Problems with KS.com

Anyone else have major problems with ks.com? I heard about a guy who had some animals listed there and they banned him for something. Then another guy bought those animals and listed them so they banned him too! Anyway, I posted about how a well known breeder from Alabama said he freezes the pythons he doesn't want to keep. My reply was "That kind of comment lets us all know your in it for the money and not for the animals or hobby" and they banned me. :colbert:

Anyway, I like it here better anyway :banana:

Whatever happened to freedom of speech?

I've heard of some people having issues with all their rules. Personally I just don't like how the site is set up

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Originally Posted by llovelace

Whatever happened to freedom of speech?

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Kingsnakes TOS is really strict but they seem to enforce it arbitrarily on and don't care who they piss off. In their minds they are the only show in town worth going to and that kind of attitude is exactly what is going to have them lose a LOT of business.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=81317

I keep seeing things like this and I have just one question. What is keeping someone from starting up an alternative? I know it would take time to get off the ground, but why not? Beats letting them continue to be 'the only one in town', doesn't it??

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Originally Posted by grammie

I keep seeing things like this and I have just one question. What is keeping someone from starting up an alternative? I know it would take time to get off the ground, but why not? Beats letting them continue to be 'the only one in town', doesn't it??

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I believe Fauna is the alternative... and this site

This site is much better and I've met some people from here at the Birmingham show and they were true animal lovers, not just someone wanting to cash in before the bottom falls out.

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Originally Posted by southb

Anyone else have major problems with ks.com? I heard about a guy who had some animals listed there and they banned him for something. Then another guy bought those animals and listed them so they banned him too! Anyway, I posted about how a well known breeder from Alabama said he freezes the pythons he doesn't want to keep. My reply was "That kind of comment lets us all know your in it for the money and not for the animals or hobby" and they banned me. :colbert:

Anyway, I like it here better anyway :banana:

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I combed the smiliey list for the "beating a dead horse" animation.

Everyone is aware of how KS operates. Jeff B. makes money from his site, and folks make money by selling their animals through his site. Period.

If it was my forum, I'd ban you too for posting that kind of hearsay without hard evidence.

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Originally Posted by snakewrangler

I combed the smiliey list for the "beating a dead horse" animation.

Everyone is aware of how KS operates. Jeff B. makes money from his site, and folks make money by selling their animals through his site. Period.

If it was my forum, I'd ban you too for posting that kind of hearsay without hard evidence.

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Hard evidence? It happened to me buddy. How much evidence do you need? For starters it's not hearsay when it's true. I've only found out about them in the last week. It's not a problem if you make money and love your hoddy at the same time, but if you breed a pastel to a normal and you get three pastels from the clutch and freeze the rest....what does that sound like? Doing it only for money is not the way it should be done. We are talking about live animals here. I hunt anytime I get a chance but I eat whatever I kill. It's the same thing when someone just kills an animal for the rack and doesn't use as much of the animal as he can. Usually when someone gets ill like this it means they are the ones doing it. I'm a breeder, but I love these animals and only if one is born with a bad defect do I ever put it down, and when I do I take it to the vet and spend $25 to have it done the right way. Not just thrown into a freezer. Where do you stand?

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Originally Posted by snakewrangler

I combed the smiliey list for the "beating a dead horse" animation.

Everyone is aware of how KS operates. Jeff B. makes money from his site, and folks make money by selling their animals through his site. Period.

If it was my forum, I'd ban you too for posting that kind of hearsay without hard evidence.

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I disagree with you. He was voicing his opinion after someone commented on how they practice the hobby...no reason to be banned...no need for hard evidence either.

To everyone who sells BPs:

I am a potential customer, and I don't like KS. I don't use KS. I don't look at KS classifieds.

You won't get any extra business from me or people like me by paying KS to post ads. I much prefer places like BP.net and looking at breeders own personal websites. I can't count the number of individually owned and operated websites that I was linked to in people's siggys on the forums here.

Just a thought, for when you consider your own personal marketing options.

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Originally Posted by snakewrangler

I combed the smiliey list for the "beating a dead horse" animation.

Everyone is aware of how KS operates. Jeff B. makes money from his site, and folks make money by selling their animals through his site. Period.

If it was my forum, I'd ban you too for posting that kind of hearsay without hard evidence.

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The OP says he was banned for critisizing a breeder that admitted to freezing unwanted babies. How is that hearsay?

Careful who you defend buddy. Freezing of baby snakes just because they are not in future breeding plans is animal cruelty and illegal.... And I promise I would blow the whistle on anyone that does this.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Freezing of baby snakes just because they are not in future breeding plans is animal cruelty and illegal.... And I promise I would blow the whistle on anyone that does this.

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Got any proof of this?

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

The OP says he was banned for critisizing a breeder that admitted to freezing unwanted babies. How is that hearsay?

Careful who you defend buddy. Freezing of baby snakes just because they are not in future breeding plans is animal cruelty and illegal.... And I promise I would blow the whistle on anyone that does this.

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im pretty sure its not illegal and they sell them ive seen them for sale on some venomous forum. from what i remember the ad was for king cobra food.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

The OP says he was banned for critisizing a breeder that admitted to freezing unwanted babies. How is that hearsay?

Careful who you defend buddy. Freezing of baby snakes just because they are not in future breeding plans is animal cruelty and illegal.... And I promise I would blow the whistle on anyone that does this.

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Do you disagree with culling?

You can cull without killing. I sell the normals that I do not want, and as a matter of fact last year I donated over ten animals to the local school system where I live for the science departments there. I completly understand as I said before if the animal is born with something wrong with is like a stuck open jaw etc and you need the animal put down, but just outright killing the animal for "only" being normal is wrong.:tears:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Got any proof of this?

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Nope.

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Originally Posted by nixer

im pretty sure its not illegal and they sell them ive seen them for sale on some venomous forum. from what i remember the ad was for king cobra food.

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Dont know what to say. Always assumed something like killing normal male ball pythons just because they may not be desirable to the breeder would be against the rules.... but I guess if they are in fact used as food for another species and not just thrown away, that might be different.

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Originally Posted by snakewrangler

Do you disagree with culling?

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In the event of a deformed snake? NO, I do not disagree with culling.

In the event of a dealer wanting to get rid of a new baby because it doesn't have the right pattern just to throw it out? Yes I disagree with this.


Mike

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Nope.




Dont know what to say. Always assumed something like killing normal male ball pythons just because they may not be desirable to the breeder would be against the rules.... but I guess if they are in fact used as food for another species and not just thrown away, that might be different.



In the event of a deformed snake? NO, I do not disagree with culling.

In the event of a dealer wanting to get rid of a new baby because it doesn't have the right pattern just to throw it out? Yes I disagree with this.


Mike

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personally i dont support this but some ppl would say the same about rats and mice and toads feeder geckos and all the other feeder items out there.

this is a fine line here because most animal rights places dont want to kill furry animals and dont want us to have snakes because of this, but at the same time we have to realize that nature is wall nature its pretty much survival of the fittest.

i wouldnt sell my snakes for feeders but im going to go out on a limb and say that alot of snakes do

I've been browsing KS on a daily basis for about 6 years. Based on what I know of that site and the way that Jeff operates it, I was guessing that the OP was banned because he criticized someone for a particular practice without any evidence.

I am not saying that freezing snakes is ok or necessary in any way to maintain high quality stock. I am saying that if one was to make that sort of accusation in a public forum, they better be able to back it up with something other than "I heard..."

I think the OP dropped this accusation with no evidence and got banned from the KS forum.

I read that myself friend.

can you show us the thread you read this on?

Can you tell us who this well known breeder is?
I've recently moved to Alabama (little over a year ago) and I wasnt' even aware of any well known breeders being based in Alabama~

Did this person have a reason for freezing the extra normals? Was it as food for another species or just to get rid of the unwanted animals? I live in Alabama now and so I know for a FACT that your unwanted normals can be wholesaled to the pet stores~ not for very much money~ but a little $$ is better than no $$ and a freezer full of garbage your not feeding to something else. I know it for a fact because I wholesaled out every single male~ normal and the hets as normals to two local pet shops myself this year. It wasn't a lot of money~ ......but it was better than nothing and only left me feeding and trying to sell the more valuable females...............

So~ WHO in Alabama is well known AND dumb enough to admit to freezing off unwanted stock AND dumb enough to freeze them off rather than wholesale them out? I'd sure like to know who my neighbors are.

this thread in and of itself violates the TOS of BP.net doesn't it? mods?

mmm no not really.

Granted, there is a fine line between bashing the site and having an opinion on the site. So, until it turns into a bash fest, I don't see anything wrong with anyone voicing their opinion on another site :)

edit:
Just also wanted to add - that's just my point of view at the moment. The staff discusses threads like these and if a majority of the staff wishes to pull the thread, then we will.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Freezing of baby snakes just because they are not in future breeding plans is animal cruelty and illegal....

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Animals are legally considered property, and are treated as such. You can kill any animal you own, for no reason whatsoever, as long as it is done humanely (and humanely killing animals in the US has a VERY broad definition, but I'm not 100% sure that plain freezing to death is legally humane).

Animal cruelty laws are there to protect animals against torture, they have absolutely zero legal right to life.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, but these are the facts as I understand them and don't want anyone reporting people for something that is actually legal.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Animals are legally considered property, and are treated as such. You can kill any animal you own, for no reason whatsoever, as long as it is done humanely (and humanely killing animals in the US has a VERY broad definition, but I'm not 100% sure that plain freezing to death is legally humane).

Animal cruelty laws are there to protect animals against torture, they have absolutely zero legal right to life.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, but these are the facts as I understand them and don't want anyone reporting people for something that is actually legal.

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What? You mean you don't want others to force their views and mores upon their fellow man? Are you sure?

That's some awfully independent thinking there boyo.

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Originally Posted by llovelace

Whatever happened to freedom of speech?

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It went down the crapper long ago :mad:.Now its only CERTAIN members can voice thier opinion.In my opinion the people from kingsnake(owners) only care about the money they make thats why they allow IBD infected breeders to sell there :mad:.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

It went down the crapper long ago :mad:.Now its only CERTAIN members can voice thier opinion.In my opinion the people from kingsnake(owners) only care about the money they make thats why they allow IBD infected breeders to sell there :mad:.

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Now now Joe, I don't think it's their job to weed out the scumbags. How would they?

And OF COURSE it about the money. That's why the site it there, why berate Jeff for having it for the money? He never said it was for the good of herpdom, it's his friggin business, that thing he makes his living off.

They're unfair but they're also the biggest game around. If I can make it over there anyone who really wants to can as well.

I've had posts deleted, years ago when that henyan scumbag was trying to make me look bad, but I violated their TOS.

It's not like anyone is forcing people to go there.

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Originally Posted by Nate

I don't see anything wrong with anyone voicing their opinion on another site

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O boy i wish everyone felt this way Nate :P.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Now now Joe, I don't think it's their job to weed out the scumbags. How would they?

And OF COURSE it about the money. That's why the site it there, why berate Jeff for having it for the money? He never said it was for the good of herpdom, it's his friggin business, that thing he makes his living off.

They're unfair but they're also the biggest game around. If I can make it over there anyone who really wants to can as well.

I've had posts deleted, years ago when that henyan scumbag was trying to make me look bad, but I violated their TOS.

It's not like anyone is forcing people to go there.

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This may be true Wes but when ever someone shows you some proof(on the IBD infected breeder) wouldnt you want them off your site because it might effect it?

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Originally Posted by joepythons

This may be true Wes but when ever someone shows you some proof(on the IBD infected breeder) wouldnt you want them off your site because it might effect it?

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Yes, but then again....

I agree in spirit but I also see why they don't.

They provide the format, we must decide for ourselves which users of that format are worthy of our dollars and support.

Would you want them telling you who you HAD to buy from? That would be the next step if they told you who not to buy from.

I'd rather have it be my choice and no questions about it.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Yes, but then again....

I agree in spirit but I also see why they don't.

They provide the format, we must decide for ourselves which users of that format are worthy of our dollars and support.

Would you want them telling you who you HAD to buy from? That would be the next step if they told you who not to buy from.

I'd rather have it be my choice and no questions about it.

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I see your point but what happens when a newbie gets burned on there.Then tells others that kingsnake knew that breeder was bad.Word of mouth travels faster these days.Its a no win for either side i guess :(