Crazy, quail vs rat

Well, I decided to take a deeper look into quail for the snakes here. I can keep a constant source of quail easier than I can rodents. Plus, if I for some reason cannot produce my own during a feeding session, I have a supplier ten minutes away, who's selling for $2/bird, vs $6 per rat. Anyways, people were concerned about snakes getting "addicted" to quail, yucky poop and nutritional content. The yucky poop, well, if you give a dog kibble all its life, then suddenly toss a whole chicken at it, it's going to have some pretty nasty poop too. Turns out, snakes that are fed quail on a regular basis don't have yucky poop, it's just that their systems are not used to it. On to nutritional content. Quail have less fat, more protein and more calcium as compared to mice (adult) and rats (juvenile). Other perks to quail? Quail are sexually mature in 6-8 weeks. They lay an egg per day year round. They don't eat much (that's an opinion, I have rats and quail, and the rats seem to eat more per rat than the quail, plus food is much cheaper for poultry than it is for rats). You *DO* have to incubate the eggs yourself, however, for $50 ONE TIME cost, you will have an incubator that should give you at least a 75% hatch rate. The electricity consumption of an incubator is minimal. Add to the fact that you can stagger a hatch, so that you can put in say 10 eggs one week, then 10 the next week, and you can hold eggs for a week without loosing fertility. That would make it MUCH easier to have proper sized prey at the exact right times. Caging is insane on these birds as well, half to one square foot per bird. Plus, these birds don't need to take time to nurse, wean and take break from litters, like rats need to. Rats would produce approximately 8-12 babies per litter, and should have one litter per 12 weeks, depending on your personal ethics. That would be one rodent per week. Quail can produce one egg per day, with a 75% hatch rate, in 12 weeks you could produce 63 quail instead of the 12 rats from a single female.
And, quail are ground dwelling birds, not flying birds like some seem to think. Yes, they CAN fly, but they generally fly a short distance, then run to safety.

Add to all of this that you can butcher them for your own dinner, or eat the eggs, and, well, IMO, you've got a perfect feeder.

Anyone else have any input?

i'm hungry. bacon egg and cheese anybody??:gj:

I think quails wouldn't be very practical for people who breed their own feeders. As you said, they need a ridiculous amount of space, and most people have ball pythons because they don't require much space in the first place. :/

Well If your willing to try it and can't find anything to tell you otherwise Go ahead and try it i guess.

a 50$ incubator wont work for quail eggs they have to be turned!
they also should be fed the same feed as chickens.
also they will fly but they prefer to run!
ive bred them before also many other animals

I think quail are way cuter than rats. Go for it.

JohnNJ

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Originally Posted by nixer

a 50$ incubator wont work for quail eggs they have to be turned!
they also should be fed the same feed as chickens.
also they will fly but they prefer to run!
ive bred them before also many other animals

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they also SHOULDNT be fed the same feed as chickens.
sorry for the typo

You can actually spend $30 or less and make an incubator. And, yes, many people have used the $40 something incubators from Tractor Supply and had quail eggs hatch quite well. Sure, you can go all out and purchase a monster of an incubator (I'm buying a hovabator 1588 with autoturner and forced air for under $200), but you should get at least a 75% hatch rate with a simple $40-$50 stillair Little Giant.

Yes, they CAN be fed chicken feed. I keep quail already, I know. I, as well as numerous other people, use chicken starter or grower, with 20-24% protein with no issues.

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Originally Posted by Bettacreek

Yes, they CAN be fed chicken feed. I keep quail already, I know. I, as well as numerous other people, use chicken starter or grower, with 20-24% protein with no issues.

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ok dude here is the nutrient requirements of quail:

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/poulsc...ing_quail.html


and here is the one for chickens:

http://www.afn.org/~poultry/flkman9.htm

and when you sort all of that out youll find that alot of the requirements of the quail is some more than 2 times what a chicken requires!

dude ask around, quail breeders use chicken feed all of the time. 24% protein is absolutely fine. Breeders use it all of the time without drops in production.

You can argue specifics until your face turns blue, but if it works without sacrificing health, production or anything else, then why insist?

Eggs need to be at 99.5 to hatch, but people have incubated and hatched out from 98-103 with 100% hatch results. Wild quail aren't having wild seeds, grains, etc analysed and balanced out to a perfect increment, and they survived and thrived for years without everything being exactly on the dot.

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Originally Posted by Bettacreek

dude ask around, quail breeders use chicken feed all of the time. 24% protein is absolutely fine. Breeders use it all of the time without drops in production.

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i have bred quail for many many years when i was young and we have done that and we lost alot of quail due to it!
we have also bred rabbits, chukar, phesants(golden and ringneck), peacocks, turkeys, lots of different chickens, piegons, doves im sure i left some out.

also if you breed quail on dirt youll have serious problems! wet feed and they are done. plus they require supplements on top of feed.

besides the fact that they are not an actual food for your snake, they take up more room than rats will. they cost more to care for and maintain, take more time than rodents.

if you paying 6$ for a rodent then breed your own! switch to f/t whatever. stop buying from a pet store find a breeder!

Maybe you did something else wrong, if your quail were dying off. Any number of things may have been wrong.
They don't require suppliments... You won't loose production without suppliments.

Seriously, why be so anal and fight and kick and scream over something as stupid as absolutely specific requirements, when it's already been proven time and time again that there's nothing wrong with another method? I'm sorry that you don't personally agree, but I know that it can be done without issues, and I know that I can raise them just fine with my methods. Now can we stop fighting over something so ridiculously stupid as how you raised and lost your birds?! My personal experience has proven to me that it can be done at a much lesser cost than raising rats, and if there are no issues as to feeding them to the balls, then what does it matter? I'm sorry that you didn't have very good luck with your birds, but I seem to be doing just fine, and many others seem to do just fine without spending a fortune on special feeds, suppliments and thousand dollar pieces of equipment. Like I said, I'm sorry that it didn't seem to work out for you, but plenty of hobbiests have done just fine without the extra glits and expenses that you seem to think are a requirement.

Does anyone actually have any valid input on why or why not they may or may not work for feeding ball pythons? If there are reasons other than what is listed, I'd like to look further into it before I actually attempt to feed them to the balls here.

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Originally Posted by Bettacreek

Maybe you did something else wrong, if your quail were dying off. Any number of things may have been wrong.
They don't require suppliments... You won't loose production without suppliments.

Seriously, why be so anal and fight and kick and scream over something as stupid as absolutely specific requirements, when it's already been proven time and time again that there's nothing wrong with another method? I'm sorry that you don't personally agree, but I know that it can be done without issues, and I know that I can raise them just fine with my methods. Now can we stop fighting over something so ridiculously stupid as how you raised and lost your birds?! My personal experience has proven to me that it can be done at a much lesser cost than raising rats, and if there are no issues as to feeding them to the balls, then what does it matter? I'm sorry that you didn't have very good luck with your birds, but I seem to be doing just fine, and many others seem to do just fine without spending a fortune on special feeds, suppliments and thousand dollar pieces of equipment. Like I said, I'm sorry that it didn't seem to work out for you, but plenty of hobbiests have done just fine without the extra glits and expenses that you seem to think are a requirement.

Does anyone actually have any valid input on why or why not they may or may not work for feeding ball pythons? If there are reasons other than what is listed, I'd like to look further into it before I actually attempt to feed them to the balls here.

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lol thats funny! how about you go back to the post you made about this a month ago.
do you eat garbage and throw away food?
either way ill go back to paying 1$ a rat if i dont breed enough.

I'm glad you're so mature, thoughtful and helpful with everything. *Sigh* Back to regular programming.

Anyone have any real input about feeding quail to balls and not stories about how they couldn't raise quail? Thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by Bettacreek

I'm glad you're so mature, thoughtful and helpful with everything. *Sigh* Back to regular programming.

Anyone have any real input about feeding quail to balls and not stories about how they couldn't raise quail? Thanks. :)

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excuse me?
you need to grow up dude and stop trolling this idea that you can just feed improper diet to whatever animal you see fit.

D: whoah calm down, they are just quails!

I don't think I agree with feeding quails to BP's though. They are made to eat a diet of rodents and I think that is what you should offer. But if you are having no ill-effects from feeding quails, then be my guest.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp/...&Special=false

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Complete formula for starting turkey, quail, pheasant and chukar. Designed for starting chicks from 0 to 6 weeks of age. Provides essential nutrients for optimum development. Additional vitamins and minerals are not required. Chick starter 24%.

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http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/S...FancQuail.html

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NUTRITION: The exact dietary requirements of the Japanese quail are still controversial. Turkey starter, chicken starter or a gamebird starter which can be purchased at local feed mills, should be adequate for proper quail egg and meat production.

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Thanks for going off on a wild tangent about something that wasn't even the main topic. Maybe next time, instead of attacking someone, actually look into what you're talking about first. That could probably save a lot of time and hassles for everyone else. The whole point of the topic was to find out if the quail maybe had too much protein, or if there were any other reasons that I couldn't feed quail to ball pythons, not about your personal opinions on what you think about quail nutrition and which incubator works better for hatching quail eggs. *Sigh*
Thank you to those who were decent enough to not try to ruin a topic.

Fight fight fight

I got to ague against the quail for BPs... Ball Pythons are naturally rodent eating animals, they consume small mammals, not birds. While they can consume the bird I, personally, find an ethical flaw in changing an animal's natural diet.

But do we really know if they won't eat birds in the wild? They may predominantly eat rodents, but I don't think we can rule out that birds just may be on the menu. Other than personal ethics on wild diets vs "artificial" diet, are there any other reasons?

i made sure i had a bacon egg and cheese for breakfest today....just because of this post....also WHOOOO CARES?????????????? you give ur birds A, he gives them B....A&B can both work, A&B can both fail....anything else?

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Originally Posted by nybp

i made sure i had a bacon egg and cheese for breakfest today....just because of this post....also WHOOOO CARES?????????????? you give ur birds A, he gives them B....A&B can both work, A&B can both fail....anything else?

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My point exactly, thank you. :) Not everyone has to do it exactly the same way, as long as nothing is sacrificed. Bacon, egg and cheese does sound delicious, too bad I'm getting chicken instead.

Anyways, is there such a thing as too much protein or too little fat for snakes? I mean, I'm sure there is, but, is it likely to happen when feeding whole prey?

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I got to ague against the quail for BPs... Ball Pythons are naturally rodent eating animals, they consume small mammals, not birds. While they can consume the bird I, personally, find an ethical flaw in changing an animal's natural diet.

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erm? really?


OH that's right! I forgot there were no birds in Africa... silly me. So much for all those ground nesting species that I used to think lived on the plains. Thanks for setting me straight.

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Originally Posted by Bettacreek

But do we really know if they won't eat birds in the wild? They may predominantly eat rodents, but I don't think we can rule out that birds just may be on the menu. Other than personal ethics on wild diets vs "artificial" diet, are there any other reasons?

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Except for the fact that I specifically stated that it was I who saw the ethical problem with it, and not you or him. I was stating my own opinion, not presenting a law.

God you people are thick.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Except for the fact that I specifically stated that it was I who saw the ethical problem with it, and not you or him. I was stating my own opinion, not presenting a law.

God you people are thick.

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I'm sorry, but your domesticated/fancy rats (better known as Rattus norvegicus or the Norway or Brown Rat) are not the "natural" diet.

And maybe I do need to lose a little weight... don't judge me. Ha, anyway, yeah, don't hurt yourself falling off that horse.

[ps. As a Bp.net Veteran, I doubt that I can be considered a 'troll']

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

I'm sorry, but your domesticated/fancy rats (better known as Rattus norvegicus or the Norway or Brown Rat) are not the "natural" diet.

And maybe I do need to lose a little weight... don't judge me. Ha, anyway, yeah, don't hurt yourself falling off that horse.

[ps. As a Bp.net Veteran, I doubt that I can be considered a 'troll']

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Many people feed ASF's, Which are in fact found in Africa. Also, no one ever called you a troll?

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Many people feed ASF's, Which are in fact found in Africa. Also, no one ever called you a troll?

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That's a totally reasonable post.

I honestly just made an assumption based on the number of animals kept and the arrogance and 'condemnation of ethics' of the post that they didn't do ASF's, because it wouldn't make sense to breed them for a small number of animals, unless they're near a breeder.

The troll thing is no matter, it means nothing to me, I just don't want to have private correspondence with this person so I stated it here.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Except for the fact that I specifically stated that it was I who saw the ethical problem with it, and not you or him. I was stating my own opinion, not presenting a law.

God you people are thick.

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You don't have to be rude about it. I wasn't being rude to you. I was asking if there were any reasons other than personal ethics for not feeding quail.

It seems that really, the only thing that holds most back is that it's "not natural", but really, as Qiksilver said, most are feeding Norvegicus, which aren't the natural prey anyways, so if you're going to feed these rats instead of the real natural prey, then what's the difference? I'm sure a ball will take a ground dwelling bird in the wilds of Africa (or any bird, given the chance) just as easily as they would take a rat.
I'm not looking for personal ethics or opinions on the matter, because, well, everyone has one, but that doesn't make it "right". People could argue all day and night about what they think is right, but I want to get the solid facts and figure out if it would actually cause any type of harm to feed ball pythons quail, which, I haven't found any proof of yet. On the ethics side, there are some reasons not to, imprinting on quail and later selling the balls may cause problems for another owner, or starting balls out on quail and selling could cause problems, but that's not my concern. First, I plan to keep my adults, second, any babies would be started on rodents simply for "ease of use" for others, and, if for some reason I ever sold the adults that were imprinted on quail, I would sell them and make sure that any potential new owners knew full well that they were on quail and may never come off of them.
But, like I said, this isn't about personal ethics, it's about whether or not quail can be fed to snakes without causing any harm, and if there are any reasons (other than personal ethics) to not feed them. Who knew people would get so damned touchy over something as silly as "unnatural" diets (but still healthy, apparantly, as nobody can seem to give any real reason to not feed them).

I was not getting the impression that the ethics part had anything to do with what you feed, but rather was directly related to the manner in which you would be caring for your feeder/breeders.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by Bettacreek

But do we really know if they won't eat birds in the wild? They may predominantly eat rodents, but I don't think we can rule out that birds just may be on the menu. Other than personal ethics on wild diets vs "artificial" diet, are there any other reasons?

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Well, ball pythons don't have wings, or climb trees, so I REALLY doubt they feed on birds.

I personally would never by a snake from you if I found out you where feeding quail to them. Bird carry quite a few nasty things, even in captivity, also most of the world feeds rodents to there snakes, and don't want to spend the extra time switching snakes over to rodents after quail.

Rats are much easier, and much more time/space saving, and even more economical than quail to raise. If you want to buy a high quality poultry feed you will pay a pretty penny per 50lb bag, when you can pay 23 bucks for a bag of high quality rodent diet.

I wouldn't be worried about the natural part of it. We keep these snakes in modified shelving units, in tubs, with papertowels a ceramic bowl, and a flower pot for a hide...LOL.

The whole ethics issue was about how it was "unnatural" to feed quail... Am I missing something here? I don't see how feeding a diet that is apparantly healthier than a more common diet is unethical. The biggest concern with nutrition was that people felt that quail had less calcium, but in fact, they have more calcium and more protein than a common rat, with less fat. Most people are concerned about the high fat content of common rats, so, IMO, with the analysis, it seems like a win/win situation based on nutrition. Other issues were issues with runny stools, but once they adjust to a different diet, they don't have these runny stools. The last concern is that "they're made to eat rats", but most aren't even feeding them the rats that they would eat in their natural habitat. The whole "natural" arguement rubs me the wrong way, if you want natural balls, then move to Africa. It's not natural to have them in tanks and have them on a feeding schedule. Most things we do with captive animals are not natural, so why be concerned that the prey isn't the exact species that we think they mainly eat in the wild? ESPECIALLY considering that in the wild, they probably really WOULD eat any ground-dwelling birds, and if anything, it would be less natural to feed ONLY one food source.
So... if there aren't any valid concerns about balls eating quail, then why would that make me a bad ball owner because I want to feed them something that seems to have a better nutritional content, that won't potentially bite and injure the snakes when they're struck. (Yes, mine are fed live, and even though they're monitored, I've heard of bite stories even with MONITORED live feedings of rats). Just because someone doesn't do something exactly like someone else, does not mean that they're now a bad owner, especially when the method in question doesn't have any evidence against it. That's like anyone who feeds ASF rats saying that anyone who feeds common rats is a bad ball owner, because it's not a "natural" prey source.


Pshh, just re-read your post. Sorry for the long rant that doesn't make sense when your post is read properly. Quail have been raised just fine on it. Asking other quail breeders, they came up with the same assumption that I had, the guy apparantly did something else wrong if all of his flock died off. Either by feeding medicated food, or something else, but 24% protein chick starter is a commonly used diet for quail. ONE guy couldn't raise quail, so he blames it on the food he was using. Uncounted others have used the same type of food and have no problems with it. I use the same type, and this one guy goes off on a tangent about how I'm irresponsible and feeding garbage, simply because he couldn't manage to raise quail. Others have had great success with it, myself included, but, like I said, this one guy had a problem, so that makes everyone else irresponsible? NOBODY I've talked to so far has heard of any problems with using this feed, especially not mass die-offs, and especially not with chicks, like this guy apparantly had. There's more to his story than just feed, either he used medicated, it was raunchy feed, or SOMETHING, but it wasn't simply because 24% chick grower doesn't work on quail (because it does).

*Sigh* Sorry for the huge type-out, but seriously...

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Originally Posted by stangs13

Well, ball pythons don't have wings, or climb trees, so I REALLY doubt they feed on birds.

I personally would never by a snake from you if I found out you where feeding quail to them. Bird carry quite a few nasty things, even in captivity, also most of the world feeds rodents to there snakes, and don't want to spend the extra time switching snakes over to rodents after quail.

Rats are much easier, and much more time/space saving, and even more economical than quail to raise. If you want to buy a high quality poultry feed you will pay a pretty penny per 50lb bag, when you can pay 23 bucks for a bag of high quality rodent diet.

I wouldn't be worried about the natural part of it. We keep these snakes in modified shelving units, in tubs, with papertowels a ceramic bowl, and a flower pot for a hide...LOL.

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I appreciate the input. There are tests out there, I think they're called NPIP, that must be done if you plan to ship any eggs/birds to any other states. Very strict rules on it with quarantine and such after introduced birds. They must be done every so often, and are void if birds have been introduced. It's no guarantee, but, it beats nothing, and considering that balls can carry disease as well, and nobody tests them...
As for transitioning to rodents, valid point, except if you're only feeding the breeders quail, and if for some reason must sell the adults, would have to advertise that they were quail fed (don't most people already advertise what they are feeding on, even if it is a common feeder type anyways? Just good practice in general, IMO). But, the babies wouldn't have any issues outside of the norm if they were started on mice.

As far as economics/space/time/whatever, coturnix/japanese quail are actually extremely economical. They're one of the common ones used for meat and egg production because of their high rate of reproduction, they're quick to mature, and housing/feeding is minimal. Chick starter is generally around $15-$18 per bag. Specific gamebird food is around $20 per bag, all in 50lb bags. They are much cheaper to raise, the feeder dealers wouldn't sell them for cheaper than rats if they were so much more expensive to raise.

If I were you, I'd test it out. See if you can convert a few of your balls to quail, and if you're successful, track their digestive patterns and stool texture from week to week. Also, keep track of their weights and note any physical or behavioral changes.

Another concern would be the quality of the quail diet. People who breed rodents and want the best nutritional value for their snakes will often invest in high quality food, e.g. Mazuri, etc. Although I'm sure you have probably considered this too.

Interesting idea and thanks for sharing it.

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Another concern would be the quality of the quail diet. People who breed rodents and want the best nutritional value for their snakes will often invest in high quality food, e.g. Mazuri, etc. Although I'm sure you have probably considered this too.

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Fortunately, there's nothing wrong with feeding what I plan to feed, lol.

Thanks for the tips, I'll have to keep track.

Wow this guy comes on here and asks some info and people just flame him. Some of you are not worthy of your vetran title. If you dont have anything nice to say keep your mouths shut.

As for feeding quail to ball python there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. Verying the diet a bit is a good idea. Snakes are opportunists if they happen across a quail they will size it up and if it fits they will eat it. They dont just eat rats in the wild, anyone who believes that is deluded.

i think it just fine to feed our ball with quail..if you think quail are not clean enough,why dun u give them bath before feed to your ball,LOL..i dun know what retic keeper feed to their retic.but from my observation,they like to give rabbit etc to their rabbit..u know what,retic originated from where am i come from,and they always steal everything that can be their food,not just rabbit,but my chickens,my quails,bird and anything else..so u can feed ur ball as long as it fill their requirement,i mean feed them something they can eat,digest and poo without any problem,not something else like vege..just my humble opinion..different person has a different way,so no need to argue and fight,we just try to do our best to our ball..peace..

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Originally Posted by stangs13

Well, ball pythons don't have wings, or climb trees, so I REALLY doubt they feed on birds.

I personally would never by a snake from you if I found out you where feeding quail to them. Bird carry quite a few nasty things, even in captivity, also most of the world feeds rodents to there snakes, and don't want to spend the extra time switching snakes over to rodents after quail.

Rats are much easier, and much more time/space saving, and even more economical than quail to raise. If you want to buy a high quality poultry feed you will pay a pretty penny per 50lb bag, when you can pay 23 bucks for a bag of high quality rodent diet.

I wouldn't be worried about the natural part of it. We keep these snakes in modified shelving units, in tubs, with papertowels a ceramic bowl, and a flower pot for a hide...LOL.

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Quail are ground birds. Ball pythons do eat birds, and other small animals other than rodents in the wild as well as climb trees from time to time. They are no where near arboreal but they do climb in the wild. I have a video of my BP eating a mouse from a branch much like a tree snake would.

Its my understanding that rodents are their primary prey and I would be worried that a complete conversion to quail would result in a dietary surplus or deficit that we do not currently understand. I think doing a study would be great for the community though. If you aren't a scientist, do some reading on the scientific method and go to town. Just because you don't have a degree in biology (or do you?) doesn't mean you can't contribute to the worlds understanding of Ball Pythons.