Substrate and Temps

First, the green carpet isn't working (odor) and I want to switch substrate. I've read that newspaper is not that absorbent and doesn't help with odors.

So, best choice for odor control and humidity:
Aspen, Coconut Bark, Desert Snow, Cypress

Second, the green carpet suppresses the temp. For example, the UTH temp is 108 and the surface temp of the green carpet (temp gun) is 92. The snakes can't get under the carpet so there's no concern.

If I switch to a substrate that they can burrow under the temp will be much hotter on the glass than on top of the substrate. How do you compensate? The UTH has to be hotter to get the surface temp where you want it, even with a t-stat. What's the solution?

Thanks.
JohnNJ

Carpet is a bad substrate for snakes because it holds bacteria even after you wash it.

The best substrate I've found, after trying many different types, is a layer of aspen on a layer of newsprint paper. The paper allows you to see when liquid messes were made and also lets you just roll up and toss. :)

With any substrate, aspen or otherwise, you should always place the thermoMETER probe on the glass right over the UTH. Get that temp at about 93-94, then the temp on the substrate will only be about 1-2 degrees cooler. Substrate depth should only be just enough to cover the floor without bare spots, since BPs aren't avid burrowers like corns. If they burrow, it's because they want to get warmer.

Try those recommendations out and see how it goes. Good luck.

Like she said above me - I use a couple layers of papertowels with the substrate over it and with my probe for the thermometer under the papertowels and shoot for a degree or two higher than what I want Stan to be on. Works great.

I use Slate tile in all my herp enclosures, it is the easiest to clean, not too smooth, not too rough and still looks very natural and good. Also transfers heat pretty good as well, not to mention it's not really expensive at all either.

So I'm guessing that the snakes do not try to get under the newspaper.

What about feeding? Do they ingest the substrate much? I read in another thread that some people put down a paper towel or newspaper to feed on and then remove it.

Anyone have a preference for something other than Aspen?

Thanks.
JohnNJ

I've been using cypress and it works pretty well for my guys. I haven't seen them ingest any of it at all, but even if a small piece or two went down I don't think it'd be an issue. They ingest some of their substrate in the wild, I'm sure.

The LPS didn't have cypress when I was in last so I ended up with a bag of aspen. I hope I like it as well as the cypress!

v

Of course they'll go under the newspaper...if they're the type that want/likes to do that. One of my males has been nicknamed 'commando snake' by my BF since he prefers going under the paper to any hide I've tried him with. :)

This is why you place the probe down there - to make sure they aren't contacting a surface that's too hot in case they decide to go. As for probe attachment... well, I just use suction cups with the probe wired to them and put them back where they belong when they've been moved. Having a temp gun really helps in those cases to double check that the temps are still proper and the off readings are just because the probe was moved. :)

Ingesting substrate is no big deal for an animal that ingests bones, teeth, hair and the like. Just make sure you have no sharp pieces in the enclosure (the main reason I stopped using cypress) that could hurt them in or outside their mouth.
As far as other substrates, I've heard that the 'Desert Snow' brand has had some good reviews, but I don't use it because it looks too much like Carefresh (which is a dusty musty disaster for any animal). The coconut bark and other bark types can have big pieces and get moldy easily. As I said before, I've tried a lot of substrates with my first two snakes before landing on Aspen and staying with it. :D

Oh I will second the molding bark! I ran low on cypress and mixed in some "reptibark" chips from a friend and would occasionally find nice little blue moldy bark pieces in there. It wasn't a huge pain to scoop out the area but I'd rather not mess with it. The bark was also super dusty. I also found that the bark chunks weren't as "comfy" for my snakes. My bigger girl would get pink spots and indentations on her belly from the big chunks. I like the softer shredded cypress and aspen for this reason.

v

i have the same problem. i have a 20 gal long glass tank, and the substrate is on top of 1 single sheet of paper towel and just enough cypress mulch to cover the bottom, and i have to have the temp over a 100f for it to be atleast 80 on the coolside. i use 2 uth on each side. i tried all kinds of substrate but they all do the same. the probs to the thermostat and thermometers are all sitting ontop of the glass under the paper towel and cypress mulch. is there a substrate that lets the heat rise from the bottom to the top of the substrate. sorry to high jack, but i think thats what he is encounterting too.

Umm... a quick comment on that setup, MUSTANGGTANDGSXR: You shouldn't have the thermoSTAT probe inside the tank. That really messes up your temps! What you do is place the stat probe UNDER the tank right on the UTH, then the thermoMETER probe goes Inside on the glass right over the UTH. Yes, your t-stat will have to be set higher, but since it's the digital thermometer reading you want, that's what you follow.

And, for two UTHs I hope you're using two separate t-stats or a Herpstat II or Pro. They need to be controlled apart to get the right temps. Hope that helps ya!

I have the aspen now so I'll try it this weekend when I clean the tank. I want it smelling nice for Super Bowl Sunday. I'll let you know how it works out.

Thanks.
JohnNJ

A quick follow-up question...How thick should my substrate be? I am using Cypress (about 1 1/2 inches on the hot side incase of burrowing, and 1 inch on the low side) is this good? thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by c.nash

I use Slate tile in all my herp enclosures, it is the easiest to clean, not too smooth, not too rough and still looks very natural and good. Also transfers heat pretty good as well, not to mention it's not really expensive at all either.

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Wow :weirdface

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chaase321

A quick follow-up question...How thick should my substrate be? I am using Cypress (about 1 1/2 inches on the hot side incase of burrowing, and 1 inch on the low side) is this good? thanks

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Two inches or so all the way around should be fine.

I cleaned to tank and put the thermometer probe on the glass above the UTH. I put a sheet of newspaper over the probe and aspen (1 to 2 inches) on the newspaper. I have the hide on top of the UTH.

The probe reads 99 degrees at the hottest spot (gets lower as you move away from that spot). I took a reading on the top of the aspen with an infrared temp gun and it read mid 70's.

Does the temp gun work on aspen?
Does it take a while for the aspen to heat up?
Will the heat build up inside the hide?

I'm going to put another probe in the hide, on top of the aspen, when I get home tonight. I'm curious to see what that reads before I open the hide and use the gun again.

Thanks.
JohnNJ

I put another probe in the hot side hide. The temp of the probe under the newspaper, right on the glass above the UTH, is 97 degrees. The temp of the probe in the hide sitting on top of the aspen is 75 degrees. The temp gun read 82 degrees, which is warmer than yesterday. I'm not sure how to read this.

If I make the UTH hotter to warm up the aspen I run the risk of a burn if the snake burrows.

Anyone have any ideas? The newspaper is folded over so it's like two sheets. Is that too much? Maybe the aspen is too thick. Not sure where to go with this.

Thanks, JohnNJ

make the substrate thinner under the hide or remove it all from under the hide. i was having the same problem and i wanted the natural look so i put newspaper and covered it with cypress mulch. i removed the substrate from under the hide only and put the probe inside the hide against the newspaper. that way he can have the correct temp and no worries of burrowing.

Hi,

The general rule is to adjust so that the highest temp the snake can encounter (under the newspaper in this case ) so it does not exceed 95f then adjust the depth/ type of substrate until the temps inside the hide on top of the substrate are at the 90-94f level.

Looks like I took too long to type this. :D


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

adjust the depth/type of substrate until the temps inside the hide on top of the substrate are at the 90-94f level.

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The probe and temp gun should show the actual temps on top of the aspen, right?

And everyone plays this little game of add/remove the aspen to get the temps right every time they clean out a tank? There has to be a better way.

JohnNJ

once you do it a few time it will get easier and easier.

You want to know the temp UNDER the substrate right on the glass. That way, you can make sure it doesn't go above 95, as Dr Dell said. Then, the temps on top of the substrate will be about 2-4 degrees cooler, which is just right.

BPs don't really need deep substrate. I just give them enough to cover the paper without bare spots - about one finger joint depth. Seems to work well here. :)

It's not there yet. :(

I removed most of the aspen from under the hides so now there's two layers of newspaper and just enough aspen to cover it.

93 degrees on the glass - 78 degrees on top of the aspen in the hide.

The only other option is to remove one layer of newspaper. I doubt this will raise the temp 12 degrees so I may just have to raise the temp over the recommended 95 degrees.

I probably missed it, but what are you using to control the temps? Is the probe for that control outside the tank directly on the heat source? These things can make the temps vary a lot.

Also, the temp the t-stat is set for is almost always going to be higher than what you have inside the tank! Don't think that you're going 'too high' because the stat is set at 103 or something...if that's what it takes to get the inside temps on the glass to be right, then that's what it takes.

Removing a layer of paper should help as well. Let us know if things are still way off and we'll see what else might be out of whack. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Argentra

I probably missed it, but what are you using to control the temps? Is the probe for that control outside the tank directly on the heat source? These things can make the temps vary a lot.

Also, the temp the t-stat is set for is almost always going to be higher than what you have inside the tank! Don't think that you're going 'too high' because the stat is set at 103 or something...if that's what it takes to get the inside temps on the glass to be right, then that's what it takes.

Removing a layer of paper should help as well. Let us know if things are still way off and we'll see what else might be out of whack. :D

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There are two UTHs - small hot side, larger cool side. They are controlled by rheostats and they do not fluctuate more than 1-2 degrees.

The two Acu-Rites are inside the tank with the "outside" probes on the inside glass bottom of the tank.

There is a newspaper laying on the bottom over the probes. Picture a Wall St. Journal or NY Times type newspaper just folded normally. In effect there are two sheets of paper.

I have aspen on the newspaper. Initially I had too much so I removed some. It had no effect on raising the temp in the hides.

Last night temp on the glass was 93 and temp inside hide was 78. I raised the UTH temp a few degrees and will check the hide temp later.

Thanks.
JohnNJ

I just checked it again.

Probe on glass is 94. Probe on aspen, inside hide, is 83.

I don't think anything will change until I remove one layer of newspaper.

Thanks.
JohnNJ

Hi,

That's really strange. :weirdface

I use two sheets of newspaper in my tubs and the heat gets through fine. :confused:

Have you checked the thermometers side by side to make sure they read the same (not that I think that accounts for a ten degree difference )?


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Have you checked the thermometers side by side to make sure they read the same (not that I think that accounts for a ten degree difference)?

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I have both Acu-Rites in the tank, across from each other. The one probe is under the newpaper & aspen, the other is above.

The inside temps (unit temps) are one degree apart so I have to assume that the probes are relatively close in accuracy. The temp gun had a similar reading.

Maybe my local newspaper is thicker than most. I'll make the change on the weekend and let you know.

Thanks.
JohnNJ

What is the ambient room temperature? Try and get it to at least 75~80 degrees, 85 degrees is optimal.

Just had my son check the Acu-Rites:

Probe on glass is 100. Probe on aspen, inside hide, is 85. :confused:

have you figured this out yet?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MUSTANGGTANDGSXR

have you figured this out yet?

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Nope.

I set up a new 20GL tank today. I insulated the sides and back, sealing it up with aluminum tape. I put a small Ultratherm UTH on one side and the larger Ultratherm on the other (cool) side. I put two Acu-Rite probes on the glass on each side and covered them with one sheet of newspaper. I put just enough aspen on the newspaper so that I couldn't see it. I put the hides directly over the UTH's. Using the standard Home Depot sliding rheostats to control the temps.

Got the new tank and old tank to read 95 on the hot side and 85 on the cool side. The probes on top of the aspen (in the hides) continue to read 10+- degrees less than the ones under the newspaper, not the 2-3 degree difference that was quoted here.

I have six Acu-Rites and one Taylor. They all read within a degree of each other. UTH's on the new tank (Ultratherm) are different from the ones on the old tank (ReptiTherm/ZooMed).

I have accepted the fact that I will need to keep the temp around 100 degrees on the hot side to get the temp in the hide to 90. I will keep the cool side temp around 87.

This was a frustrating affair and I'm glad it's over. Next I'll work on humidity. Thanks for the support.

JohnNJ

Hi,

Actually I think it might be worth trying not using both aspen and newspaper. Both work well as a substrate on their own - what advantage is there for using the two in combination?

Is it easier to clean or something?


dr del

It helps some people with cleaning; they can just lift up the newspaper along with the substrate and trow it out.

Hi,

Ah ok.

I just do that with the plain newspaper - what does the aspen bring to the party?


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

I just do that with the plain newspaper - what does the aspen bring to the party?

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I wanted the aspen to help control the smell. I read that newspaper does not absorb and does nothing for the odor.

I don't really care about the newspaper. I was just following the suggestions. I guess I'll try aspen alone at the next cleaning and keep the glass temp around 95 on the hot side.

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in." - Godfather III

Hi,

Well you're perfectly right about newspaper not controling smell of absorbing very well.

But then I replace it totally everytime they poop or pee so that doesn't really matter much in real terms.

Hope you get it sorted.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnNJ

I wanted the aspen to help control the smell. I read that newspaper does not absorb and does nothing for the odor.

I don't really care about the newspaper. I was just following the suggestions. I guess I'll try aspen alone at the next cleaning and keep the glass temp around 95 on the hot side.

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in." - Godfather III

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thats what i did. i removed the paper towel and just set the uths to 94f and 84f. now i just have cypress mulch and if its not hot enought for them on top theyll have to burrow. now im at peace knowing that if they burrow they wont burn themselfs. good luck and dont get discouraged.

Precisely. The whole reason for setting the probe for the thermometer against the glass is to keep track of and control the hottest temp. If it's not perfect on top of the substrate and they want to get warmer, they'll burrow. The very fact that they do this means you want the temp at the glass (or plastic) to be a safe level.

Not sure why you have that extreme difference of temps from glass to substrate top...that's strange. Have you tried placing the tank on a layer of foil to help spread the heat? Sometimes UTHs get concentrated hot spots and won't heat evenly. Just a suggestion. :)

But, regardless, I would get the temps on glass to no higher than 95 and just go from there. Don't worry as much about substrate temps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Precisely. The whole reason for setting the probe for the thermometer against the glass is to keep track of and control the hottest temp. If it's not perfect on top of the substrate and they want to get warmer, they'll burrow. The very fact that they do this means you want the temp at the glass (or plastic) to be a safe level.

Not sure why you have that extreme difference of temps from glass to substrate top...that's strange. Have you tried placing the tank on a layer of foil to help spread the heat? Sometimes UTHs get concentrated hot spots and won't heat evenly. Just a suggestion. :)

But, regardless, I would get the temps on glass to no higher than 95 and just go from there. Don't worry as much about substrate temps.

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this the the 1st most direct answer anyone here has given. thanks

Do you live in a cold house? I do and I know it is hard to keep the temps right in my tubs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Have you tried placing the tank on a layer of foil to help spread the heat? Sometimes UTHs get concentrated hot spots and won't heat evenly. Just a suggestion. :)

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Funny you said that. I picked up a roll of Reflectix at Lowes today during lunch. I'll be trying that next.

JohnNJ

i switched from newspaper to aspen shaving and havent switched back all 14 of my snakes love it and its awesome for temps, humidity and cleanlyness . . . i use UTH aswell and havent had any problems, all have perfect sheds and no eatin/stress problems

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnNJ

Funny you said that. I picked up a roll of Reflectix at Lowes today during lunch. I'll be trying that next.

JohnNJ

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how did the reflectix work?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MUSTANGGTANDGSXR

how did the reflectix work?

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I'll work on it again over the weekend.

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Precisely. The whole reason for setting the probe for the thermometer against the glass is to keep track of and control the hottest temp. If it's not perfect on top of the substrate and they want to get warmer, they'll burrow. The very fact that they do this means you want the temp at the glass (or plastic) to be a safe level.

Not sure why you have that extreme difference of temps from glass to substrate top...that's strange. Have you tried placing the tank on a layer of foil to help spread the heat? Sometimes UTHs get concentrated hot spots and won't heat evenly. Just a suggestion. :)

But, regardless, I would get the temps on glass to no higher than 95 and just go from there. Don't worry as much about substrate temps.

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I'm getting a tank setup and my temps are:
Warm side glass (UTH) - 94.5
Warm side substrate in the hide over the UTH - 86
Ambient (cool side 5 inches above substrate - 81.5

Cool side is still changing, but as long as the cool side substrate(?) is around 82, I should be good, right? Otherwise, those temps are pretty good?

Appolion, those are good temps, sounds like a good set up.

One thing I would suggest across the board, though. As was mentioned earlier, many UTHs have a problem with not heating evenly and creating hot spots in the tank which leads to gradient problems. I prefer flexwatt for this very reason. The way it is built is like a heating element in a space heater, but with a lot more resistance, so it won't get quite as hot. It will heat pretty evenly, though. The problem is that you have to have it on a stat or it will create a hotspot that will burn. For a 20G US tank, I would suggest the 4" flexwatt running along the hot side's far outside edge. That alone should create a decent temp gradient as long as you keep one hide against that wall. And the best part is that it uses only 8 watts per foot, so energy savings are great!

Bloodsong

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnNJ

So I'm guessing that the snakes do not try to get under the newspaper.

What about feeding? Do they ingest the substrate much? I read in another thread that some people put down a paper towel or newspaper to feed on and then remove it.

Anyone have a preference for something other than Aspen?

Thanks.
JohnNJ

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I like coconut bark.
I get compressed blocks from the garden center that you soak to make come apart.
So far I haven't had any problems with mold etc. or feeding. My snakes really like it.
Ambient humidity is pretty low up here, usually 15-20%, so for me keeping the humidity up is hard to do. The coconut really soaks up the water and releases it slowly. Helps alot for shedding.

Other than that I use newspaper.
its fast and easy when you are cleaning over 40 snakes

I finally got around to putting the Refectix under the two tanks. I checked the temps with an infrared thermometer and a wired probe.

Temps of probe on glass (inside tank)___________94.6_______99.9
Temps of probe on substrate (inside hide)_______78.6________81.9
Infrared range on top of newspaper & aspen___85.2-88.6___83.5-88.0

The infrared thermometer will not take a correct reading of the glass. One tank has one sheet of newspaper under the aspen and the other has two sheets.

One tank has a ZooMed UTH which emits heat. The other tank has an Ultratherm UTH which says it emits infrared heat (doesn't emit heat but heats objects).

The last thing I'll try is removing the newspaper and just using a thin layer of aspen. I'll set the temps so the probe on the glass reads 93-95. That's the best I can do.

Thanks for playing along.

JohnNJ

PS - the snakes are thriving. Eating f/t mice every 5 days, pooping weekly and very neat one piece sheds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Argentra

With any substrate, aspen or otherwise, you should always place the thermoMETER probe on the glass right over the UTH. Get that temp at about 93-94, then the temp on the substrate will only be about 1-2 degrees cooler. Substrate depth should only be just enough to cover the floor without bare spots, since BPs aren't avid burrowers like corns.

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This is the most clearly I've seen it spelled out. Thank you! It's been the substrate depth, thereby reducing heat reaching the snake, that's been the trickiest thing for me to deal with. Could've sworn I'd read somewhere that BPs burrow (not just in the wild, but as pets, into substrate), so they need an inch or 2 of substrate. Newspaper plus ¼" sure beats the 1-2" of burrowing substrate I've seen recommended!

As an update, mine regularly push the aspen out of the way and lay directly on the glass.

JohnNJ