.

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Originally Posted by JamieLynn

The thing about being human, is that we are all different. No one has the right to force anyone else to change thier opinion.

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Tell that to the Catholics who are always pounding on my door :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Tell that to the Catholics who are always pounding on my door :rolleyes:

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I usually just tell them to go to heck, or I will burn them at the stake. Or answer the door in a long black hooded robe, and they don't come back.

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Originally Posted by JamieLynn

I usually just tell them to go to heck, or I will burn them at the stake. Or answer the door in a long black hooded robe, and they don't come back.

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Wow, I had no idea that black scared away Catholics.... :O

That must be why they wear the white collars. :8:

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Originally Posted by JamieLynn

I usually just tell them to go to heck, or I will burn them at the stake. Or answer the door in a long black hooded robe, and they don't come back.

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Or just answer the door holding a huge snake, as you know, the snake is the disguise of the devil, lol.

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Originally Posted by zhang317

Or just answer the door holding a huge snake, as you know, the snake is the disguise of the devil, lol.

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Do Catholics preach that?? Here I was thinking God created all creatures....

Must be why I'm a Lutheran. :8:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Wow, I had no idea that black scared away Catholics.... :O

That must be why they wear the white collars. :8:

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I don't think it is so much the black, as it is the long hooded robe.

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Originally Posted by JamieLynn

I don't think it is so much the black, as it is the long hooded robe.

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So thats why Monks wear brown robes!! I GET IT! Thx so much for opening my eyes to this... :rolleyes:

As a catholic....I didnt know we knocked on doors....thought it was just the mormons and jehovas witness.....

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Originally Posted by azpythons

As a catholic....I didnt know we knocked on doors....thought it was just the mormons and jehovas witness.....

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You mean you just barge right in? OMG!
J/K.

Back to the original topic... anyone can have their own opinions both of the practice of importing gravids, and of individuals who import or say don't import. Just because someone doesn't switch to your own opinion doesn't mean they are wrong.

Kick the door down if you gotta.
and yes...people who dont agree with me are wrong
and i think importing is ok!
so yall are wrong

:taz::taz::taz::taz::taz:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

You mean you just barge right in? OMG!
J/K.

Back to the original topic... anyone can have their own opinions both of the practice of importing gravids, and of individuals who import or say don't import. Just because someone doesn't switch to your own opinion doesn't mean they are wrong.

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Originally Posted by JamieLynn

The thing about being human, is that we are all different. No one has the right to force anyone else to change thier opinion. If some people don't like getting imports, then don't. Some people do like imports, leave them be.
If you stop focusing all your enegy on what everyone else is doing you will live a much happier life.
Just worry about yourself, you can not change anyone else!

I honestly don't care about other people's opinions. I live MY life the way I want to.

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Its not about changing peoples opinion its about doing the right thing and it does effect Me and you if you do this hobby cause it screws up the market and unfortunately the ones effected the most don't have a voice cause there snakes you need to get a clue

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

Its not about changing peoples opinion its about doing the right thing and it does effect Me and you if you do this hobby cause it screws up the market and unfortunately the ones effected the most don't have a voice cause there snakes you need to get a clue

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Ahhhhhh, now I see.

It screws up the MARKET.....

It screws up how much YOU pay and how much you GET paid.....

It all becomes clear now. It's NOT about the snakes, it's about the VALUE of those snakes.

It makes much more sense to me now....

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Ahhhhhh, now I see.

It screws up the MARKET.....

It screws up how much YOU pay and how much you GET paid.....

It all becomes clear now. It's NOT about the snakes, it's about the VALUE of those snakes.

It makes much more sense to me now....

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Your going to attack Me now because I used the market about a example of how its effecting us my whole point is a combitation of things and aren't you the one that preeched about your own ppionion how dare you tell Me this whole thead is about the money I started cause I have a concern for the animals grow up

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

Its not about changing peoples opinion its about doing the right thing and it does effect Me and you if you do this hobby cause it screws up the market and unfortunately the ones effected the most don't have a voice cause there snakes you need to get a clue

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I can only respond to what you write.

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

Your going to attack Me now because I used the market about a example of how its effecting us my whole point is a combitation of things and aren't you the one that preeched about your own ppionion how dare you tell Me this whole thead is about the money I started cause I have a concern for the animals grow up

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You brought up the market and it's affect on you personally.

Seems to me you're saying one thing and doing another.

What's the word for that....... oh yeah, hypocrit, or hypocrite, however you wish to spell it. Those two are the generally accepted spelling of that word.

It's not an attack. It's an observation and a statement based on facts provided by you and ONLY you.

Wow, this topic turned into a cockfight. How about everyone just... chills out and takes a break, this is the internet, go outside and get some fresh air before your panties are so wadded they will need to be surgically removed.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Wow, this topic turned into a cockfight. How about everyone just... chills out and takes a break, this is the internet, go outside and get some fresh air before your panties are so wadded they will need to be surgically removed.

:rolleyes:

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oops.....to late

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I can only respond to what you write.



You brought up the market and it's affect on you personally.

Seems to me you're saying one thing and doing another.

What's the word for that....... oh yeah, hypocrit, or hypocrite, however you wish to spell it. Those two are the generally accepted spelling of that word.

It's not an attack. It's an observation and a statement based on facts provided by you and ONLY you.

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So just cause I used that as a example of one of the things I don't like your useung that against Me calling Me a lier and I just care about the money your a joke

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

So just cause I used that as a example of one of the things I don't like your useung that against Me calling Me a lier and I just care about the money your a joke

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Well, I just checked to make sure and you probably should as well because you're not going to like this next part.

I never attacked you but, more importantly, I never called you a liar.

If I am correct in my assertion that I have not called you a lair and you are proclaiming to the entire WWW community that I did, doesn't that, in your own words, make you a liar?

Hmmmmm?

[QUPYE=wilomn;981850]Well, I just checked to make sure and you probably should as well because you're not going to like this next part.

I never attacked you but, more importantly, I never called you a liar.

If I am correct in my assertion that I have not called you a lair and you are proclaiming to the entire WWW community that I did, doesn't that, in your own words, make you a liar?

Hmmmmm?[/QUOTE]ok so I brougt this subject up cause it was a concern to Me and obviously others as well you don't need to comment anymore cause you clearly don't know anything and for everyone else I'm glad there is other people who care and want to see something done and for the sake of this thead stop posting and go back to high school

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Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

[QUPYE=wilomn;981850]Well, I just checked to make sure and you probably should as well because you're not going to like this next part.

I never attacked you but, more importantly, I never called you a liar.

If I am correct in my assertion that I have not called you a lair and you are proclaiming to the entire WWW community that I did, doesn't that, in your own words, make you a liar?

Hmmmmm?

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ok so I brougt this subject up cause it was a concern to Me and obviously others as well you don't need to comment anymore cause you clearly don't know anything and for everyone else I'm glad there is other people who care and want to see something done and for the sake of this thead stop posting and go back to high school[/QUOTE]

Translation:

You're right Wes, I did lie. I may not have meant to but you caught me out and now I'm embarrASSed about it.


LOL

Congratulations on ruining a serious post about a topic we care about and no one is laughing at your stupid jokes

I giggled... :D


It's a serious post but it's not going to stop. Americans care about money.

Anywhoozille, as long as there is demand in this business for the newest, cool, rare morphs... it's not going to stop.