Are ball pythons a domesticated species?

I just wanted to see what everyone here thought about ball pythons being considered a domesticated species.

Do you consider the ball pythons you have in your collection to be domesticated animals?

I personally don't think they are.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/domesticated+animal

domesticated animal - any of various animals that have been tamed and made fit for a human environment

i say no because i don't feel that a BP is tame. it is able to be handled, but so is a rhino at the zoo. but i wouldn't let a rhino loose in my apt with my 3 year old. i also don't let my beloved BP's loose in the apt unattended. The cats are a different story. Actually, i think they run the place.

I don't consider them domesticated. Neither are my parrots.

This is from wikipedia

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According to evolutionary biologist Jared Diamond, animal species must meet six criteria in order to be considered for domestication:
1. Flexible diet — Creatures that are willing to consume a wide variety of food sources and can live off less cumulative food from the food pyramid (such as corn or wheat) are less expensive to keep in captivity. Carnivores by their very nature only feed on meat, which requires the expenditure of many animals.
2. Reasonably fast growth rate — Fast maturity rate compared to the human life span allows breeding intervention and makes the animal useful within an acceptable duration of caretaking. Large animals such as elephants require many years before they reach a useful size.
3. Ability to be bred in captivity — Creatures that are reluctant to breed when kept in captivity do not produce useful offspring, and instead are limited to capture in their wild state. Creatures such as the panda, antelope and giant forest hogs are territorial when breeding and cannot be maintained in crowded enclosures in captivity.
4. Pleasant disposition — Large creatures that are aggressive toward humans are dangerous to keep in captivity. The African buffalo has an unpredictable nature and is highly dangerous to humans. Although similar to domesticated pigs in many ways, American peccaries and Africa's warthogs and bushpigs are also dangerous in captivity.
5. Temperament which makes it unlikely to panic — A creature with a nervous disposition is difficult to keep in captivity as they will attempt to flee whenever they are startled. The gazelle is very flighty and it has a powerful leap that allows it to escape an enclosed pen. Some animals, such as Domestic sheep, still have a strong tendency to panic when their flight zone is crossed. However, most sheep also show a flocking instinct, whereby they stay close together when pressed. Livestock with such an instinct may be herded by people and dogs.
6. Modifiable social hierarchy — Social creatures that recognize a hierarchy of dominance can be raised to recognize a human as the pack leader.

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The last one is the reason reptiles will never be concidered "Domestic".

out of curiosity, i would love to know why the two yes's belive to.

Yeah not even close. Although I think that the definition that Freakie_Frog quoted for us is more rigid than most people would accept I think that BP's are way off the mark. Cats for instance are not domestic as they do not recognize a social hierarchy and they do not have a flexible diet, but your average person would say that they are domesticated because they thrive along side humans and the modern pet food industry has made a dry food that fits their dietary needs readily available to those in industrialized nations.

Ball pythons on the other hand, have a very specific diet and do not readily take their specific diet unless conditions are provided that are not easy nore useful to humans. They also do not recognize hierarchy at all.

Domestic animals have a trait that can be exploited to the benefit of humans. Although I still consider them far from domesticated their instinct to ball could be considered a trait that is advantageous to humans. Unfortunately that trait only serves to make them of an acceptable temperament for humans.

Domestic animals also have a purpose and BP have none except indulging their owners desire to keep them. Their slow metabolism makes them suck at rodent control which would be about their only possible use.

I voted no - they're not domesticated. I think some *could* be considered tame, however... as in, with regular handling and interaction, they recognize the safety of their surroundings... therefore modified behavior. Sort of like cats, who I also consider tame rather than domesticated.

To me, a domesticated animal is one that is wholly integrated with human society to the point of the entire species i.e. dogs, who are not their wolf ancestors.

I agree with everyone so far.

To the people who think that ball pythons are a domesticated species can you explain why.

I voted no. --Josh

I don't think you can really use a clip from wikipedia on this one. Tamed yes, domesticated........not so sure. My pythons will not strike or bite me, but you take one from the wilds of Africa, would it be more inclined to do that? Maybe.......at least my wild boas are always pissed off and the ones I've raised are very nice. And if the posts above is correct, what do you say to a dog that turns on it's owner? I'm riding the fence lol.

Ball Pythons rarely bite because generally speaking they're a snake with a nice disposition.

They are not domestic :confused:

They're not "tame" and they're not social animals either. They are no different from the ones you find in the wild; they haven't acclimated to human care.

BPs are not domesticated, nor are they tame. Don't confuse docile with tame. Young ones do tolerate handling very well, and many older ones even seem to enjoy it, but being easy going is in their nature.

I say no because I could never trust snakes to not bite someone. Dogs, cats, even rats, you have a pretty good idea of their likeliness to bite. For example, I was about 90% sure my rat wouldn't bite someone and in her three years and several kids that played with her, she never bit anyone. A snake on the other hand, ANY kind of snake, you don't have those odds. You can never really trust them not to strike at someone, and depending on the size of both the snake and the person getting bit, it can be very dangerous. The size thing goes for any kind of animal, but people are much more willing to forgive a dog than a snake.

Also, they aren't looking for human companionship like cats, dogs, horses, rats, etc. They could care less if they ever saw you again, and they most definitely don't come find you for a good pet.

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Originally Posted by Slim

but being easy going is in their nature.

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I do think that is confused for being "domesticated".

One thing I have noticed with my carpet is that he always comes to me instead of anybody else. They're not going to miss you, love you, etc., but they'll recognize you.

People that tell me their snakes are domesticated and love them... I just tell them to leave the tub open when they leave for work and see if the snake is there waiting for them when they get home...

I know. Doesn't compute into domestic, but I like the analogy. :rolleyes:

I didn't vote, but no. Not domestic.

But I do think my idea of heaven would be to come home and have 45 snakes at the door waiting for me! :O

While I love my snakes, and I'd like to think that they love me back, I'm not naive either. Snakes, whether balls or pit vipers are not domesticated. I personally don't believe any animal is truly ever domesticated, but that's another topic entirely. They're wild animals that tolerate our presence. That's why I continuously tell people, "You deserved to be bitten. You done screwed up, kid." We put ourselves in these situations with these animals that're compromising, and then gasp and look in awe at the blood on our fingers when we're bitten. C'mon. We're smarter than that. We know deep down in our hearts that these animals are wild, that we haven't domesticated them, and every day we're not bitten is a sign that we're tolerable enough.

The moment you stop realizing your snake is a wild animal might be the day that you get tagged. We need to have respect for these animals. Respect and admiration. Many of the Africans do. They stand in awe of ball pythons. Why don't we?

And...I'm done ranting. O_o

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Originally Posted by Melicious

C'mon. We're smarter than that. We know deep down in our hearts that these animals are wild, that we haven't domesticated them, and every day we're not bitten is a sign that we're tolerable enough.

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That's the problem. Most people don't know that.

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Originally Posted by southb

I don't think you can really use a clip from wikipedia on this one. Tamed yes, domesticated........not so sure. My pythons will not strike or bite me, but you take one from the wilds of Africa, would it be more inclined to do that? Maybe.......at least my wild boas are always pissed off and the ones I've raised are very nice. And if the posts above is correct, what do you say to a dog that turns on it's owner? I'm riding the fence lol.

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I say some owners suck at canine husbandry. Dogs require a pecking order. If you do not dominate your dog your dog will dominate you. That covers a large section of those that get bit by dogs. Just because they are domesticated doesn't mean they didn't descend from wolves. Some people will continue to piss off their dog until they get bit. Not that dogs fault. As for the remaining cases where "the dog just went crazy." I call bull feces. Something caused that dog to snap. Dogs have an overly developed sense of smell. You don't like smelly candles, how do you think your dog feels. You may like that device you bought at walmart that is suppose to scare of insects but guess what. It does so by emitting high frequency loud noise that pisses dogs and young kids who haven't lost their upper range of hearing to adult hood. There is something that you can't or won't see that made that dog turn. What makes a dog domesticated is the fact that a dog will pick up a bird in its mouth gently and bring it back to you. A dog will fight to protect a lamb that he could be eating from his ancestors who still want to eat lamb for dinner, because it makes a human happy. Right up until it turns on you a dog will even take a beating for no good reason and not bite you.

If any snake can be considered domesticated, I'd say that ball pythons are right up there near the top. If they're not actually domesticated yet, they're well on their way to being so.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

This is from wikipedia

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According to evolutionary biologist Jared Diamond, animal species must meet six criteria in order to be considered for domestication:
1. Flexible diet — Creatures that are willing to consume a wide variety of food sources and can live off less cumulative food from the food pyramid (such as corn or wheat) are less expensive to keep in captivity. Carnivores by their very nature only feed on meat, which requires the expenditure of many animals.
2. Reasonably fast growth rate — Fast maturity rate compared to the human life span allows breeding intervention and makes the animal useful within an acceptable duration of caretaking. Large animals such as elephants require many years before they reach a useful size.
3. Ability to be bred in captivity — Creatures that are reluctant to breed when kept in captivity do not produce useful offspring, and instead are limited to capture in their wild state. Creatures such as the panda, antelope and giant forest hogs are territorial when breeding and cannot be maintained in crowded enclosures in captivity.
4. Pleasant disposition — Large creatures that are aggressive toward humans are dangerous to keep in captivity. The African buffalo has an unpredictable nature and is highly dangerous to humans. Although similar to domesticated pigs in many ways, American peccaries and Africa's warthogs and bushpigs are also dangerous in captivity.
5. Temperament which makes it unlikely to panic — A creature with a nervous disposition is difficult to keep in captivity as they will attempt to flee whenever they are startled. The gazelle is very flighty and it has a powerful leap that allows it to escape an enclosed pen. Some animals, such as Domestic sheep, still have a strong tendency to panic when their flight zone is crossed. However, most sheep also show a flocking instinct, whereby they stay close together when pressed. Livestock with such an instinct may be herded by people and dogs.
6. Modifiable social hierarchy — Social creatures that recognize a hierarchy of dominance can be raised to recognize a human as the pack leader.

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Based on 4, and 6 I have determined that women are not domesticated.....

j/k

I don't see how you could consider really any reptiles domesticated. They aren't really people animals in general, they don't come when called or fetch sticks or cuddle with you when you are sad, it's just not a reptile thing to do, especially not a snake thing.

Look a ball python's only real thoughts when out of it's enclosure are to get somewhere secure, or find food. They aren't thinking of playing with you or sleeping in your lap (unless they feel really secure there). These animals are not domesticated, they are very much wild animals placed into captivity. What we consider to be domestication of an animal requires, as has been said, an animal with a social structure. A mouse or a rat could be seen as a domesticated animal, they will show humans affection and play with us and what have you, however a snake is not that kind of animal, it will not feel a need to be close to you or anything of the sort, it would rather be... well alone and secure.

Ball Pythons (and just about every other house snake out there) are not really domesticated, they can be docile (by nature) but they are not what I would call tame, just considered tolerant but they really do NOT like to be held or out of their hide box execpt for feedings and mating.

I read someone earlier say their parrots aren't considered domesticated either and I would have to disagree. I also have a few pairs of Timneh African Greys and they on the other hand when cative bred and hand fed/raised DO enjoy being handled and in fact get mad at you when you don't pay them enough attention and give them their 6 hours a day outside of the cage. They are great with kids and other pets and would rather hang around your shoulder all day than sit on any perch, can be hand fed and can trained to do things. Thats what I would consider domesticated. Execptions to this do apply as no 2 birds are the same but the same goes for cats and dogs and they are considered the MOST domesticated animals on the planet.

I think a lot of people are mixing up the term 'domesticated' with the term 'pet'. Not every domesticated animal would be considered a pet. There are several varieties of ball python morph that could not be found in nature, designer snakes mixing a variety of different morphs. Lines or ball pythons that of necessity have been captive bred for several generations. Could they be considered domesticated?

No but are getting there.

Ball pythons are no where close to being domesticated.

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Originally Posted by JKExotics

I read someone earlier say their parrots aren't considered domesticated either and I would have to disagree. I also have a few pairs of Timneh African Greys and they on the other hand when cative bred and hand fed/raised DO enjoy being handled and in fact get mad at you when you don't pay them enough attention and give them their 6 hours a day outside of the cage. They are great with kids and other pets and would rather hang around your shoulder all day than sit on any perch, can be hand fed and can trained to do things. Thats what I would consider domesticated. Execptions to this do apply as no 2 birds are the same but the same goes for cats and dogs and they are considered the MOST domesticated animals on the planet.

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That would be me. I have 11 birds and have worked with many more, none of them domesticated. Companions yes, pets no. A lot of the birds in the market today are only one generation removed from their wild relatives. You can still find wild caught breeder pairs too, especially the AGs. That's not domesticated. There is a difference between being imprinted on humans at an early age and being truly domesticated.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Yeah not even close. Although I think that the definition that Freakie_Frog quoted for us is more rigid than most people would accept I think that BP's are way off the mark. Cats for instance are not domestic as they do not recognize a social hierarchy and they do not have a flexible diet, but your average person would say that they are domesticated because they thrive along side humans and the modern pet food industry has made a dry food that fits their dietary needs readily available to those in industrialized nations.

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I have to disagree with you here. Cats know exactly who their owner is, they are just too close minded to pay attention some times. And they have a VERY Flexible diet. Seriously, cats will eat anything. At least mine will.

They do have a hierarchy as well. I mean, what is the definition of a pride?


Sorry, this is a bit off topic. I chose No for BPs being domesticated.

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Originally Posted by Texas Dan

I have to disagree with you here. Cats know exactly who their owner is, they are just too close minded to pay attention some times.

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I have to agree, cats live in packs too. You might be thinking of a tom cat prowling around by himself, but you will usually find cats in groups.

My cat knows I'm the boss, don't mean he listens all the time. :8:

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Originally Posted by Shadera

That would be me. I have 11 birds and have worked with many more, none of them domesticated. Companions yes, pets no. A lot of the birds in the market today are only one generation removed from their wild relatives. You can still find wild caught breeder pairs too, especially the AGs. That's not domesticated. There is a difference between being imprinted on humans at an early age and being truly domesticated.

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I can trace my two adults at least 2 generations back via the captive bred breeder I got them from years ago, my two babies were born here. Although I don't necessarily disagree with what you said about AGs especially Greys from pet stores, there really are some horror stories out there. I do think a Grey can be domesticated if you start early enough and alot of the wild instincts simply disappear or in some cases when started early enough never develop. If it's paid attention to, if it has plenty of toys, and gets out enough I think they can be domesticated. Greys are also notorious pluckers, we're happy to say we havn't seen it yet. Xcross-fingersX

Nice to meet you by the way, glade to see a fellow bird brain on here. Do you have any pictures of your birds? I'd love to see them, I'll upload some baby Grey pics tonight when I get home.

Like I said, there's a huge difference between domesticated and imprinted. I've fostered orphaned raptors that were as tame as could be and imprinted on people, but I wouldn't have called them domesticated. I'm handfeeding some baby eclectus right now that are sweet as can be but still - imprinted and not domesticated.

If you've been around the bird forums, you've probably seen me. I've been staff on a couple. Here's an old thread here with a few of my birds.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=73051

I've added a few, and I had a pair of Grand Eclectus that recently went to new owners. I thought to update, but haven't gotten around to it. Nice to meet you as well. :)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Ball pythons are no where close to being domesticated.

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Prove it.

I just got my first ball python yesterday and will never consider it to be domesticated. It may show domestic qualities, but it will not be domesticated.

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Originally Posted by Texas Dan

I have to disagree with you here. Cats know exactly who their owner is, they are just too close minded to pay attention some times.

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Like I said cats don't recognize a social hiararchy. Sure they can tell one human from another and act accordingly but they do not recognize you as there leader. Like a dog will if treated properly.

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Originally Posted by Texas Dan

And they have a VERY Flexible diet. Seriously, cats will eat anything. At least mine will.

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Some cats will eat anything but those same cats will throw up or get no nutritional value out of anything but animal proteins. Big difference between what an animal will put in its mouth and what is considered part of its "diet".

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Originally Posted by Texas Dan

They do have a hierarchy as well. I mean, what is the definition of a pride?

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A pride is a group of lions, not cats. Cats were domesticated from a solitary line of felines that lived in arid conditions.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I have to agree, cats live in packs too. You might be thinking of a tom cat prowling around by himself, but you will usually find cats in groups.

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Cats do not naturally live in packs. I cats have a large enough area they will spread out. Cats have been known to form groups but this behavior is considered to be similar to snake that are found in groups. They are together because the place they are is the best place to be not because they want to be together. Another proof of this is that cats that live in packs fight constantly and get pretty serious injuries from such fights both male and female. Pack animals fight for dominance and this rarely results in injury except when its done for breading rights.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

My cat knows I'm the boss, don't mean he listens all the time. :8:

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The fact that your cat doesn't listen means he doesn't know you are the boss. He knows you are an animal that is larger than him so he sometimes listens but its based on your size and the fact that he does not know the difference not that he knows you are boss.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

The fact that your cat doesn't listen means he doesn't know you are the boss. He knows you are an animal that is larger than him so he sometimes listens but its based on your size and the fact that he does not know the difference not that he knows you are boss.

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Okay, for sake of getting off my sarcastic responses, we'll say your right. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Prove it.

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You prove they are domestic. :8: LOL

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Originally Posted by Shadera

Like I said, there's a huge difference between domesticated and imprinted. I've fostered orphaned raptors that were as tame as could be and imprinted on people, but I wouldn't have called them domesticated. I'm handfeeding some baby eclectus right now that are sweet as can be but still - imprinted and not domesticated.

If you've been around the bird forums, you've probably seen me. I've been staff on a couple. Here's an old thread here with a few of my birds.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=73051

I've added a few, and I had a pair of Grand Eclectus that recently went to new owners. I thought to update, but haven't gotten around to it. Nice to meet you as well. :)

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Ah very nice, I had a Panamanian Amazon for many years. I posted a pic of our baby here http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...185#post980185, I'll post more of the adults next week when we have our new camera.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

You prove they are domestic. :8: LOL

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No no no... Ladies first... I insist. :D

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Prove it.

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I am guessing that MarkS lives in a suburban to urban area. Now I could be wrong but that's the only excuse I can think of for a person to assume that an animal was domesticated until proven otherwise. Most of the people on the planet assume an animal is wild until proven domestic, its a much safer approach to life.

Pretty tiger....I am going to call you Tony.......oh he wants to play..........aaahhhhh

Nope. Not even close. There is no such thing as a "pet" snake. Humans have tried to domesticate every animal on the planet. With just a few exceptions like chickens, pigs, cows, horses, dogs, and cats (and in my opinion cats shouldn't even be on the list), no luck. In fact, animals that humans can't control are usually exterminated. It is truly a people planet we live on. Get along with us or die. The word tame is very confusing to most pet owners. Lots of animals won't bite you if you pick them up but that doesn't make them tame.

People have posted why they don't consider balls domesticated animals, but no one has given a reason why they could be considered domesticated.

Plenty of people voted Yes. Do you guys have a reason why?

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Originally Posted by Egapal

I am guessing that MarkS lives in a suburban to urban area. Now I could be wrong but that's the only excuse I can think of for a person to assume that an animal was domesticated until proven otherwise. Most of the people on the planet assume an animal is wild until proven domestic, its a much safer approach to life.

Pretty tiger....I am going to call you Tony.......oh he wants to play..........aaahhhhh

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And there you have the gist of the entire problem... People making assumptions without ANY burden of proof whatsoever.

ARE there any iron clad proofs of domestication? Is there a legal definition of domestication? Or is it just an arbitrary decision by whoever thinks they have the right to be the expert of the day?

Do you think snakes are non-domesticated or domesticated just because YOU think they should be ?

do they live in your domain??????? yes or no????? then that is your answer. break down the word.

Domestication implies to me that the animal perceives a benefit or receives a benefit from living with humans. Dogs are believed to have domesticated them*selves*. They saw human civilization and got close to us and began living cooperatively with us. To me, that is a crucial component of domestication. The animal and the humans are mutually beneficial to each other. Now, not all critters that are domesticated chose it. Cows. They are so domesticated now and such a large part of human culture that they don't even exist in the wild (much) any more. A jersey cow would not survive if she wandered off and decided to be wild. She would hardly consider it. The grain and the hay come from THERE. (Cow points to barn.)
So my definition of domestication depends on the ANIMAL seeing benefit from humans and the human benefitting from the animals. Snakes-- we benefit from them. Companionship, fascination, etc. I do not think the snakes see us as crucial or even important to their existence.

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

do they live in your domain??????? yes or no????? then that is your answer. break down the word.

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Ok breaking down the word doesn't get you where you are going. The problem with that line of thinking is that the word has taken on a different meaning based on its use. I mean if I ask you if your mom is domestic that means something completely different than if I ask you if an animal is domestic. The word domestic used the way its asked "are ball pythons a domesticated species?" is asking something other than does your ball python like to do things around the house. I mean if that's the question than once again, no my ball python doesn't do anything around the house. She pretty well sits in her hide all day. I can't get her to cook, clean or so much as take out the trash.

Domestication as its asked involves humans selectively breading to produce an animal that is significantly different from the wild base animal

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Originally Posted by MarkS

And there you have the gist of the entire problem... People making assumptions without ANY burden of proof whatsoever.

ARE there any iron clad proofs of domestication? Is there a legal definition of domestication? Or is it just an arbitrary decision by whoever thinks they have the right to be the expert of the day?

Do you think snakes are non-domesticated or domesticated just because YOU think they should be ?

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In this case assumptions are fine. Animals are wild until proven otherwise, not the other way around. No there is no iron clad proof or legal definition. There rarely is. Its not arbitrary, we are looking at the various definitions of the word and deciding what we think. You seem to really disagree with the assertion that they are not domestic but all you have put forth so far is the various morphs as evidence. I would have to say that morphs do not alone show domestication. I will give you that they are a result of selective breading but so far all we have done is change the colors of the animal. As it stands most ball pythons kept in captivity are no different than snakes one generation from the wild. We have not significantly changed their genetics, behavior or appearance. People will surely disagree with that last sentence but I would ask that you compare the variance in genetics of the most complicated morph from a normal to the differences between a dairy cow and a wild bovine, or a dog and a wolf.

I will definitely agree that as far as snakes go ball pythons are the most domesticated of them all. But that's not saying much.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Domestication as its asked involves humans selectively breading to produce an animal that is significantly different from the wild base animal

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I don't see that at all in many animals that have long been considered to be 'domesticated' Even a quick glance at most poultry will show that many of the ducks, geese or turkeys are NOT significantly different then their wild counterparts. In some cases, not even the paint job is different. The only difference being that some of them are living in the wild, and some of them are living in farmyards... Physically, many of them are identical.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

In this case assumptions are fine. Animals are wild until proven otherwise, not the other way around. No there is no iron clad proof or legal definition. There rarely is. Its not arbitrary, we are looking at the various definitions of the word and deciding what we think.

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Actually, animals are NOT wild until proven otherwise... I think that the main criteria should be WHERE THEY ARE FOUND IN THE FIRST PLACE....... I tend to think of animals FOUND in the wild as wild animals, however I tend to think of animals FOUND in my basement where I have been breeding, feeding and caring for them through many generations to NOT be wild animals.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

You seem to really disagree with the assertion that they are not domestic but all you have put forth so far is the various morphs as evidence.

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I've re-read my posts, and I don't see where you can even make the assumptions that you are. No, I DON'T 'really disagree with the assertion that they are not domestic' at all. That's YOUR preconceived notions that are coloring your comments. I've merely been questioning why people have been SO adamant that their snakes are wild animals. It seems to me that the main reason people have been putting forth the argument that ball pythons are NOT domesticated, is because they don't WANT them to be domesticated and for no other reason. I have not heard a reasonable argument on EITHER side of the argument about why they either should or should not be considered domesticated. Personally I would rather not label them either way until I have a more thorough understanding of what 'domestication' actually is.......

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Originally Posted by Egapal

I would have to say that morphs do not alone show domestication. I will give you that they are a result of selective breading but so far all we have done is change the colors of the animal.

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And I would put forth that this IS a good reason to suspect that they are a domesticated species. You can NOT selectively breed wild animals. Wild animals will choose their own mates. Only a domesticated animal could be forced to mate with another that was not of it's own choosing.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

As it stands most ball pythons kept in captivity are no different than snakes one generation from the wild. We have not significantly changed their genetics, behavior or appearance.

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See my earlier statement on poultry. Many of the accepted 'domesticated' lines can not be differentiated from their wild counterparts. The only difference is in their upbringing. The only real difference between captive bred ball pythons and captive bred turkeys is that turkeys have been bred in captivity for a few hundred years longer. In any kind of evolutionary timeline, that's extremely insignificant.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

I will definitely agree that as far as snakes go ball pythons are the most domesticated of them all. But that's not saying much.

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Well, except for maybe cornsnakes, kingsnakes, and several dozen other species of colubrids that have been captive bred for over a dozen generations.

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however I tend to think of animals FOUND in my basement where I have been breeding, feeding and caring for them through many generations to NOT be wild animals.

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So if you find a couple of baby foxes, they are domestic if you care for them feed them and breed them in your basement?

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I have not heard a reasonable argument on EITHER side of the argument about why they either should or should not be considered domesticated.

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Actually, I think there have been several good points, including mine above about the cooperative relationship between domesticated animals and humans. Domestication is not something that happens over the course of fifty years. It is a longer process and it is about the society of each species integrating with each other. Domestication is almost a beneficially parasitic relationship. The domesticated animal cannot thrive without human intervention and the humans depend on the domesticated species.

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And I would put forth that this IS a good reason to suspect that they are a domesticated species. You can NOT selectively breed wild animals. Wild animals will choose their own mates. Only a domesticated animal could be forced to mate with another that was not of it's own choosing.

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You most certainly can. You can grab a deer out of the wild, grab another and put them together and have them breed. Wild vs domesticated is not as simple as "Does the animal live in the wild or in someoene's house?" It is much more complex than that.

I am one of the people who would state (with certain caveats) that the royal pythons and corn snakes that are captive bred for multiple generations do qualify - or will qualify with further generations - for "domesticated" status.

Domestication criteria 1: Flexibility of Diet
Our captive-bred royal pythons are fed on a diet of commercially raised Mus musculus and Rattus norvegicus - both of which are foodstuffs that are easy to provide in captivity but are significantly NOT what Python regius is consuming in the wild. Selective breeding for ready consumption of easily obtainable foodstuffs meets the criteria of "flexible diet".
Domestication criteria 2: Reasonably Fast Growth Rate
Birth to ability to breed in a year - despite wild animals almost certainly taking longer to mature enough to successfully reproduce? I think that qualifies as a rapid growth rate, especially when compared to horses and other large hooved mammals that are considered domesticated.
Domestication criteria 3: Will Breed in Captivity
Well, I don't think it's possible to argue this one, no matter what Animal Rights groups might want to say about reptile keeping... there are multiple generations of captive-bred animals out there, and verifiably multiple-generation-captive-bred based on the visual mutations they display.
Domestication criteria 4: Pleasant Disposition
Royal pythons certainly have one of the nicest and most tractable temperaments of any snake I've ever worked with. You get the occasional biter, but generally they acclimatise well to handling... better than any domesticated Syrian hamster!
Domestication criteria 5: Unlikely to Panic
Again, this is a disposition thing - they may panic, but they don't bolt in such a way that they're liable to harm themselves or their handler; I wouldn't actually consider this a major criteria simply because many domesticated animals (pigeons, sheep, budgies, goldfish) also display panic behaviour on occasion.
Domestication criteria 6: Social Hierarchy
I don't believe this is a genuine domestication criteria. I don't think a domestic chicken thinks YOU are the head of the flock (especially if that chicken is living in a battery farm) any more than a goldfish sees you as the head of a shoal.

And one thing that the "criteria" on Wikipedia hasn't mentioned is the selective breeding for human-desirable traits OR the commercial usage of the species. We have done both of these things to royal pythons.

Now, I would say that WILD CAUGHT royal pythons absolutely are not domesticated - and until there are no further wild-caught bloodlines coming in, it is unlikely that there will be a scientifically described Python regius familiaris.

I voted no. Ball Pythons are defintely docile by nature. Some individuals are arguably tame. However, they are not domesticated quite yet. Mainly because if you left one out in you house, you might never see it again.

I will say I don't believe in the "human heirarchy-dominance" aspect as a requirement. Cats are domesticated but your can't tell one what to do or guide it. Well, I have seen video of people who demonstrate the contrary but how they accomplish that is very controversial so I am not going to count those rare instances.

I imagine if any reptile every was bread into domestication, that it would be cat-like. But I realyl don't see that happening.