Breeder Loaning?

How do loaner programs normally work?

I was just thinking about it and I would be really interested in doing a loaner kinda program with some one local to me.

Weather it is sending one of my males to some one or some one sending a female to me (I only have one female and I already got plans for her).

I would not be able to do a loaner program until next breeding season

How do you handle QT? I really know nothing about it, so I would like to get some feedback from people that have done it.

Did it turn out well?

How were the people involved compensated?

Who got what out of the clutch?

How did you decide to do a loaner breeding?

How did you decide who to do it with?

I have so many questions i am sure I will come up with more as the thread develops!

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How do loaner programs normally work?

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Long story shoert you send a breeder the animal you want to breed and they breed it then send your cut of the clutch and you animal back.

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Did it turn out well?

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Yes it did

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How were the people involved compensated?

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We spit the clutch.

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Who got what out of the clutch?

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50/50 split of the clutch

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How did you decide to do a loaner breeding?

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I did it with a good friend of mine

I voted that I would do it again, but I will come back later this evening to quantify that choice.

I'm headed home, so can't answer in detail right now.

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Originally Posted by hoax

How do you handle QT? I really know nothing about it, so I would like to get some feedback from people that have done it.

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QT same as always.

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Originally Posted by hoax

Did it turn out well?

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Sure!

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Originally Posted by hoax

How were the people involved compensated?

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Well, they got baby snakes....

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Originally Posted by hoax

Who got what out of the clutch?

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I got first pick, they got second pick, and then down the line. Since I was the breeder, I got the odd man out if there was one.

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Originally Posted by hoax

How did you decide to do a loaner breeding?

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People approach me... and I decide if I trust them enough.

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Originally Posted by hoax

How did you decide who to do it with?

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Mostly friends... and I lucked out with one guy that I didn't know at first out there that is now a good friend :)

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Originally Posted by hoax

How do you handle QT?

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Both of my loans last year were 60 days of QT. One loan was a female to a friend, and the other was a dinker male to a friend who had an available female.

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Did it turn out well?

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Both turned out very well - see below for more of my thoughts on this.

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How were the people involved compensated?

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Contracts were written and signed by the two parties involved in the breeder loans - and EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING was spelled out - including what my compensation would be if my animal died in their care - as a result of their care.

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Who got what out of the clutch?

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50/50 splits

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How did you decide to do a loaner breeding?

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The female that went out - the friend approached me. The dinker, I was talking to another friend and saying I didn't have an available female. They offered their female, and since her female was insanely shy, we felt we'd have better results if the male went to her.

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How did you decide who to do it with?

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Friends that I trusted

OK - here's my additional thoughts. Breeder loans should not be taken lightly and everything should be CLEARLY spelled out, contracts reviewed by both parties, ammended if needed before both sign on the dotted line.

ESPECIALLY if you're doing a breeder loan with a friend. No friendship is worth losing over a mis-understanding and hard feelings.

The female that went out - my friend kept in constant contact with me, sent me pictures of locks, the clutch, the babies hatching etc. We have decided to do a second loan this year, so my female is still with him for a second year and then she'll come back home after she lays her eggs and the eggs have hatched and get a year off.

The male contract had additional details such as - neither of us can sell the offspring for at least 3 years - since we're trying to prove out the dinker project. We lucked out in that the entire clutch were females, and so we got an even split of the girls. When the girls are breeding weight, they'll be bred back to Dad. We also have agreed that we will not share photos or get opinions on this dinker project from anyone - UNLESS we both agree on who we share it with. That is also in our contract. So - there are a few people aware of our project who are providing us feedback. It is exciting, because the girls - that would be classifieds as normals - ARE different looking - enough that one person we shared with asked me where I got them from and asked if they were a certain subtle morph and agrees that we might have something going on. So - it's exciting to see what will happen long term.

I would not do a breeder loan with someone that I knew casually and didn't know much about their collection (ie, how they keep their animals, how they conduct themselves professionally, etc).

Too many breeder loans go bad - it's best to cover yourself very well if you decide to enter into one - and especially if your animal is out of your possession, especially a male, you have to trust the person you loaned them to - that they won't be breeding to any other females in their collection behind your back and reaping more benefits than you are.

Edit - one other thing - both of my loans, the people with my animals were responsible for any veterinary care required of my animals while in their possesion (sp?) if needed.

This is imho an excellent post! And I think it should be sticky-ed if there isn't already one on breeder loans.

I haven't done any breeder loans yet, but I will only do breeder loans with friends that I know and trust. And as Robin stated, everything needs to be outlined, just in case.

I voted I never done it, however if I had the opportunity why not, well depending on whom the other party is of course.

I won't vote yet cause I haven't finished my experience but so far it's been excellent.

I was thinking about doing one but wasnt sure how to go about it, this post has been very helpful. I know it needs to be changed per breeding, but does anyone have an example of a breeding loan contract to look at?

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I voted I never done it, however if I had the opportunity why not, well depending on whom the other party is of course.

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Ditto

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Originally Posted by Nagini88

I was thinking about doing one but wasnt sure how to go about it, this post has been very helpful. I know it needs to be changed per breeding, but does anyone have an example of a breeding loan contract to look at?

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Heather has offered them up in the past, maybe she will see this.

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Originally Posted by Nagini88

I was thinking about doing one but wasnt sure how to go about it, this post has been very helpful. I know it needs to be changed per breeding, but does anyone have an example of a breeding loan contract to look at?

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I believe I have posted it before, but if you want a copy, please e-mail me and I will send it to you.

Should be a 'Bad experience but would try it again' option...

Me, I loaned out a female, was told she laid eggs, my female was returned at the next show, never heard from him again...

Currently I have a couple females of two buddies breeding.

I found out where the contract was posted...

Search functions ROCK!

Anyway, here is the post.

Take from it what you will..

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...5&postcount=12

I would do one, the only thing I would add to Robin's list is that for me I would want each of us to spring for a "clean bill of health" from the vet prior to copulation.

Once the snake came out of QT, whoever had it, would take both in, get them checked, and we would absorb the cost of our own bills.

But as noted it would really depend on the person. There are a few people I would trust, but not many.

As noted, I could send a male to a person, what is to stop them from breeding that male to myriad females, etc., or to misrepresent clutch size etc. Again... trust the person you send your animals too.

But I am neurotic (I don't let people in my snake room even - moreso people with snaks that I do not know their husbandry first hand).

Bruce

Here's what I posted about a year ago on another breeding loan thread. It's not the verbage of the contract, but shows what details are included in our contract (the two I did last year were 2 pages long).

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Mine outlined the date that the animal was turned over to the person who would be doing the breeding, what was turned over and weight. That to best of both people's knowledge, both animals were free of internal and external parasites, and clearly stated the length of Quarantine.

Who was responsible to the care of the animal (enclosure, bedding, hydration, medical care, etc) and that if any health issued arised, I would be contacted immediately. The breeder also reserved the right to terminate breeding attempts if they felt that either animal was at a health risk.

There was also acknowledgement that some things happen that are out of our control, and a value was placed on the loaned animal in the event of its death and the period of time that restitution would be paid.

It outlined feeding schedule (frequency and what would be offered).

It listed the animal that it would be bred to and how the offspring would be divided (who chose first, and who got the extra odd animal if it wasn't an even number).

It stipulated how many times the babies would feed before the babies were split and the frequency of feeding the babies.

It also named the independent, non-affliated person who would sex the offspring, and stated that the offspring I chose as well as the loaned animaal would be packaged for overnight delivery and full and complete records would be kept and turned over to me at the time of the return of the animal.

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I've never done it with bps, but have with corns, but the experience is the same. I've done it once a couple of years ago and it was 100% perfect, in that case I sent out a male.

I'm doing it again this year, where I'm receiving a male and breeding it to one of my females. I've done it as others have outlined: contract, split the babies with person doing breeding getting first pick and the odd one out in the event of an odd number, etc.

I would definitely do it again, but only with someone I trusted 10235987%.

i plan on doing a breeding loan with a friend,
i wanted,

my snake back of coarse, ONE hatchling (my choice)
and some cash.


thats it.

OR, 60% of the clutch, if i incubated, or 40% if she incubated.

I have no problem doing breeder loans. Provided its local. I wont ship anything off for just breeding. I dont even have to know the person very well i just need to know where they work and live so i can find them if they try to screw me.
And it depends on what the hatchlings are. If im interested in them i might want a couple but im not greedy. I try to make things as simple as possible.
If its a male someone wants to borrow from me ill let them take it home.
If its a female it stays with me and they can bring their male over.

i did it, i had a big normal female and a baby pastel in august so a guy i met from buying cresties had an adult male pastel, he lent it to me without hesitiation. Now i have an adult pastel female adlt spider 2 genetic striped diesel balls and a lesser. He now will have access to what ever he would like to use just for being cool with me except the deisels, lol.

KARMA

Just to ask, because I was interested in breeding my normal (since he is 100% het for albino) can a female only be bred to one male for her lifetime? Or can multiple males mate with one female throughout her life?

I'm very confused on the matter :confused:

females can be bred to as many different males that they will lock with throughout there lives. many breeders use different males each season.

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Originally Posted by Darkice

I have no problem doing breeder loans. Provided its local. I wont ship anything off for just breeding. I dont even have to know the person very well i just need to know where they work and live so i can find them if they try to screw me.
And it depends on what the hatchlings are. If im interested in them i might want a couple but im not greedy. I try to make things as simple as possible.
If its a male someone wants to borrow from me ill let them take it home.
If its a female it stays with me and they can bring their male over.

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That's way too casual for me, personally. Do you ask them about their QT process? Do you QT their male at your home if they bring to you? Signed contracts?

Brave, brave woman if you don't even have to know them very well.

Guess I'm way overprotective of my animals to just let someone take home one of my animals if I don't know them very well. :confuzd:

I think the breeder loans are a fun idea and I'd love to do a few in the coming years, provided I know and trust the person.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That's way too casual for me, personally. Do you ask them about their QT process? Do you QT their male at your home if they bring to you? Signed contracts?

Brave, brave woman if you don't even have to know them very well.

Guess I'm way overprotective of my animals to just let someone take home one of my animals if I don't know them very well. :confuzd:

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Of course ill check their set up and make sure they know what they are doing. Im not just going to give my pets to anyone off the streets. When doing breeder loans you basically getting free animals and its worth the risk. You can get new morphs that would cost you money otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Darkice

Of course ill check their set up and make sure they know what they are doing. Im not just going to give my pets to anyone off the streets. When doing breeder loans you basically getting free animals and its worth the risk. You can get new morphs that would cost you money otherwise.

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I don't think that my animals are worth ANY risk. If I don't know you, and know your collection and experience level, then I won't entrust my animal to your care (you in the general sense, not you specificially).

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I dont even have to know the person very well i just need to know where they work and live so i can find them if they try to screw me.

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Do you have written contracts with people that you lend your animals out to? Do you trust them to be able to tell if your animal is sick or stressed? That bolded part is what would scare the bejesus out of me. That just seems too risky to me. I have way to much invested in my animals.

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And it depends on what the hatchlings are. If im interested in them i might want a couple but im not greedy. I try to make things as simple as possible.

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When doing breeder loans you basically getting free animals and its worth the risk. You can get new morphs that would cost you money otherwise.

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Sounds like you are doing breeder loans in the first quote to help others out - and you still feel it's worth it to risk YOUR animals to someone you don't even know that well?

My two breeder loans last year were with two people that I trust like no others - and STILL we had contracts that left nothing to chance - no small detail wasn't covered. I'm even repeating a breeder loan with one of them (who has my female) and we're writing a new contract for THIS breeding - not going "we'll just extend the current contract". And I TRUST this person. But it's best to make sure that we are both on the same page with our understanding of the terms of the loan.

For example, my female got a very mild RI after about a month in this person's care. And they rushed her to their vet. Their vet was amazed that they even picked up on the fact that she had one, because it was hardly even detectable - but this person is soooo attentive to their animals, that at the very FIRST sign of trouble, didn't dawdle. I dare say that they were more concerned about it than I was - because I trusted them enough to know that it wasn't their fault - in fact, the vet said that the stress of moving across four states (we met half way) and adjusting to a new home was the most likely reason she developed it.

Before BOTH of my breeding loans, the people that had my animals even took my animals and theirs that were breeding to mine to their vets for complete work ups after their QT periods to include fecal exams to make sure that neither animal had internal parasites before they were ever paired.

Perhaps I'm just too anal about my animals and who I trust them to. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Clyde Frog

Just to ask, because I was interested in breeding my normal (since he is 100% het for albino) can a female only be bred to one male for her lifetime? Or can multiple males mate with one female throughout her life?

I'm very confused on the matter :confused:

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BP's are hoe's they don't even ask each other's name!

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

As noted, I could send a male to a person, what is to stop them from breeding that male to myriad females, etc., or to misrepresent clutch size etc. Again... trust the person you send your animals too.

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So is that what's going on with Les? And now you're distracting me with seven beautiful eggs from Lu? :no:

Haha. Just kidding. So far so good, right Bruce? :sweeet:

Personally speaking, I've done two breeder loans so far. One was with a gecko and went fine. The other is currently ongoing with two ball pythons. No problems with either. But we also had/have contracts that both parties had significant input on and that were signed.

I would never personally do it with someone I wasn't very trusting of or not friends with. And even then I think a good, detailed breeding loan contract is needed to fend off any possible issues. I think we've all seen one or two longtime hobby friendships crash and burn because the parties involved thought they didn't need to set out in writing what was transpiring... It can get really ugly.

I voted I've never done a breeder loan, but a very good friend of mine just bought a pinstripe and a pastel male, so I will most probably loan one of those next season.
We haven't discussed how to split the clutch, but we will probably go 50/50 as far as it's possible, in either money or babies, all depending what he wants.

I've done breeding loans, and yes, the two most important things are 1) do it with someone you trust. 2) Draw up a contract you both agree on. I've done loans before and was very pleased with the results. I almost did another loan with someone, and when I didn't agree to the terms of the contract THEY drew up cause I thought it was unfair, I backed out. No signing, no obligations. I just took my snake and didn't participate. Don't do it if you don't think it's fair.

99.9% guaranteed to go bad. BG even knows this and has still done it.:taz: Never again

I've done several breeder loans and rarely has it worked out well. The one time it worked out well I got several nice snakes after we split the clutches. Other times I've gotten nothing because the breeding didn't take, fed someone elses snake for 2 years with no clutches produced and once received back a dead snake. Over all I'd say it's just not worth it.

Would I do it again? Maybe, if the conditions were right. There are just too many variables to say absolutely yes or absolutely no.

I have one particular individual I have been working with the past few years. Never had a problem...don't plan on stopping anytime soon.

You just have to lay some rules with the individual/s you are working with. Get to know them...bring up scenarios that you may encounter and discuss how that would be handled. Be familiar with the other breeders facility and husbandry techniques. Look at their other animals. If they are hesitant to do so, then I wouldn't be doing any loaning. It is all about trust. If need be, make a contract... Don't just jump into a breeder loan.

I've had them go both ways... one really bad experience and several great experiences.

Justin

I've never done a loan, but would consider doing one provided i found another breeder i trusted and we had terms and a contract we could agree too.

While the possible results may be great, its not something i would take lightly. I dont think i'd ever send out one of my females.. I'd rather the male come to me, etc.

I had a horrible experience with the 1 breeding loan I did, and will NOT do it again, and would recommend anyone thinking about it, don't do it.

Here is the major part of the story, my female went to a "friend" in March, the breeding started in November, clutch laid in May. Deal was 1 male pastel for every 4 eggs laid. Female laid 4 eggs. I got my pastel male in Feb of the following year at 70 grams. Needless to say, I have not talked the person that I did the breeding loan since, and since, they have stopped doing snakes all together. Oh yeah, and I was told that my female "died" so I did not get the female back. I found out later that this "man" did it to numerous people the same year. Really HURT my feelings that this happened. I don't wanna throw the name of the person out there, but I will tell you his first name is TONY.

I will never send any of my snakes anywhere because of this experience.

Jason